Ryan5252

In the event I encounter an engine during or after take off, I hope everything goes to plan. In which case you will be the first the know.

Oh pull your head out of your backside will you?

BEagle

A bit harsh there, Ryan? But only a bit as I understand your sentiment!

Faffing about with flaps below the stalling speed is pointless. 'Securing the cabin and performing the POH checklist items' when there's a raging fire? Oh purrleeeze!

"What was your husband doing when the aircraft exploded?"
"I don't know, but they found his dead fingers clutching a nice FAA-approved checklist..."
"Why didn't he just run away?"
"Some idiot told him he had to waste 20 seconds 'securing the cabin and performing the POH checklist items' first - unfortunately 19 seconds after he stopped the aircraft blew up"

The drill is easy to remember (for a fire, which will NOT always be the same as for a failure):

STOP (Even the dullest person realises that you will need to close the throttle, then brake and steer to a safe halt, surely?).
Ignition off
Switches off
F*** off (and I don't mean fuel - I mean unstrap, get out and run bravely away upwind!)

No mention of fuel off? Why? Because it can be very difficult to turn the main fuel cock off, particularly in the PA28 with that difficult latch to move first - or in a C150/152 if the cock is very stiff (to turn)... Aeroplanes can be replaced, people cannot.

K.I.S.S!!

Ryan5252

Perhaps a touch harsh I admit, but 'tis frustrating when one agree's to disagree (to each their own), but some people just can't accept that others differ in their opinion. Pointless wasting energy on such trivial matters.

Indeed I would leave him unattended by the side of the runway than stapped into an aircraft I don't trust laden with fuel.

ifitaintboeing

How about?

SECURE FLOW

M ixture ......ICO
M agnetos...OFF
M aster........OFF Ensures that the electric fuel pump is turned off
F uel............AS REQD OFF will ensure that more fuel does not pass through the firewall.

I do it every time I get out of a SEP/MEP aircraft to ensure that the aircraft is secure. It is also an expeditious, well practised flow, to secure the aircraft in the event of an emergency. Takes about 2 seconds. Simple & effective.

The fuel will depend on aircraft type, for similar reasons to BEagle; but to expand, in an emergency you should know and have practised how to operate this quickly. I wouldn't spend ages trying to sort it out though!

Skittles

Does 10 degrees of flap have any real effect on braking efficacy? Assuming you're braking heavily surely by the time you've reached the flap lever and got it up you wouldn't be going fast enough for it to make the slightest difference? Not in a C150 or similiar, I'd imagine.

I think that in the time it takes for me to clean up the 10 degrees of flap, I could have leaned the mixture, closed the throttle, fuel cock off, masters off etc etc.

Pressurised fuel + fire is something I want to be around for the least time possible.

Chuck Ellsworth

I try and refrain from reading this stuff BEagle but it is like driving by a wreck on the highway, I just can't seem to keep from looking.

Flying light aircraft is not as complex as flying large commercial aircraft and pretending that it is will only load the small airplane pilot up with stuff they really don't need to do.

Which does nothing to ensure safety.

Big Pistons Forever

I guess I am a bit mystified why this thread has become fixated on the least likely EFATO scenario that is the engine suddenly explodes and bursts into intense flame as the aircraft is acclerating down the runway. In fact I have never seen a documented case where this has happend in a simple Piper/Cessna trainer/tourer. However plenty of airplanes have experienced an engine failure while takeoff and many have ended badly. If I gave the impression that in the case of the front of the airplane is suddenly engulfed in flame than you want to stop as fast as possible and get out of the airplane than that was not my intent, although I still believe the fastest surest way to stop the aircraft during the takeoff run is to follow the steps I detailed earlier. But the reality is that the engine failure on the runway emergency will turn out OK if you stop the aircraft on the remaining runway. I think that there is a "best" way to do this and I feel it is sensible to secure the fuel and electrics before vacating an aircraft which as I clearly stated above showed no indication it was on fire.

Ultimately though I do not see this as the real issue. Human factors research clearly shows human being do not do well when suddenly presented with a unexpected shocking danger. The killer in EFATO's is not pilots being burned to a crisp on the runway because they delayed exiting the aircraft in order to accomplish a 20 sec long system securing checklist, it is crashing in uncontrolled flight after the engine fails at low altitude, often as result of failing to quickly adopt the gliding attitude, and/or loosing control attempting a low altitude turnback. The accident record provides unequivical evidence of how poorly PPL's do when unexpected EFATO scenario. I believe the average low time pilot is more likely to better handle this emergency if he/or she spent a minuite reviewing the actions they will take before every takeoff. This will put the actions to the front of the brain.

I would also like to point out that IMO the EFATO emergency is the only really crtical emergency for light plane pilots because instant correct action is required. Pretty much all the other potential emergencies will give you enough time to think before doing and IMO starting with the emergency checklist is usually the best way to address a problem which develops during cruise flight. The EFATO brief is the only emergency brief I teach to light aircraft students.

Finally I would like to comment on the idea that "big aircraft" procedures have no place in light aircraft flight training. I could not disagree more as the evolution in professional operations is to reduce traditional read then do checklist to the minumum. I follow the same philosophy using my own checklists which start with a system of flows which follow the same consistant pattern and are where appropriate are backed up by "checking" the checklist and with all of the stupid flight schoolism's removed (for example my checklist does not tell the student to release the key when the engine starts, like one school I know ). So for example my prelanding checklist has only 4 items

Fuel-------------Selector valve correctly position/quantity checked
Mixture----------Full rich
Brakes-----------Checked
Carb Heat------ as required

Rather than rejecting "proffessional pilot" methodoligies I think they should be examined and where appropriate to the aircraft and operation, be applied at the ab intio training level

Bottom line: Every airline thinks there is value in the 5,000 to 20,000 hr captain and the very highly trained first officer review the critical actions for a takeoff emergency....so why would there not be value for the new PPL to do the same thing ?

Big Pistons Forever

Ryan 5252

You seem to take great exception to my description of what you would do for an engine failure and as I clearly stated with no indications of fire

" So the airplane is say accelerating through 40 knots and the engine just stops, no warning , no indication of fire, just sudden silence. Fom the above I gather you are going to stomp on the brakes and then just going to jump out of the aircraft and run around to the passenger side to unstrap your son while leaving the fuel and all electrics on, run away from the aircraft and then presumably leave your 3 yr old child unattended by the side of the runway while you return to the aircraft to "secure the cabin and perform the checklist items per the POH "......."


This was based on your description of what you said you would do
in post No 16. So what part did I get wrong ?

hoggsnortrupert

I am not a flight instructor:

Having had the experience first hand, is one I will never forget, even now after quite some years: Even after a very significant period of time, it can still cause me some restlessness:

I agree that training is the best tool, in our case, the check list was not used, neither where the pax briefed, there just was not the time, they saw it for them selves anyway. (fire in the cockpit):

A passenger from the back was standing between us in the cockpit door way,(no door) using the extinguisher when the wheels hit the tarmac!

With training in mind, I believe it gave me the ability to use my discretion, which in our case was getting it on the ground in one piece, max reverse and max braking, fuel levers off, battery & master off and I bailed, the F/o and pax beat me out of the aircraft and I did not dawdle or second guess anything.

I came a distant second/third to 20 passengers & a F/o.

So from experience, I say training most definitely, but you dont know what type of emergency, or its severity/ or even when/ it is going to happen, it is a very fluid situation, and is dependent on many many variables:

In our case the situational timing and airborne positioning couldn't have been better:

Our choices was the Pacific Ocean beneath or the Airport 3.5 miles behind the right wing in the 4.30 position!

In summery:
YOU do not know what YOU will do, only what you HOPE you will do, to me it is do no harm to my passengers, if this means taking a short cut and using my discretion in something that has confronted me as the above did! then I agree with ????'s sentiment above, I will not be recovered with a burnt checklist in my blackened hand.

Touch wood! heres to becoming an OLD PILOT:

Chr's
H/Snort.

Big Pistons Forever

hogsnortrupert

You appear to have been flying a airline Turbo prop which implies significant flying experience. Sounds like you utilized that experince and a cool head to deal with a very difficult situation. But I would suggest if you had encountered the same situation as a 150hr PPL iyou would not have been as well prepared to know what shortcuts to take and how to use your discretion
to change/ignore the published emergency procedures. That is the challenge of flight instructors...how to develop the skills/knowledge and reactions that will prepare new pilots to deal with emergencies.

But at the end of the day the best thing you can do when bad things are happening is fly the airplane. I will have succeded as an instructor, not when the student rattles of the memory items, but when he/she utilizes pilot aids like checklist only after they have the aircraft properly under control and it is doing what they want it do.

Chuck Ellsworth

I hope you all don't think I am fixated on this issue, but no one has ever explained just when the industry made this magic jump from the days of the ignorant fly by luck pilots to today's well trained pros who are taught all the magic things to do that makes them so superior to the old school pilots of yesteryear.

From a previous post:


My question, as yet unanswered:I am curious because I wonder if I was flying when this transformation took place, and if I was flying after it took place. Because I really can not remember when or how it happened.

BEagle

And yet you then go on to say:Why inisist on briefing for something which you say has never happened?

Also, an EFATO brief must be relevant for the aircraft/runway/terrain/wind at the time. Mindlessly chanting some generic phrases like a Hare Krishna mantra serves little purpose unless the proposed actions are relevant.

"In the event a meteor strikes the runway in front of me before lift off...."

Big Pistons Forever

Beagle

Why do find it necessary to twist my words?
I did not say that engine fires never happen..... I said that "the engine suddenly explodes into a ball of intense flame on the takeoff run" where obviously you just want to get out of the aircraft as quickly as possible, never happens, a scenario that you seem to have a particular fetish for. There have been instances of fires on takeoff in small aircraft, although they are usually electrical, or a burning birds nest, and in every case I am aware of, they went out as soon as everything was shut off. Shutting down the aircraft systems after the aircraft has been brought to a quick stop, strikes me as a sensible thing to do, and can be done quite quickly as it follows the same flow as all the other checks.

In any case the principal point I was trying to make was my belief that the EFATO emergency, particularly the engine failure at low altitude, is a desperate emergency requiring an instant and correct response...... and that I believe that light plane pilots, particularly low time ones, are more likely to do the right things when the sudden, unexpected, shocking, failure occurs, if they have reviewed the drill before the takeoff. This review of critical actions is the norm in professional aviation and I think has utility when applied, appropriate to the type and operation, in the piloting of light aircraft.

It is obvious we are never going to agree so it pointless to continue this thread.

Chuck Ellsworth

AAhhh it never fails, I ask when the industry morphed from the old school inept types to the modern day experts and you end the thread.

Big Pistons Forever

I ignored your comment because it had no relavence to the EFATO thread. If you were actually intersted in a dialogue on highlighted point why did you not simply write your thoughts on the issue for comment by myself and others ?

Chuck Ellsworth

When I am trying to have a discourse with people who seem to be very defensive when asked questions I try to phrase my questions in a manner that will tend to not further irritate the person.

You obviously have not read many of my comments on these forums otherwise you would be aware that I do write my thoughts on these subjects.

Apparently there is something about me that just sends you into defensive mode every time I make any comment about your thoughts.

Therefore I will expand on my question to you.

I have been a teacher of flying for over fifty years and have been flying transport category airplanes for over forty years and I can not identify a time where we evolved from All I asked you was to give me a time period when you identified this change in how we flew airplanes.

As to instructing it is my opinion that being a good teacher of the art of flying is the highest level a pilot can aspire to.

With that as one of my goals I retired from aviation as a teacher of advanced flying and was payed very well for my services so therefore the subject is still important to me and I am interested in any belief or facts that other instructors have.

Being in control of ones emotions is a very important characteristic in a pilots makeup and if one gets stressed over comments on an internet forum it may be wise to reflect on why this is happening before you answer Big Pistons Forever.

24Carrot

Theoretically, it depends very much on air speed, if we are talking simple SEP.

In very round numbers, reducing flap by 10 degs means reducing angle of attack by 1.6 degs or less (1/2 x 1/3 x 10).

Lift=Weight at stall speed at maybe 20 degs, so 1.6 / 20 x Weight = 8% of weight, and braking friction depends directly on weight. If you are right at stall speed (ie about to take off) then 8% over 0% makes a very big difference.

At 80% of stall speed, (Lift=64% of weight), 1.6 / 20 x 80% = 6.4%, and 6.4% over 36% is a significant fraction, but if you aren't that fast to start with and also as you slow down, it soon becomes irrelevant.

Personally, I feel a pre-flight look at the surrounding fields in google earth is sadly under-recommended.

Otherwise, absolutely no comment on anything anybody else has said. At all. <retiring to shelter>

BEagle

Agree! That's why I said that an EFATO brief must be relevant for the aircraft/runway/terrain/wind at the time.......

BPE - you wrote those words, not me!

mrmum

BPF

I think I mostly agree with you, several years ago I worked for a club who were a contractor for the MOD/RAF flying scholarship scheme. For their trainees, CFS insisted we talked through a similar T/O emergencies brief. They always handled simulated EFATO exercises noticeably better than the "civvie" students or PPLs. Now you might say that possibly it was due to a higher quality student, or that they were flying several times a day, most days for a couple of weeks. But maybe, running through the scenario pre-departure actually helps.

As to getting too checklist happy in the air, in my experience, if someone with relatively low hours, gets a simulated engine failure at a couple of hundred feet, it's pretty much all they can do to remember to lower the nose and maintain a safe speed, then try and land it somewhere. Both of which are vital, they rarely have the time/capacity to start distracting themselves looking for switches or telling the tower what's happening. It does of course depend how much height they've got before it happens.

Biggles78

Sorry but I disagree with this. Goggle Earth only give you a birds eye view of the "emergency field" and not that up to date either. In my part of the world some of the maps are from 2004 and the inviting empty field is now a runway of roof tops.

This is something one cannot put a date on, maybe not even a decade due to everchanging and evolving nature of aviation and Instructing (plus the additional requirements of those who sit in Government offices and think, "Oooo, this would be a good idea to implement"; even if it isn't).

Checklists are important to know, especially the emergency ones. I have never used written a checklist since they were all committed to memory. They had to be since trying to read the proceedure to an EFATO at 500' is going to end up being a disaster. As much as I can remember I gave myself a mental brief as to the conditions and what to do in case of an EFATO but I am embarassed to say that brief never included relaying anything to any passengers. FLWOP did have a passenger brief at the 1,500' point but it never occured to include one before takeoff. Due to this thread that will now change. Thanks BPF.

As to an EFATO pre V1, in a Piper, I would be inclined to raise the flap. As previously stated to make the egress easier and not get caught on the flap handle but also to lock the flaps in place sine someone in a rush to get out is likely to step on the NO STEP sign. If flaps are down then stepping on that area helps you go down as well. Twisted, sprained or broken ankle is not a good thing.

In a Cessna, would the flaps have time to retract before the Master Switch gets turned off? Up would also be good here since there is a chance of a head contacting the down parts and if really unlucky the sharp corner/edge could make a nice gash in a running head.

However if this is a simple failure, engine stops, surges or splutters then is there the need for my imagined panic. I have taken BPF to mean that there was no engine fire on the ground in a pre T/O failure.

A different matter if the failure happens once airborne and a "controlled crash" becomes inevitable. Now the flaps stay down in the Cessna since the Master is (hopefully) off. Piper who knows but depends on the variables like if the U/C is still attached etc.

I hope this thread continues as I for one have learnt at least one thing from this and I hope I can learn more.