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P-A-T technique

Old 8th Mar 2012, 05:43
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P-A-T technique

I have been reading a few CAA UK books on flight trainnig, & found they use the P-A-T technique for climb / descends (power, attitude, trim), and A-P-T.

Those days I was taught the SHoT technique (probably RAF syllabus) - Select (power & attitude) - Hold - Trim.

I was wondering, what happened to the SHoT technique? Looks like it's replaced by P-A-T?
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Old 8th Mar 2012, 07:54
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I actually use both, SHoT does not tell you which order to do things, PAT tells you to do Power first then attitude, and APT tells you when levelling from a climb to select attitude then WAIT with power, just using SHoT, trainees tend to Select attitude AND power without waiting for speed to build.
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Old 8th Mar 2012, 09:40
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Wasn't PAT SHoT?

Pardon my silliness, but is it really necessary to disect flying an airplane to this level of micro instruction? Aren't pilots taught to fly the plane (rather than it flying them) and then triming out the control forces? Pilots should be multi tasking at least some of the time, and once familiar with the plane, anticipating some things, like a half a turn of the trim wheel at certain times.

With all these acronyms (and I have complained about that before here) the poor pilot spends more time trying to remember the acronyms, and how and when to apply them, and forgets to fly the plane!

When I write Flight Manual Supplements, I write checklists as required, which I expect to be used by the pilot, at the appropriate phase of flight, I avoid acronyms as much as I possibly can!
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Old 8th Mar 2012, 09:46
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DAR its just an intial learning promt they don't fly round doing it all the time.

PAT the CAT you daft ****. Was one I used to use with some which made them smile.

power attitude trim - check attitude trim.

Once they were doing it properly it was never mentioned again.
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Old 8th Mar 2012, 09:55
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I do a lot of advanced teaching and it is amazing the number of pilots who do not use the correct techniques for climb/descent entry and level, most common is that they get to TOC, level off and immediately set cruise power, with the result that the aircraft then takes an age to get to cruise speed and they also spend ages trying to trim it out, the acronyms might be seen by some as needless, but for most students, correctly applied, they WORK.
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Old 8th Mar 2012, 10:05
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as fox points out PAT the CAT isn't particularly good to use once you get past training aircraft but gets them thinking along the right lines.
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Old 8th Mar 2012, 10:05
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And "TOC" is "trim overspeed cruise"?

You have to remember that the Queen stopped into Canada a few times, smiled and waved, said: "Canadians, dis is how youse are to talk good....", waved again, and left. So, we don't get the constant training in refined use of English, or an understanding of all of the acronyms, as those in the UK. We just muddle along in an illiterate condition, and go flying without reading anything!
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Old 8th Mar 2012, 10:16
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TOC = Top of Climb, an acronym that most pilots who have been in aviation for any length of time will be familiar with.
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Old 8th Mar 2012, 10:49
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Okay. I can usually recognize the top of the climb... When I've been at altitude for a while, I know it must have happened a while back. I just never thought there was an acronym for it!

I suspect that there might be a bit more formality and organization to piloting, either now, or on the left side of the Atlantic, I'm not sure which. My flying in the UK is limited to only a ferry back in 1986, and a delightful flight last spring with a PPRuNer, but that was very relaxed.

Perhaps "new" flying instruction incorporates these little details, and I just missed it back in the 70's. I'll keep reading, maybe I'll learn something!

But, I still would like PPRuNe to provide an acronym list for out of towners!
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Old 8th Mar 2012, 11:05
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Perhaps "new" flying instruction incorporates these little details, and I just missed it back in the 70's.
Well I learnt in '73 and there were plenty of TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms) around then, possibly more around with ex military which there tends to be a lot of in the UK.
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Old 8th Mar 2012, 14:58
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Originally Posted by Pilot DAR View Post
Okay. I can usually recognize the top of the climb... When I've been at altitude for a while, I know it must have happened a while back. I just never thought there was an acronym for it!

I suspect that there might be a bit more formality and organization to piloting, either now, or on the left side of the Atlantic, I'm not sure which. My flying in the UK is limited to only a ferry back in 1986, and a delightful flight last spring with a PPRuNer, but that was very relaxed.

Perhaps "new" flying instruction incorporates these little details, and I just missed it back in the 70's. I'll keep reading, maybe I'll learn something!

But, I still would like PPRuNe to provide an acronym list for out of towners!
I find it kind of ironic that a guy with a acronym in his own PPRuNe handle is complaining about the use of an instructional acronym on an instructor forum.

While to somebody with 6000 hours the idea of an acronym for going from straight and level to climb sounds silly what about the student on their second hour ever in an airplane. How would you explain the correct order of actions to a student in a simple and easy to remember way ?
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Old 8th Mar 2012, 15:58
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Hahaha!

his own PPRuNe handle
Yup, I gotta give you that one! In fairness to those who would have no plausible way of knowing, in Canada (but not the U.S.), "DAR" stands for Design Approval Represnetative, a Transport Canada Aircraft Certification Delegation. Were I to be in the U.S. it would be "DER".

And no, I certainly don't claim to be qualified to give instructors instruction on instructing! I just remember the terrible time that I had remembering those (few, at the time) acronyms on how to fly a plane. I could eventually remember VOR, NDB, and DME (ususally 'cause I was too lazy to say or write the whole thing), and then came GPS, and my mind was big enough to hold that too. But then someone said GUMPS, and I'd be halfway along downwind not taking time to put the wheels down, while I was trying to remember if GUMPS was for downwind and HASEL for stalls, or the other way around! It was easier to just use the checklist printed for the plane, and remember good airmanship, and it all seemed to work out fine!

But, Intructors, if the acronyms help the new pilots, by all means!
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Old 8th Mar 2012, 18:53
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Firstly, I agree that the nemonic should only be of use whilst the student pilot is learning the basics of how to fly. I don't think any pilot, including one at skills test phase, should still be thinking about the 'order' used in configuring the aircraft.

All that said, I personally prefer the SHT method as the 'hold' bit can be used to emphasise that trimming cannot be completed until the aircraft is in a steady state. In my book, there are too many students who chase the trim because they haven't sorted-out the aircraft.
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Old 8th Mar 2012, 20:26
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While to somebody with 6000 hours the idea of an acronym for going from straight and level to climb sounds silly what about the student on their second hour ever in an airplane. How would you explain the correct order of actions to a student in a simple and easy to remember way ?
*
Well,
I usually ask them to think about what happens going up and down a hill in a car, which sorts out the attitude and power. Of course the steepness of the slope is chosen by the pilot, not imposed by the geography, but it does seem to get the message across. For the trim, it is a question of not then having to push or pull in order to hold the attitude. Of course, for non drivers I have to change the analogy, but I find students tend to remember what they should be doing once they have understood the reason behind the action. All part of the preflight briefing, no acronyms required.
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Old 9th Mar 2012, 02:53
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So would P-A-T or SHoT technique be better?
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Old 9th Mar 2012, 04:40
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A-P-T for the climb and P-A-T for the descent is my preferred method because it clearly lays out the order of the key fundamental factors required to properly fly the aircraft.
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Old 9th Mar 2012, 06:58
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"A-P-T for the climb"

- You establish attitude for the climb before applying the power necessary to maintain that attitude and airspeed in the climb!!??
- Hope you don't use that technique on a go-around!

Last edited by Fostex; 9th Mar 2012 at 08:05.
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Old 9th Mar 2012, 08:02
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PAT and APT

They were part of the instructing medium in the late fifty's when I was a wee lad, so have stood the test of time.

Tmb
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Old 9th Mar 2012, 08:16
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One big part missing...LOOKOUT then PAT/APT!
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Old 9th Mar 2012, 09:13
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Who says they get to look inside when they are patting the cat or for matter if there is anything to see even if they do
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