What happened to the 2X EFATO thread ?
Thread Starter
What happened to the 2X EFATO thread ?
It seems to have disappeared........
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A popular thread dissappears without explanation, has this ever happened before on pprune
Mods an explanation would be nice as there was a balanced and interesting discussion going on there.
Mods an explanation would be nice as there was a balanced and interesting discussion going on there.
Moderator
The thread was deleted by the guy who started it, not the mods; no reason was given.
Feel free to continue discussing EFATO/PLATO in another thread..
Just for my tuppence I emphasise to students that the problem with turning back isn't just the loss of height, but the chance of disorientation and low level downwind turn effects. We had one here a few weeks ago turned back, stalled, went in nose first, the aircraft (an Eagle 150) broke in two; occupants survived but the instructor had horrific injuries.
Feel free to continue discussing EFATO/PLATO in another thread..
Just for my tuppence I emphasise to students that the problem with turning back isn't just the loss of height, but the chance of disorientation and low level downwind turn effects. We had one here a few weeks ago turned back, stalled, went in nose first, the aircraft (an Eagle 150) broke in two; occupants survived but the instructor had horrific injuries.
Unstallable? Not the Eagles I've flown.. They aren't that dramatic about it, and when stalling at height you may not realise you've stalled until you glance at the VSI and see the rate of descent. Not a pleasant thing to happen close to the ground. The glide ratio of a greasy elephant doesn't help much either.
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The turn back has always been a regular discussion. One of the best sensible discussions I heard was at an Instructor seminar by on track.
Points brought up.
1. RAF used to train the turn back but had more aircraft lost due to training for it than actually it saved. This was with highly experenced QFI's instructing.
2. The height which you can turn back successfully is related to aircraft performance.
What a super cub can get away with is completely different to say your average flying school heap.
And some of the motor glider types it was said from 500ft they could do a full circuit.
3. There are many variables which will alter at what height you will be successful from.
4. Luck plays a huge factor.
Now personally if the donk fails the aircraft has now become the property of the insurance company. The air frame is disposable, I will use it in any manner that will minimise any damage to the soft bits of meat that it contains. Personally I wouldn't consider turning back as an option until I had started turning crosswind.
As with all emergency's if you have a cunning plan of what you would do things generally are more successful if you stick to it. So if you have planned to always go straight ahead and possibly where you have the best fields you will 99% of the time have a better outcome than if you make something up on the fly.
Points brought up.
1. RAF used to train the turn back but had more aircraft lost due to training for it than actually it saved. This was with highly experenced QFI's instructing.
2. The height which you can turn back successfully is related to aircraft performance.
What a super cub can get away with is completely different to say your average flying school heap.
And some of the motor glider types it was said from 500ft they could do a full circuit.
3. There are many variables which will alter at what height you will be successful from.
4. Luck plays a huge factor.
Now personally if the donk fails the aircraft has now become the property of the insurance company. The air frame is disposable, I will use it in any manner that will minimise any damage to the soft bits of meat that it contains. Personally I wouldn't consider turning back as an option until I had started turning crosswind.
As with all emergency's if you have a cunning plan of what you would do things generally are more successful if you stick to it. So if you have planned to always go straight ahead and possibly where you have the best fields you will 99% of the time have a better outcome than if you make something up on the fly.
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The thread was deleted by the guy who started it, not the mods; no reason was given.
Mad Jock's comment
"The air frame is disposable, I will use it in any manner that will minimise any damage to the soft bits of meat that it contains."
Sums it up very well. You are descending, and all you can do is endeavour to maintain control and aim for the bit of the surface that will cause you the least injury, damge to the aircraft is not a primary concern.
"The air frame is disposable, I will use it in any manner that will minimise any damage to the soft bits of meat that it contains."
Sums it up very well. You are descending, and all you can do is endeavour to maintain control and aim for the bit of the surface that will cause you the least injury, damge to the aircraft is not a primary concern.
Thread Starter
I insist all my students verbalize a pre takeoff brief whaich goes as follows C150/152/172
In the event of an engine failure/fire before lift off I will
-close the throttle
-apply max braking
-raise the flaps
-advise ATC
-complete emergency checklist
In the event of a an engine failure/fire after lift off I will
-lower the nose to the gliding attitude
-If below 1000ft AGL glide straight ahead only turning to avoid major obstacles. If I am allready on crosswind consider turning towards the airport (not runway, just the nearest unobstructed level area)
-fuel off
-mixture ICO
-mags off
-advise ATC
-master off after flap deployment
The checks are done as a flow which starts at the fuel selector and makes a counter clockwise around the panel.
When verbalizing the checks I get them to lightly touch each control in order to build muscle memory. IMO your only hope in surviving this kind of emergency is to have automatic reactions that have been cemented in the brain by consistantly repeating them prior to every takeoff.
In the event of an engine failure/fire before lift off I will
-close the throttle
-apply max braking
-raise the flaps
-advise ATC
-complete emergency checklist
In the event of a an engine failure/fire after lift off I will
-lower the nose to the gliding attitude
-If below 1000ft AGL glide straight ahead only turning to avoid major obstacles. If I am allready on crosswind consider turning towards the airport (not runway, just the nearest unobstructed level area)
-fuel off
-mixture ICO
-mags off
-advise ATC
-master off after flap deployment
The checks are done as a flow which starts at the fuel selector and makes a counter clockwise around the panel.
When verbalizing the checks I get them to lightly touch each control in order to build muscle memory. IMO your only hope in surviving this kind of emergency is to have automatic reactions that have been cemented in the brain by consistantly repeating them prior to every takeoff.
You really make people trot out all that load of cr@p before each take-off?
Bolleaux. It's "STOP, switches off, get out, then f*** off upwind!" Titting about with raising flaps or stamping on the brakes and bursting the tyres won't help if there's a fire licking around your ankles.
Not sure that it would EVER be of much use, in fact.
FFS - KISS!!
In the event of an engine failure/fire before lift off I will:
*
*
*
*
-complete emergency checklist
*
*
*
*
-complete emergency checklist
Not sure that it would EVER be of much use, in fact.
FFS - KISS!!
Last edited by BEagle; 2nd Jul 2010 at 19:12.
You really make people trot out all that load of cr@p before each take-off?
Remember these are students that need to learn, once you're experienced enough you can run a mental checklist.
But only because you have said it out loud enough times.
Why? A single engined spamcan is hardly an airliner.
Who on earth talks about "Completing the emergency checklist" if there's a damn big bang and fire starts licking around your feet at 45 knots?
Or is this some dumb thing you have to spout to keep your ambulance-chasing lawyers at bay?
If they'd known about such turgid nonsense, Orville and Wilbur would probably have stuck to fixing bikes.
Who on earth talks about "Completing the emergency checklist" if there's a damn big bang and fire starts licking around your feet at 45 knots?
Or is this some dumb thing you have to spout to keep your ambulance-chasing lawyers at bay?
If they'd known about such turgid nonsense, Orville and Wilbur would probably have stuck to fixing bikes.
Thread Starter
Beagle
I aspire to teaching all my students good operating techniques that apply to all airplanes not just "single engine spamcans". Part of that is when appropriate to the circumstances utilize an emergency checklist to verify you have not missed anything and then complete any remaining items. So for example if the engine failed on the takeoff run I would expect the student to execute the flow by memory and then when the airplane had stopped to go to the emergency checklist and complete the remaining items.That is how professional pilots in large aircraft do it. I see no reason why it should be
any different for PPL's. With respect to an engine fire on takeoff, stopping the aircraft is the priority and the memory items will cause that to happen.... at that stage vacating the passengers and then the pilot is the only additional item and is so obvious that it is not written down anywhere. Since this is a engine failure procedure as well as engine fire drill all of the emergency checks relate to the failure scenario.
My experience is if you ask the average PPL who is one year (or even a few months) after their PPL flight test "what would you do if the engine failed at 500 ft after takeoff ?", you would get a long pause with lots of umms and errrs. Pilots are not born being ready to deal with an EFATO, it has to be taught, and cramming before the flight test may get you through the ride but it will not do much to prepare you for the rest of your flying career. Taking one minute to brief and then practice the actions before every takeoff on every one of your PPL training flights will burn the actions into your brain forever.
However I like to think that my students are the least likely to actually have to deal with the EFATO scenario because I teach them to pay attention to what really matters on the walk around, teach real world fuel planning, and how to do a proper run up including understanding what the engine is actually telling you as well as ensuring the engine is delivering full static RPM at the beginning of the takeoff run..... or in other words eliminate the pilot induced engine failures caused by ignorance or "It is only a spamcan" hubris
I aspire to teaching all my students good operating techniques that apply to all airplanes not just "single engine spamcans". Part of that is when appropriate to the circumstances utilize an emergency checklist to verify you have not missed anything and then complete any remaining items. So for example if the engine failed on the takeoff run I would expect the student to execute the flow by memory and then when the airplane had stopped to go to the emergency checklist and complete the remaining items.That is how professional pilots in large aircraft do it. I see no reason why it should be
any different for PPL's. With respect to an engine fire on takeoff, stopping the aircraft is the priority and the memory items will cause that to happen.... at that stage vacating the passengers and then the pilot is the only additional item and is so obvious that it is not written down anywhere. Since this is a engine failure procedure as well as engine fire drill all of the emergency checks relate to the failure scenario.
My experience is if you ask the average PPL who is one year (or even a few months) after their PPL flight test "what would you do if the engine failed at 500 ft after takeoff ?", you would get a long pause with lots of umms and errrs. Pilots are not born being ready to deal with an EFATO, it has to be taught, and cramming before the flight test may get you through the ride but it will not do much to prepare you for the rest of your flying career. Taking one minute to brief and then practice the actions before every takeoff on every one of your PPL training flights will burn the actions into your brain forever.
However I like to think that my students are the least likely to actually have to deal with the EFATO scenario because I teach them to pay attention to what really matters on the walk around, teach real world fuel planning, and how to do a proper run up including understanding what the engine is actually telling you as well as ensuring the engine is delivering full static RPM at the beginning of the takeoff run..... or in other words eliminate the pilot induced engine failures caused by ignorance or "It is only a spamcan" hubris
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With respect to an engine fire on takeoff, stopping the aircraft is the priority and the memory items will cause that to happen.
My experience is if you ask the average PPL who is one year (or even a few months) after their PPL flight test "what would you do if the engine failed at 500 ft after takeoff ?", you would get a long pause with lots of umms and errrs.
The checklist is all well and good and should be followed where possible, but there is alot to be said for the fight or flight instinct - our own mental checklist for survival which we do not need to be taught: "The sh** has hit the fan, lets get the f*** out of this death bucket double quick!
Simples.
Last edited by Ryan5252; 3rd Jul 2010 at 00:13.
Thread Starter
Ryan 5252
If you substitute "confirm Beta lights" for "mixture ICO" and omit flaps, the flow of engine failure on the runway drill (before V1) is the same as for the transport catagory turbo-prop I fly for my day job. We brief before every takeoff so it becomes automatic. This is standard practice for every reputable operator flying large aircraft. One of the reasons professional pilots have a much lower accident rate than private flyers is because the industry has moved from ad hoc undisciplined flying styles to systematic approach that realizes humans do not think well under the sudden pressure of shocking unexpected events. Therefore preplanned and practiced actions help overcome event peralysis and make sure actions which seem obvious when sitting down at the computer, actually occur when the shyte hits the fan. A simple example of this is doing an on the runway simulated EFATO off a short field takeoffexercise. The first time the student always forgets to raise the flaps. This is because the student is mentally thinking short field take off, where the last thing you are going to do is raise the flaps on the runway. Yet if it is actually a short field getting the flaps up afer the failure, so you can get maximum braking may be the diference between stopping on the runway or going off into the ditch, particularly for low wing types.
I have found this an exallent example of demonstrating in a practicle way to the student how easy it is to forget obvious items in unexpected scenarios.
Frankly we lightplane pilots and instructors should be ashamed at the accident record of light aircraft. I personally think that a more disciplined approach is better than a "I know I will do the right thing when the bad event happens" that many light aircraft flyers use. I also strongly believe "professional" habits can be inculcated from the very beginning of training. Not "look at me I am so professional" flashery but an ordered methodical consistant efficent way to operate the aircraft in every segment of the flight.
You wrote
The checklist is all well and good and should be followed where possible, but there is alot to be said for the fight or flight instinct - our own mental checklist for survival which we do not need to be taught: "The sh** has hit the fan, lets the f*** out of this death bucket double quick!
I think you have adequately covered the .01 % incidents were the aircraft is engulfed in flame before it has even stopped. Unfortunately the accident statistics say the "lets get out of the death bucket double quick" flight response to low altitude EFATO's is to turn back to the comfort of that runway often with tragic results....
I you feel the need to further mock me, go ahead I do not care as I have explained my position and do not see any point in further comment.
Good Day
BPF
If you substitute "confirm Beta lights" for "mixture ICO" and omit flaps, the flow of engine failure on the runway drill (before V1) is the same as for the transport catagory turbo-prop I fly for my day job. We brief before every takeoff so it becomes automatic. This is standard practice for every reputable operator flying large aircraft. One of the reasons professional pilots have a much lower accident rate than private flyers is because the industry has moved from ad hoc undisciplined flying styles to systematic approach that realizes humans do not think well under the sudden pressure of shocking unexpected events. Therefore preplanned and practiced actions help overcome event peralysis and make sure actions which seem obvious when sitting down at the computer, actually occur when the shyte hits the fan. A simple example of this is doing an on the runway simulated EFATO off a short field takeoffexercise. The first time the student always forgets to raise the flaps. This is because the student is mentally thinking short field take off, where the last thing you are going to do is raise the flaps on the runway. Yet if it is actually a short field getting the flaps up afer the failure, so you can get maximum braking may be the diference between stopping on the runway or going off into the ditch, particularly for low wing types.
I have found this an exallent example of demonstrating in a practicle way to the student how easy it is to forget obvious items in unexpected scenarios.
Frankly we lightplane pilots and instructors should be ashamed at the accident record of light aircraft. I personally think that a more disciplined approach is better than a "I know I will do the right thing when the bad event happens" that many light aircraft flyers use. I also strongly believe "professional" habits can be inculcated from the very beginning of training. Not "look at me I am so professional" flashery but an ordered methodical consistant efficent way to operate the aircraft in every segment of the flight.
You wrote
The checklist is all well and good and should be followed where possible, but there is alot to be said for the fight or flight instinct - our own mental checklist for survival which we do not need to be taught: "The sh** has hit the fan, lets the f*** out of this death bucket double quick!
I think you have adequately covered the .01 % incidents were the aircraft is engulfed in flame before it has even stopped. Unfortunately the accident statistics say the "lets get out of the death bucket double quick" flight response to low altitude EFATO's is to turn back to the comfort of that runway often with tragic results....
I you feel the need to further mock me, go ahead I do not care as I have explained my position and do not see any point in further comment.
Good Day
BPF
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 3rd Jul 2010 at 00:02.
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BPF,
Apologies if you felt my post was a mockery as it was certainly not intended in that way. Rather, with due respect to you (and others on here) with significantly more experience than myself, I wanted to put my point across as I see yet - being a new PPL. As a new PPL, I felt compled to respond when you said
. I have the utmost respect for all instructors out there who are not hour building, as lets face it; they're not here for the money - but for the passion. Therefore, I have no intention of arguing a point with any, either here or at the airport. (That's not to say I won't do so in 10 years time however 
)
What I wanted to clear up was that you cannot ask a person a question and then moan about their lack of response or attribute this to a lack of knowledge as this is what I took, rightly or wrongly, from your comment quoted above. I agree entirely with following the checklist and please do not think I would ever disregard one.
I am a keen pilot and a dedicated student (I say student because I am, like everyone else, still learning). I pay close attention to all aspects of my flight, before, during and after. I pay particular attention to the cause and effect of my actions and I am constantly looking at ways to improve and further this knowledge. Therefore I regret to say that 'your' students are not alone in being the 'least likely to actually have to deal with an EFATO" - it can happen to anyone and I for one also pay attention to what my aircraft is telling me not only during the power checks, but all the way down the runway too!
I flew yesterday afternoon in the clubs PA28 - just myself and 3 year old son on board. I can tell you know, if the engine stopped on the runway I'd be stopping the role in my own manner before looking for a checklist. (I would also vacate the aircraft and get him to a safe distance before securing the cabin and performing checklist items per the POH) Equally, in the event of an EFATO I would hope to god my training kicks in and I would do as I was taught, but to be honest, my priority is getting back on the ground in one piece and I will use whatever is available to me at the time to do so.
Again, I do apologize if you felt my post was in anyway derogatory toward you as this was not my intent, but I do feel its only fair to be able to respond to your comments in a constructive way.
Regards,
Ryan.
EDIT: I should probably take the time to realise that I am not posting in the Private Flying forum, but rather the Instructor section, so I should probably take less heed when instructors talk about students, new PPLs etc. Well, I live and learn...
Apologies if you felt my post was a mockery as it was certainly not intended in that way. Rather, with due respect to you (and others on here) with significantly more experience than myself, I wanted to put my point across as I see yet - being a new PPL. As a new PPL, I felt compled to respond when you said
My experience is if you ask the average PPL who is one year (or even a few months) after their PPL flight test "what would you do if the engine failed at 500 ft after takeoff ?", you would get a long pause with lots of umms and errrs.
)What I wanted to clear up was that you cannot ask a person a question and then moan about their lack of response or attribute this to a lack of knowledge as this is what I took, rightly or wrongly, from your comment quoted above. I agree entirely with following the checklist and please do not think I would ever disregard one.
However I like to think that my students are the least likely to actually have to deal with the EFATO scenario because I teach them to pay attention to what really matters on the walk around, teach real world fuel planning, and how to do a proper run up including understanding what the engine is actually telling you as well as ensuring the engine is delivering full static RPM at the beginning of the takeoff run..... or in other words eliminate the pilot induced engine failures caused by ignorance or "It is only a spamcan" hubris
I flew yesterday afternoon in the clubs PA28 - just myself and 3 year old son on board. I can tell you know, if the engine stopped on the runway I'd be stopping the role in my own manner before looking for a checklist. (I would also vacate the aircraft and get him to a safe distance before securing the cabin and performing checklist items per the POH) Equally, in the event of an EFATO I would hope to god my training kicks in and I would do as I was taught, but to be honest, my priority is getting back on the ground in one piece and I will use whatever is available to me at the time to do so.
I you feel the need to further mock me, go ahead I do not care as I have explained my position and do not see any point in further comment.
Regards,
Ryan.
EDIT: I should probably take the time to realise that I am not posting in the Private Flying forum, but rather the Instructor section, so I should probably take less heed when instructors talk about students, new PPLs etc. Well, I live and learn...
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One of the reasons professional pilots have a much lower accident rate than private flyers is because the industry has moved from ad hoc undisciplined flying styles to systematic approach that realizes humans do not think well under the sudden pressure of shocking unexpected events.
Thread Starter
Ryan 5252
You said "What I wanted to clear up was that you cannot ask a person a question and then moan about their lack of response or attribute this to a lack of knowledge."
Actually I think I can. My feeling is for low hour pilots if the vital actions are not burned into the brain than they are unlikely to be actioned when the pressure is on. My personal experience is most PPL's have significant skill and knowledge fade after the flight test. I do not find this surprising as emergency procedures that are not regularly reviewed will fade.
You said "I am a keen pilot and a dedicated student (I say student because I am, like everyone else, still learning). I pay close attention to all aspects of my flight, before, during and after. I pay particular attention to the cause and effect of my actions and I am constantly looking at ways to improve and further this knowledge. Therefore I regret to say that 'your' students are not alone in being the 'least likely to actually have to deal with an EFATO" - it can happen to anyone and I for one also pay attention to what my aircraft is telling me not only during the power checks, but all the way down the runway too!"
So just what are you looking for in "power checks" ?
I am also curious as to what objective methods you use to determine what you describe in the part highlighted by me in red. Is it just "well it feels right" , or are you using some objective criteria like checking that the engine is actually making the POH minimum static RPM at the beginning of the takeoff roll and having a predetermined idea of a physical point down the runway where the aircraft should have attained rotation speed. Because if it is not based on soem objective criteria you are IMO fooling yourself
My experience with low houred PPL's is that their ability to make qualitative judgements on the performance or lack there of, was not very good due to their general lack of experience. You seem to think otherwise..... I hope for your sake you are right.
You said: "I flew yesterday afternoon in the clubs PA28 - just myself and 3 year old son on board. I can tell you know, if the engine stopped on the runway I'd be stopping the role in my own manner before looking for a checklist. (I would also vacate the aircraft and get him to a safe distance before securing the cabin and performing checklist items per the POH) Equally, in the event of an EFATO I would hope to god my training kicks in and I would do as I was taught, but to be honest, my priority is getting back on the ground in one piece and I will use whatever is available to me at the time to do so."
So the airplane is say accelerating through 40 knots and the engine just stops, no warning , no indication of fire, just sudden silence. Fom the above I gather you are going to stomp on the brakes and then just going to jump out of the aircraft and run around to the passenger side to unstrap your son while leaving the fuel and all electrics on, run away from the aircraft and then presumably leave your 3 yr old child unattended by the side of the runway while you return to the aircraft to "secure the cabin and perform the checklist items per the POH ".......
I would suggest a better way is to retard the throttle to idle and pull the mixture to ICO so there is no possibility the engine will suddenly roar back at full power as you are trying to brake (a possibilty with some failure modes), raise the flaps so that you are assured of maximim braking effectiveness, advise ATC so that the aircraft that is on final behind you knows that the runway is blocked and once having completed the above memory items while slowing down take 20 seconds after the aircraft has stopped to action the checklist which basically gets the aircraft systems shut down greatly reducing the possibility of a fire starting, and then get out of the aircraft and wait for help. Or in other words automatically followed the actions which you had mentally rehersed prior to takeoff and which will always effectively give you the starting point to deal with the EFATO emergency
You said: "Again, I do apologize if you felt my post was in anyway derogatory toward you as this was not my intent, but I do feel its only fair to be able to respond to your comments in a constructive way."
Frankly I did not find your comment in an earlier post
Quote Are you suggesting that without being taught to stop one is likely continue with the flight?? unquote ...very constructive.
You said "What I wanted to clear up was that you cannot ask a person a question and then moan about their lack of response or attribute this to a lack of knowledge."
Actually I think I can. My feeling is for low hour pilots if the vital actions are not burned into the brain than they are unlikely to be actioned when the pressure is on. My personal experience is most PPL's have significant skill and knowledge fade after the flight test. I do not find this surprising as emergency procedures that are not regularly reviewed will fade.
You said "I am a keen pilot and a dedicated student (I say student because I am, like everyone else, still learning). I pay close attention to all aspects of my flight, before, during and after. I pay particular attention to the cause and effect of my actions and I am constantly looking at ways to improve and further this knowledge. Therefore I regret to say that 'your' students are not alone in being the 'least likely to actually have to deal with an EFATO" - it can happen to anyone and I for one also pay attention to what my aircraft is telling me not only during the power checks, but all the way down the runway too!"
So just what are you looking for in "power checks" ?
I am also curious as to what objective methods you use to determine what you describe in the part highlighted by me in red. Is it just "well it feels right" , or are you using some objective criteria like checking that the engine is actually making the POH minimum static RPM at the beginning of the takeoff roll and having a predetermined idea of a physical point down the runway where the aircraft should have attained rotation speed. Because if it is not based on soem objective criteria you are IMO fooling yourself
My experience with low houred PPL's is that their ability to make qualitative judgements on the performance or lack there of, was not very good due to their general lack of experience. You seem to think otherwise..... I hope for your sake you are right.
You said: "I flew yesterday afternoon in the clubs PA28 - just myself and 3 year old son on board. I can tell you know, if the engine stopped on the runway I'd be stopping the role in my own manner before looking for a checklist. (I would also vacate the aircraft and get him to a safe distance before securing the cabin and performing checklist items per the POH) Equally, in the event of an EFATO I would hope to god my training kicks in and I would do as I was taught, but to be honest, my priority is getting back on the ground in one piece and I will use whatever is available to me at the time to do so."
So the airplane is say accelerating through 40 knots and the engine just stops, no warning , no indication of fire, just sudden silence. Fom the above I gather you are going to stomp on the brakes and then just going to jump out of the aircraft and run around to the passenger side to unstrap your son while leaving the fuel and all electrics on, run away from the aircraft and then presumably leave your 3 yr old child unattended by the side of the runway while you return to the aircraft to "secure the cabin and perform the checklist items per the POH ".......
I would suggest a better way is to retard the throttle to idle and pull the mixture to ICO so there is no possibility the engine will suddenly roar back at full power as you are trying to brake (a possibilty with some failure modes), raise the flaps so that you are assured of maximim braking effectiveness, advise ATC so that the aircraft that is on final behind you knows that the runway is blocked and once having completed the above memory items while slowing down take 20 seconds after the aircraft has stopped to action the checklist which basically gets the aircraft systems shut down greatly reducing the possibility of a fire starting, and then get out of the aircraft and wait for help. Or in other words automatically followed the actions which you had mentally rehersed prior to takeoff and which will always effectively give you the starting point to deal with the EFATO emergency
You said: "Again, I do apologize if you felt my post was in anyway derogatory toward you as this was not my intent, but I do feel its only fair to be able to respond to your comments in a constructive way."
Frankly I did not find your comment in an earlier post
Quote Are you suggesting that without being taught to stop one is likely continue with the flight?? unquote ...very constructive.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 4th Jul 2010 at 02:31.
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I just loved having an EFATO pulled on me. Apart from the first one I was never warned about them in advance. One trick I used to learn the drills/checklist and keep proficient with them was each time I stopped at a red light (in a car/automobile of course) was to run through the engine failure checklist.
Checklists are good if you can memorise them which really isn't that hard with a little bit of work. I once wrote down all the checked items from prestart, post start, taxi, run-up, T/O, climb-out, crosswind turn, downwind, base, finals, land, pre-shutdown & post shutdown (should have just said circuit eh) and it added up to something like 112 items. This is some 30 years ago and I still remember at least 110 of them.
I was watching a Youtube video of a guy taking his mate for a ride in a PA28 and I was shocked to see him doing the pre-start checked by reading them from a written checklist. EIGHT items (from my list) and he needed a written checklist and this was after he poured the fuel test liquid back INTO the fuel tank.
Sorry, went offtopic. I personally knew an Instructor (with a student) who experienced an engine failure at 800' on T/O (straight climbout to the training area) in the trainer "Designed by 10,000 Flight Instructors" (for you young 'uns, the PA38 ). He did a 180° turn and landed back on the runway. Having a 12,000' runway helped but he did say he lost about 500' in completing the turn. That could so easily turn into an uncontrolled spiral for an inexperienced pilot.
Totally 120% agree with you on the above quote.
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Checklists are good if you can memorise them which really isn't that hard with a little bit of work. I once wrote down all the checked items from prestart, post start, taxi, run-up, T/O, climb-out, crosswind turn, downwind, base, finals, land, pre-shutdown & post shutdown (should have just said circuit eh) and it added up to something like 112 items. This is some 30 years ago and I still remember at least 110 of them.
I was watching a Youtube video of a guy taking his mate for a ride in a PA28 and I was shocked to see him doing the pre-start checked by reading them from a written checklist. EIGHT items (from my list) and he needed a written checklist and this was after he poured the fuel test liquid back INTO the fuel tank.
Sorry, went offtopic. I personally knew an Instructor (with a student) who experienced an engine failure at 800' on T/O (straight climbout to the training area) in the trainer "Designed by 10,000 Flight Instructors" (for you young 'uns, the PA38 ). He did a 180° turn and landed back on the runway. Having a 12,000' runway helped but he did say he lost about 500' in completing the turn. That could so easily turn into an uncontrolled spiral for an inexperienced pilot.
Originally Posted by BPF
IMO your only hope in surviving this kind of emergency is to have automatic reactions that have been cemented in the brain by consistantly repeating them prior to every takeoff.
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BPF, you said that in a C152 you would expect the student to close the throttle, apply max braking and raise the flaps if there was an engine fire before 'lift off' as well as 'completing the emergency checklist'?
Sorry, but how is that 'appropriate to the circumstances'? Without an anti-skid system, which presumably your commuter turboprop has, why would 'max' braking help? Have your students ever practised applying 'max' braking just before lift off without locking the tyres and flat-spotting or bursting them? Why 'raise the flaps' - is that really going to help? It might in a PA28, but purely because the flap lever would then be on the floor and wouldn't impede egress. The tiny amount of extra weight on the tyres will make very little difference and will just make stopping more complicated than it needs to be.
As regards transferring 'big aircraft' philosophy to spamcans, when I was the Chief Instructor at a local club, we went through a process of throwing out much of the dogma which our resident 4-engine transport jet pilots had inflicted and instead focused purely on POH-mandated items. An 'abort brief' for the jet transport was wholly inappropriate for a PA28.
It made things a lot easier to teach people to fly the thing the way Mr Piper intended.
Sorry, but how is that 'appropriate to the circumstances'? Without an anti-skid system, which presumably your commuter turboprop has, why would 'max' braking help? Have your students ever practised applying 'max' braking just before lift off without locking the tyres and flat-spotting or bursting them? Why 'raise the flaps' - is that really going to help? It might in a PA28, but purely because the flap lever would then be on the floor and wouldn't impede egress. The tiny amount of extra weight on the tyres will make very little difference and will just make stopping more complicated than it needs to be.
As regards transferring 'big aircraft' philosophy to spamcans, when I was the Chief Instructor at a local club, we went through a process of throwing out much of the dogma which our resident 4-engine transport jet pilots had inflicted and instead focused purely on POH-mandated items. An 'abort brief' for the jet transport was wholly inappropriate for a PA28.
It made things a lot easier to teach people to fly the thing the way Mr Piper intended.