Multiple Instructors, what's up with that?

[gileraguy]

the web is the best place to solicit opinions, so here goes:

a couple of my rated associates reckon the flight school I used to be with was "milking" me.

This was beacuse they kept changing instructors on me.

The first change was at my request, as I didn't seem to"click" with the instructor my associate had used. Also, he took me up in a 172 when I was of the understanding theat I was going to train on the 152. His comment when I was paying for the lessoon and asked him about it, was "that I would have to fly the 172 for my Navs anyway..."

So IP 2 is Ok, I think we get along and do five lessons(3.5hrs)

Then, I arrive to do my first session of circuits and there's a new instructor. He tells me IP2 is busy training in a Banderante(?) and he will be taking me.

IP3 is not bad and I come back for my second session of circuits, IP3 breifs me and then informs me that, because of some restrictions on his license and the operation of the school, I will have to have another IP(4) for the session!

I do one session with IP4, then I miss a month and come back and I'm slotted in with IP1 again! ( I must mention here that he wears cowboy boots?)

Anyway, I do five more hours doing circuits with a guy I didn't choose and found myself losing motivation.

I change schools, find a great IP(5) and start in a PA28, then he changes jobs and the school shuts down?

maybe its my luck, but I'd love to get some unbiased IP opinions...

is four instructors in 12 hours a lot?

gileraguy.

[DFC]

If the only complaint about the training you received is that one of the instructors wore cowboy boots then the training provied can not have been that bad.

IP3 is not bad and I come back for my second session of circuits, IP3 breifs me and then informs me that, because of some restrictions on his license and the operation of the school, I will have to have another IP(4) for the session!

Seems like this instructor was not authorised to supervise first solo flights and was ensuring that you were flying with an instructor who was in the flights prior to first solo.

I do one session with IP4, then I miss a month

So again no complaints about the quality of instruction provied by any of the instructors.

Do you honestly expect "IP4" to keep room for you in their student list when you "miss a month"?

Overall I would congratulate the school for looking after you so well - change instructor at your request, line you up for solo, slot you back in after a month away and all without a single complaint from you about the quality of the training or that various instructors had different ways of doing various things.

So IP 2 is Ok, I think we get along and do five lessons(3.5hrs)

If the school was milking you, that probably would have been five lessons (5.0) hours with 3.5 hours training and 1.5 hours padding it out so that each lesson was exactly 1 hour long.

I do five more hours doing circuits with a guy I didn't choose and found myself losing motivation

The Head of Training / CFI should have formally interviewed you the first time to seek out the exact reasons why you requested an instructor change and then decided if it was a reasonable request or not. Wearing cowboy boots is not a valid reason. There should have been a record of that interview etc on your file and when paired with the instructor again you could have pointed out the error.

However, you do 5 hours training without commenting and now say that you are losing motivation.

I have to wonder how much you want to be the tail that wags the dog i.e. you want to choose who you fly with rather than leaving that decision to the experts - Head of Training / CFI because as we can see from your objection to being changed from an instructor who could not send you solo to one who could, you are not best placed to decide who should teach you.

Next thing we will have teenagers sitting on teacher interview boards for their schools (and I know lots of schools where a few terms are far more expensive than any PPL course).

Perhaps you find this a bit harsh but I can not see any complaint about the quality fo training in your post. Should you ever become a professional pilot you will have to fly with who you are told to fly with, when you are told to fly with them and unless you have a valid reason (the Captain wearing cowboy boots or not clicking with you not being suitable) then you have to be a professional about it.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

" Next thing we will have teenagers sitting in on teacher interview boards for their schools. "

No problem with that line of thinking if it is aviation related because teenagers can be flight instructors so why not have then sit on interview boards.

After all if they are mature enough to teach people to fly why not let them share their knowledge in all areas?

[foxmoth]

The main things I would take issue with here is that after your month off you then got put back - and kept with - the instructor YOU had requested to be changed from because you did not click,

I would also query

"that I would have to fly the 172 for my Navs anyway..."

, not sure exactly how things work in Oz, but no reason that I know of this should be the case.

[Duchess_Driver]

to seek out the exact reasons why you requested an instructor change

Yep - fine....no problems with that bit.....

and then decided if it was a reasonable request or not.

...utter crap.

As a student if I don't like the guy I'm flying with then I am entirely within my right to ask to change to someone who puts me at ease rather than on edge - or who I can relate to rather than someone who doesn't understand the way I learn best. If you can't or wont accomodate my request for a different instructor then my money goes somewhere else.

As an instructor, if I feel that my teaching style doesn't suit a certain individual then I have an obligation to that student and to my employer to switch the student off my schedule. This is after a discussion with the CFI/HOT and the student concerned but we should always strive to provide the best quality teaching in the best possible learning environment we can create.

Duchess

[DFC]

Glad to hear that you always have the spare capacity available with all instructors to just let students choose who they want to fly with.

Hey, why not line the instructors up and say "pick one". Great chance to avoid the one who wears cowboy boots!!

Requests for instructor changes are very serious matters and those that are deemed to be "unjustified" (for want of a better phrase) are subject to resources which are not always available and based on the student's training needs - none of which were identified in the original post.

As an instructor, if I feel that my teaching style doesn't suit a certain individual then I have an obligation to that student and to my employer to switch the student off my schedule

Head of Training / CFI comes across that and says - the student gets changed (because the instructor's ability is in doubt) and the instructor receives remedial training to correct failings in their "teaching style". Should be a one-off situation.

Instructors have to be capable of adapting to the student.

As a student if I don't like the guy I'm flying with then I am entirely within my right to ask to change to someone who puts me at ease rather than on edge - or who I can relate to rather than someone who doesn't understand the way I learn best. If you can't or wont accomodate my request for a different instructor then my money goes somewhere else.

No. As a student you are entitled to expect that every instructor will put you at ease, provide an atmosphere that you like, can relate to and will enable you to learn in the best ppssible way. If you request another instructor because of an instructor failing in any of the above then that instructor requires remedial training. If however, you simply don't like the instructor's cowboy boots then I am afraid that any instructor change will be subject to availability and the suitable progress of your training.

At a well organised, staffed and standardised organisation, the instruction provided should be consistent regardless of who provides it. Therefore, there should be little to gain (from a quality training point of view) by changing instructors.

The important thing to remember is that every time an instructor change is agreed to, the instructor who the student is leaving must have some remedial training to fix the problem otherwise you might as well give them their P45 because this is going to happen again and for every student that asks for a change, there are two that simply stop turning up.

try giving someone a P45 for wearing cowboy boots and see how much it costs you!!

[gileraguy]

I regret adding the cowboy boots line....

...as it seems to have distracted things somewhat.

I never said that the boots were the reason I asked for another instructor!

I was debriefed by the CFI after the initial lesson and I commented that I would like to try another IP. I did find one I was comfortable with.

Should I have expected to stay with IP2? or informed of any changes to HIS flying so I could re-arrange things to keep flying with the instructor I felt most at ease with?

My main point was that [my rated associatesfelt that there was something remiss in my training with that organisation, with so many instructors in a short time.

I always thought that you had one IP for ALL your instruction...thats the way it is in most of the autobiographies I have read.

I tend to agree with the following comment:

At a well organised, staffed and standardised organisation, the instruction provided should be consistent regardless of who provides it. Therefore, there should be little to gain (from a quality training point of view) by changing instructors.

so the question is thrown back on to the organisation: I was paying for lessons for, why were my instructors changed on me?

Don't miss the point that I WAS happy with IP2 and felt at ease with him. (at least until we were practicing stalls and he put a bootfull of rudder in and snapped us into a spin, but then again it was an Aerobat we were flying. It still shocked and unnerved me as it was the first spin in the A/C)

well, thats another can of worms opened.... I'll just get me coat...

[protectthehornet]

gileraguy

I am from the USA...I take it you are in England.

First off...you and your pals are right. You should not have had so many instructors in the first 12 hours or so.

It is fine to get a new instructor if you don't ''click''. I have seen some terrible mismatches in instructors/students.

I disagree with some of the comments above.

next time you try to learn to fly, go to the ''boss'' of the flying school, whether it is the chief flight instructor or the general manager. explain to him/her that you want only one instructor (phase checks aside) and that you prefer someone with a mature attitude and a good amount of experience as an instructor. And that you would prefer to cancel a lesson rather than go up with a different instructor.

One...you should only be flying one type of plane for your first 60 hours or so.

Two...Of all the types you mentioned, I feel the PA28 is the best plane to learn in...provided it is properly maintained.

Three...spend time at the airport and observe as many traffic patterns/landings (what you guys call ''circuits'') as possible.

Four...when you are learning takeoffs and landings...do not do touch and goes...full stop taxi back landings are the proper way to learn landings.

five...with an instructor...be sure to get real cross wind landing training in real cross winds. I prefer and teach such landings with full flaps contrary to one school of thought which says to use partial flaps.

be sure to read the book: "Stick and Rudder" and memorize it as you would the Bible. Like your life depends upon it...because it does.

Nothing is wrong with cowboy boots...but the worst pilots I've ever seen wear cowboy boots.

In a PA 28...either athletic shoes or business like shoes are the right things to wear.

Cowboy boots are a tipoff to me...so go with your ''gut'' and don't listen to some of these guys on the forum.

[protectthehornet]

one more thing

in addition to being the student, you are also the customer.

don't listen to this bit about having to fly with whoever you are assigned...this isn't the air force or an airline

you pay the money...you are the boss (to the extent safety allows)

[Mechta]

You think you had problems...

I was on a course earlier in the year, being trained as a UAV pilot. Over the first nineteen lessons, I had twelve different instructors!

When it came to a review with course provider, I asked if they ever had instructor meetings with all the instructors present, to standardise methods of instruction. They said that wasn't possible! Add in conflicting data between different training documents, manuals etc, plus the instructors speaking English as their second language and you can imagine what 'fun' we had when it came to the exams.

It is natural that you will click better sith some instructors than others. It is also normal that your preferred instructor won't always be available. If you could give your first and second choice of instructor for a lesson, or rebook, that would not be unreasonable, given that you are the paying customer.

Two or three instructors gives necessary variety; more than that means you are likely to go over the same stuff and slowing down the learning process.

I found in gliding that if I tried to do what one instructor taught me, with a different instructor, I would get criticised for doing it wrong. I was not alone in finding this, and it is important for instructors to be aware of each others methods. As part of the pre-flight brief it is worth decribing what you have been taught for different phases of the flight, to see if the instructor agrees or wants to see different methods.



,

[foxmoth]

A couple of interesting points here -

DFC, there is a difference between an instructor knowing his stuff and having the personality that gells with all students - he/she may know it all and be very good at putting things over, but if you have never had a student where where the two of you have not quite clicked then you have either not been instructing very long, have been very lucky, or are just too insensitive to what is going on with your students. I once had a student that ALL the instructors in the school had gone through (about 6), he had got to 60 hours and still not gone solo - these were not bad instructors and I did not teach him anything new - I just changed the emphasis and he then went on to complete his PPL.

Protectthehornet, some good points, but IMHO some are impractical and/or unnecessary, no problem with the occasional change of instructor as long as there is good standardisation within the school, though it should not be a frequent occurence.
As for

Four...when you are learning takeoffs and landings...do not do touch and goes...full stop taxi back landings are the proper way to learn landings.

- this might be fine where you are, but TOTALLY impractical at some fields, in many places you might only get 3 circuits in for an hours lessons - very inefficient and an expensive way to learn.

[S-Works]

In a PA 28...either athletic shoes or business like shoes are the right things to wear.

I prefer flip flops personally.....

On a serious note:

Four...when you are learning takeoffs and landings...do not do touch and goes...full stop taxi back landings are the proper way to learn landings

I would like to understand your thinking on that. When I teach tailwheel I do teach full stops as as any tailwheel pilot will tell you getting to a full stop and the taxi is the hard bit. Bit for a standard spam can I don't see the benefit.

[DFC]

don't listen to this bit about having to fly with whoever you are assigned...this isn't the air force or an airline

you pay the money...you are the boss (to the extent safety allows)

No. You pay the money.....you are the customer and your rights and responsibilities are limited to those of a customer. Don't get involved in the responsibilities and rights of the Seller.

Stop and think that if you think you can fly with whoever you like, it is probably more a case of the instructors flying with whoever they like and if they don't like you..........

Tell me, how does this customer who decides who they fly with pick their first instructor?.....white? black? asian?, male?, female?, non-cowboy boot wearer, blond????????

Come on, let us know the expert criteria that a student can use to corectly pick the best teacher?

Bring your 15 year old into school and tell the Principal that you want them to choose their teacher?........see what the response is

----------

Mechta,

You have highlighted some organisational failings but bad organisations usually have bad instructors. i.e. one goes with the other.

Choose the organisation wisely and one will seldom have a problem with the staff.

----------

I once had a student that ALL the instructors in the school had gone through (about 6), he had got to 60 hours and still not gone solo - these were not bad instructors

They were bad instructors. The CFI / Head of Training was an idiot to permit this severe failure in basic professional standards. This student had 7 instructors who as you say "did not teach".

Unprofessional organisations and their instructors have either never even read or at least do not remember the basic theory of teaching that they (should) have spent quite a time learning on their instructor course.

Seems to me that organisations providing flight training such as the one you describe can not say that they are "teaching" anything.......they are simply assisting people to self-learn.......and if the student can't teach themselves they are lost and pass the buck from one to another to another until eventually the student either gives up or figures it out for themselves.

How many parents would be happy if their teenager had six different teachers for a subject in the year prior to their exams and none of whom made suitable progress towards the aims of the training?

To say that an instructor may not "click" with a particular student and thus the student should be taught by another goes totally in the face of what being a professional teacher is all about. How can such a teacher ever expect to cope with a class of 12 individuals of various ages, backgrounds, attitudes, learning styles and ability but still get the theory of flight across so that every student leaves with all of the need to know and most of the nice to know?

For every reason that a student requests an instructor change there is either a problem with the instructor that requires fixing or a problem with the student that needs to be fixed.

Either way simply changing instructors fixes nothing and brushes the problem under the carpet.

---------

Overall the problem is that in some organisations we have students who know nothing about teaching acting like they do and instructors who know nothing about teaching pretending they do.

Until every organisation has proper professional well trained well audited staff then the organisations providing sub-standard training are going to outnumber the quality ones.

[S-Works]

Until every organisation has proper professional well trained well audited staff then the organisations providing sub-standard training are going to outnumber the quality ones

It is one of those rare occasions that we agree. We have a fully documented audit procedure and CAA approved Quality Manual. Courses are audited internally every quarter and every year an external auditor from one of the group companies comes and does a full audit.

Our Instructors are standardised on starting and then once a year by me as HOT. All our Instructors teach the same material in the same way. That produces high quality consistent training. Without a framework people will just make their own interpretation and that generally leads to sub standard training IMHO.

[S-Works]

Indeed. Which is why I said:

Without a framework people will just make their own interpretation and that generally leads to sub standard training IMHO.

Standardisation and a proper audit able framework. Once that is in place then it is down to the instructor to adapt within that framework.

[Checkboard]

Four...when you are learning takeoffs and landings...do not do touch and goes...full stop taxi back landings are the proper way to learn landings.

While I agree that student new to circuits can become so overloaded with the "& Go" portion of a "Touch & Go" that they don't obtain the full benefit of the previous landing it isn't necessary to make it a "full stop" each time. For the first couple of lessons, I always simply took control after the touch down, and flew the "& Go" portion myself, to allow the student to think about the previous landing effort.

[protectthehornet]

touch and go vs. full stop/ also customer rights

I stand by my statement regarding full stop vs. touch and go landings. If you are flying from a field that is SO busy...simply fly to a less used field for the actual practice. Or get up early at dawn to avoid traffic (often the winds are lighter and easier for the new student to gain a better sense of what he is doing vs. what the wind and turbulence are doing)

You (the basic, pre solo student) are learning landings not touch and goes. One must debrief after each landing and there is not enough time while EXPEDITING A TAKEOFF. This sets up bad habit patterns. Notice the excuse used by one poster...it becomes too expensive.

Certainly practice go arounds and other recovery type maneuvers as well.

AS for using your rights as a customer. It doesn't take a genius to know that if you are not progressing, or feel that your needs are not met that you find a new instructor...make that different instructor.

If you are not recovering from an illness...get a second opinion (from another physician). If your golf score isn't going down with one golf instructor...time to try another (if in good faith you have done your part).


I've often seen the arguments used in this thread by instructors who later change their mind after using my guidelines.

Remember, you are learning to fly in a civilian atmosphere. You are not required to fly against the huns in 10 hours.

[Dudley Henriques]

I stand by my statement regarding full stop vs. touch and go landings. If you are flying from a field that is SO busy...simply fly to a less used field for the actual practice. Or get up early at dawn to avoid traffic (often the winds are lighter and easier for the new student to gain a better sense of what he is doing vs. what the wind and turbulence are doing)

You (the basic, pre solo student) are learning landings not touch and goes. One must debrief after each landing and there is not enough time while EXPEDITING A TAKEOFF. This sets up bad habit patterns. Notice the excuse used by one poster...it becomes too expensive.

Certainly practice go arounds and other recovery type maneuvers as well.

AS for using your rights as a customer. It doesn't take a genius to know that if you are not progressing, or feel that your needs are not met that you find a new instructor...make that different instructor.

If you are not recovering from an illness...get a second opinion (from another physician). If your golf score isn't going down with one golf instructor...time to try another (if in good faith you have done your part).


I've often seen the arguments used in this thread by instructors who later change their mind after using my guidelines.

Remember, you are learning to fly in a civilian atmosphere. You are not required to fly against the huns in 10 hours.

In every seminar I've given to CFI's through the years I've always included a segment on how instructors can use the learning curve to better advantage. The issue of touch and go's is always a front burner discussion.

My advice on the issue has always remained the same.
Instructors working out of controlled high traffic airports were always encouraged to take students transitioning from the high/low air work phase into take offs and landings to nearby low density non controlled environments for initial pattern work for a specific reason.
In initial landing training, it was HIGHLY encouraged that full stop landings be made thus allowing the period taxiing back for the next takeoff to be used for two specific purposes;
1. To allow the instructor the time to discuss in a non stressful environment the last landing and to prepare the student for the next takeoff.
2. To allow the student time to relax, and ABSORB what was learned on the last landing.

A great many instructors unfortunately don't realize that the period of greatest RETENTION and COMPREHENSION occurs during periods when the student is not physically flying the airplane.

You can of course teach the student either way; be it touch and go's or full stop, but everything considered, even the added cost of full stop landings, it has been my experience over time that there is an ultimate gain in quality if the above procedures are used.

Touch and go's can best be utilized as part of the natural process involved with missed approaches and go arounds prior to student solo.

Every instructor should seek to find the best technique that suits their specific situations involving specific students.
Dudley Henriques

[foxmoth]

Bring your 15 year old into school and tell the Principal that you want them to choose their teacher?........see what the response is

Well when I went into school about my 15 year old who was having a problem with ONE teacher in one particular subject (yes she had more than one teacher - each one taught a different subject and she was doing exceptionally well apart from this one subject), after discussion they changed her to a different class and her progress in that subject went to what it should be.

As far as

They were bad instructors. The CFI / Head of Training was an idiot to permit this severe failure in basic professional standards. This student had 7 instructors who as you say "did not teach".

- If you do not know the instructors,the circumstances or the student then how can you make a proper judgement??? This was widely regarded as a VERY well run school, the particular student had not been chopped and changed - 2 main instructors in the first 40 hours then changing them to try and see if that would help at the end.

I do agree that

Tell me, how does this customer who decides who they fly with pick their first instructor?

, but this is NOT what happened here, the student flew with the Instructor then requested a change - one other thing you seem to ignore is that this may be a bad instructor, even the best schools occasionally end up with one on their books, it may even be a bad school, so the student AND CUSTOMER does have the right to choose both - otherwise you can end up with him giving up.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The touch and go versus full stop landings debate is an interesting one.

The choice of which type of landings one chooses will depend on many factors and will be based on what exactly it is you are teaching the student.

There are different circumstances and different airplane handling techniques that will have to be taken into consideration when deciding if you will use touch and goes or full stop landings for a given lesson.

I hope this does not bore everyone but I would like to use teaching water landings in a PBY to point out why I normally teach an average of around ten touch and goes to every full stop landing when giving type endorcements to pilots in the PBY.

The PBY is very critical attitude wise during touch down and the planing segment of a landing on water, if the pitch attitude is to nose low on touch down it will result in the start of a porpoise, if the pitch attitude is to nose high on touch down it will result in the start of a porpoise.

Porpoising if allowed to continue will quickly progress into total loss of control and the possible loss of the airplane and the people on board.

I have a set pattern for teaching the proper pitch attitude at touch down and it involves three minute circuits with all touch and goes performed with the throttles closed from two hundred feet to water contact at which time they use power to keep the pitch attitude stable and then apply take off power for the go portion of the touch and go.

Generally I have two pilots learning at the same time and they each fly ten touch and goes then observe the other pilot doing ten touch and goes.

This relatively short circuit performing exactly the same final approach attitude / air speed and flare height for the touch down tends to burn the picture into their memory banks in a very short time and once they are proficient at the task they retain the picture throughout the rest of the water flying carer.

Now as to the subject of de-briefing of each landing I agree that that is a very important factor in teaching landings......however in that it is impractical to de-brief each landing when doing three minute circuits I debrief at the end of the flight using the camcorder that was running during the time they were flying.

When they fu.k up a landing I rewind the recording to the point in the approach they started to get out of shape attitude or airspeed wise and stop the recording and ask them to show me with a laser pointer where they were looking and what they were thinking they were seeing at that point in the approach...we then discuss it until the student understands where it all started to go wrong and how to correct it the next time.

I hope you all got through all that without falling asleep as I thought it might be of some value to see how others teach the art of landing and taking off again on airplanes that have very critical handling issues in a given environment.