Women Only Flying School
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For goodness sake ....
I'm female, I run a flying school, and the 'female students only' suggestion would be financial suicide, (and plain stupid).
I really fail to understand why some women keep on feeling the need to segregate themselves, for example the existence of the BWPA - (feel free to shoot me down in smoke). Why is this organisation required? there is no male equivalent. (If there was, they'd probably get done for exploiting sexual equality).
True equality is about getting on with it; integrate, rather than isolate. Viva la difference!
I'm female, I run a flying school, and the 'female students only' suggestion would be financial suicide, (and plain stupid).
I really fail to understand why some women keep on feeling the need to segregate themselves, for example the existence of the BWPA - (feel free to shoot me down in smoke). Why is this organisation required? there is no male equivalent. (If there was, they'd probably get done for exploiting sexual equality).
True equality is about getting on with it; integrate, rather than isolate. Viva la difference!
Ariel, I take my hat off to you that you are 'walking the walk' and are running a flying school. I do, however, think that the women one finds around aviation are a fairly specialised group. Vivacious, confident and self-assured are words which come to mind.
It could well be that learning to fly brings out these traits, although it may also be that these qualities are essential for female fliers to 'survive' around all those hangar-sized egos and mouths that many of their male counterparts possess.
If you surveyed women who have started training and given up, and those who would like to start but haven't, you would find a good proportion who gave up, or didn't start, simply due to comments or fear of them from their male counterparts. Some people are simply very shy.
One only needs to look at questionnaires which ask, 'What sort of animal would you like to be and why?', to see that 'A bird, because I would love to be able to fly', is one of the most common answers from women.
If nothing else, offering women-only days at your school, could get you a lot of free publicity in the female orientated press; particularly if you included a few real-life stories from pupils who felt that learning to fly changed their lives for the better.
It could well be that learning to fly brings out these traits, although it may also be that these qualities are essential for female fliers to 'survive' around all those hangar-sized egos and mouths that many of their male counterparts possess.
If you surveyed women who have started training and given up, and those who would like to start but haven't, you would find a good proportion who gave up, or didn't start, simply due to comments or fear of them from their male counterparts. Some people are simply very shy.
One only needs to look at questionnaires which ask, 'What sort of animal would you like to be and why?', to see that 'A bird, because I would love to be able to fly', is one of the most common answers from women.
If nothing else, offering women-only days at your school, could get you a lot of free publicity in the female orientated press; particularly if you included a few real-life stories from pupils who felt that learning to fly changed their lives for the better.
The Original Whirly
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I really fail to understand why some women keep on feeling the need to segregate themselves, for example the existence of the BWPA - (feel free to shoot me down in smoke). Why is this organisation required? there is no male equivalent. (If there was, they'd probably get done for exploiting sexual equality).
Having separate classes for minorities in a certain activity is not a new idea. My (female) yoga teacher holds many different classes, and one is a 'yoga for men' class. Apparently some men feel more comfortable doing yoga if not surrounded by women. It's the same sort of thing as a female-only flying school really. And no-one complains it's sexist, because it seems to be needed.
I think you're right that with the small numbers in aviation, a women-only flying school would be financial suicide. But I hope the above goes some way towards explaining the point of view you say you fail to understand.
Apart from all that, the BWPA is a really good social organisation and has lots of interesting aviation activities. That's why I'm still in it after all these years of flying, and I think that applies to many women. Find me a similar association that includes men...and I'll be even more likely to join it! But there isn't one.
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Whirlybird: The BWPA eloquently championed and defended by yourself, as always. I would expect no less.
You know me personally, and are well aware of my views, (as I am of yours, which I respect). It’s very doubtful that either of us will change, so it’s probably best if we agree to disagree!
Mechta: I am certainly not, by any standards, a hard nosed businesswoman, I do not consider myself vivacious, confident, and self assured – I still have sleepless nights over what I do. I came into aviation through very unusual and personal circumstances, and do not regard myself as belonging to a ‘specialised group’ by any means. So, confident, and ‘walking the walk’? Hardly.
Yes I agree, but people, not specifically women. You could certainly apply the above statement to both sexes. I personally know of a few boys/men who gave up, due to any of the reasons stated. (Comments from other people, etc..). On the fear and/or confidence issue, I know exactly what that’s like, but in my case, (and in the case of other women I know), it’s aviation NOT female related. Incidently, but not relating to this topic, my couple of “oh my God, I can’t do this” moments, were helped enormously by a member of the opposite sex.
Incidentally, in the last seven years that I have been involved with aviation, I have to say that I have personally experienced some very enhanced female egos to match that of any man in the industry.
I know I’ve deviated from the original topic a bit, but please bear with me, I will get back to it in due course.
To quote from Juno78 (post no 31)
I empathise with what is said here. I was approached myself by a couple of women from the BWPA after flying to a different airfield about four years ago. After seeing a women get out of an aircraft, they took it upon themselves to approach me, and virtually demanded (in a nice sort of way), that I should join the association. They were almost militant in their approach, which I don’t think does anybody any favours.
And hey, before I’m accused of being unfair here, I agree with the statements whirlybird makes below:
The BWPA does get involved in some very worthwhile causes, I certainly concur. (Being a flying school, I automatically receive a copy every time one is published).
Can I make a suggestion? Drop the ‘W’ out of your title, and become the British Pilots Association. Better still, drop the ‘British’, and just be the Pilots Association. Also, put a couple of guys in key places in your organisation, then Bingo! we have an association for all of us.
Back to the idea of a female only school. We really do not need to segregate. My school has a healthy amount of female students, and knowing all of them personally, I doubt very much if they would like the idea – not even the ‘one day’ female flying part of it. They appear to enjoy having the guys around, and getting involved in the whole experience, as it should be.
Anyway Whirly, I hope that some of what is mentioned above goes some way to explaining my point of view also.
A merry Christmas to you all
You know me personally, and are well aware of my views, (as I am of yours, which I respect). It’s very doubtful that either of us will change, so it’s probably best if we agree to disagree!
Ariel, I take my hat off to you that you are 'walking the walk' and are running a flying school. I do, however, think that the women one finds around aviation are a fairly specialised group. Vivacious, confident and self-assured are words which come to mind.
If you surveyed women who have started training and given up, and those who would like to start but haven't, you would find a good proportion who gave up, or didn't start, simply due to comments or fear of them from their male counterparts. Some people are simply very shy
Incidentally, in the last seven years that I have been involved with aviation, I have to say that I have personally experienced some very enhanced female egos to match that of any man in the industry.
I know I’ve deviated from the original topic a bit, but please bear with me, I will get back to it in due course.
To quote from Juno78 (post no 31)
I got accosted by a couple of ladies in their 50s/60s at a recent event to talk about the Women Pilots' Association, and although they were very nice their whole attitude of "well sometimes us women tend to feel like we're getting it all wrong and it's nice to have other women to talk to about it" was just baffling to me
And hey, before I’m accused of being unfair here, I agree with the statements whirlybird makes below:
Men can join the BWPA, and some do.
Apart from all that, the BWPA is a really good social organisation and has lots of interesting aviation activities. That's why I'm still in it after all these years of flying, and I think that applies to many women. Find me a similar association that includes men...and I'll be even more likely to join it! But there isn't one.
Apart from all that, the BWPA is a really good social organisation and has lots of interesting aviation activities. That's why I'm still in it after all these years of flying, and I think that applies to many women. Find me a similar association that includes men...and I'll be even more likely to join it! But there isn't one.
Can I make a suggestion? Drop the ‘W’ out of your title, and become the British Pilots Association. Better still, drop the ‘British’, and just be the Pilots Association. Also, put a couple of guys in key places in your organisation, then Bingo! we have an association for all of us.
Back to the idea of a female only school. We really do not need to segregate. My school has a healthy amount of female students, and knowing all of them personally, I doubt very much if they would like the idea – not even the ‘one day’ female flying part of it. They appear to enjoy having the guys around, and getting involved in the whole experience, as it should be.
Anyway Whirly, I hope that some of what is mentioned above goes some way to explaining my point of view also.
A merry Christmas to you all
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For what it's worth, I've flown with and been instructed by, several Women flight instructors, as well as men. I started in the sixties, there are many. No names, but two are Captains @UAL, others have and run their own schools, etc. Captain Will Fraser says ladies make better aviators. Even keel, nothin' to prove, gentle with the equipment, etc. Patient, and professional.
Merry Christmas
Will
Merry Christmas
Will
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Yes I agree, but people, not specifically women. You could certainly apply the above statement to both sexes. I personally know of a few boys/men who gave up, due to any of the reasons stated. (Comments from other people, etc..). On the fear and/or confidence issue, I know exactly what that’s like, but in my case, (and in the case of other women I know), it’s aviation NOT female related. Incidently, but not relating to this topic, my couple of “oh my God, I can’t do this” moments, were helped enormously by a member of the opposite sex.
On the other hand, it was when I began to fly with a female Instructor that I finally began to make progress and over the years female Instructors have featured several times, including one who I believe is the finest pilot and Instructor I have ever had the pleasure of knowing and a great human being to boot. A view I later found was shared by almost all who flew with her.
So I do believe that there is something in the idea that quite often female Instructors are better for other women and many men too.
Sometimes I do believe there is too much emphasis on pilots having to be type A personalities. That was fine in the old days when pilots died a lot and aircraft were bloody dangerous. Far too many pilots have too much ego for their own good or that of people around them. A more balanced personality is the way to go. The fighter pilot mentality should be left to the fast jet pilots specially selected for that kind of thing.
Nevertheless an all female flight school for all female students is not a good idea. It simply reinforces the idea of women pilots as a novelty. Things have moved on from Harriet Quimby and Amelia Earhart. Or they should have.
The Original Whirly
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Anyway Whirly, I hope that some of what is mentioned above goes some way to explaining my point of view also.
The BWPA exists because women want to join it and they get something out of it. Isn't that enough? Nobody's dragging you yelling and screaming into membership!!! I'm not saying that all women should join, and neither are most members, and that's definitely not part of the BWPA constitution. If someone was accosted by a member in the way you describe...well, that sort of behaviour shouldn't happen, but is hardly the organisation's fault.
Drop the 'British' and 'Women', you say. But we already have the LAA, AOPA, and several other organisations which cater for all pilots. We also have some which cater solely to microlight pilots, helicopter pilots, pilots at certain universities, pilots who fly from certain airfields, and the ATC for the youngsters who want to fly. They exist because those minorities within the wider world of aviation want them. I don't notice you campaigning against them, and saying they shouldn't exist.
So why pick on the BWPA in particular? Methinks thou dost protest too much......
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Whirlybird
Really?
Why do you seem to get so upset when somebody offers a different opinion to your own. We do live in a democracy, you know.
Point 1 I haven't actually 'campaigned' against anything, let alone stated it shouldn't exist - my motto is live and let live; I've simply offered an opinion, (mine).
Point 2 All the above organisations you have mentioned are aimed at both sexes anyway.
I'm afraid you'll have to continue to not understand me; as I said in an earlier post, perhaps it's better if we agree to disagree on this one.
Anyway, I'm off to watch The Snowman, and various other things people do at this time of year, so won't be near a computer again for a few days
Have fun
Drop the 'British' and 'Women', you say. But we already have the LAA, AOPA, and several other organisations which cater for all pilots. We also have some which cater solely to microlight pilots, helicopter pilots, pilots at certain universities, pilots who fly from certain airfields, and the ATC for the youngsters who want to fly. They exist because those minorities within the wider world of aviation want them. I don't notice you campaigning against them, and saying they shouldn't exist.
So why pick on the BWPA in particular? Methinks thou dost protest too much......
So why pick on the BWPA in particular? Methinks thou dost protest too much......
Why do you seem to get so upset when somebody offers a different opinion to your own. We do live in a democracy, you know.
Point 1 I haven't actually 'campaigned' against anything, let alone stated it shouldn't exist - my motto is live and let live; I've simply offered an opinion, (mine).
Point 2 All the above organisations you have mentioned are aimed at both sexes anyway.
I'm afraid you'll have to continue to not understand me; as I said in an earlier post, perhaps it's better if we agree to disagree on this one.
Anyway, I'm off to watch The Snowman, and various other things people do at this time of year, so won't be near a computer again for a few days
Have fun
The Original Whirly
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ariel,
You wrote:
That is questioning the existence of the BWPA, isn't it? "Why is this organisation required" implies it shouldn't be there. It certainly gives the impression of being more than just an opinion, which would be: "I don't fancy joining the BWPA myself", or something similar.
The organisations I mention are open to both sexes, but they are for a minority defined by some other means - age, type of aircraft flown, place of learning attended, airfield flown from. The point I was making is that many organisations are specifically for some people, not all. If you don't object to those, why do you object to those which emphasise women.
I see no reason for agreeing to disagree, as I'm quite enjoying this discussion; I'm certainly in no way upset. However, I do wish you'd explain the reasons for your point of view, rather than just stating it. You haven't done that so far...and I just checked back through all your posts looking for it. You see, as a committee member and the newsletter editor of the BWPA, I would honestly like to know what people have against the organisation. So...please tell me, or quote where precisely you have already if I missed it.
Enjoy Christmas, and whenever you get back to the PC will do.
You wrote:
I really fail to understand why some women keep on feeling the need to segregate themselves, for example the existence of the BWPA - (feel free to shoot me down in smoke). Why is this organisation required?
The organisations I mention are open to both sexes, but they are for a minority defined by some other means - age, type of aircraft flown, place of learning attended, airfield flown from. The point I was making is that many organisations are specifically for some people, not all. If you don't object to those, why do you object to those which emphasise women.
I see no reason for agreeing to disagree, as I'm quite enjoying this discussion; I'm certainly in no way upset. However, I do wish you'd explain the reasons for your point of view, rather than just stating it. You haven't done that so far...and I just checked back through all your posts looking for it. You see, as a committee member and the newsletter editor of the BWPA, I would honestly like to know what people have against the organisation. So...please tell me, or quote where precisely you have already if I missed it.
Enjoy Christmas, and whenever you get back to the PC will do.
Moderator
FWIW I'm also a female and have actually found it a little irritating when people say "wow you've done so well..for a woman!"
because I own a flying school.
On original topic I think it would be very difficult to make a female only flying school viable, but some are certainly more female friendly than others and that is something to aim for.
I've been a member of BWPA who were good enough to give me a scholarship, and the Australian equivalent. Both are great for social flying and I have met some lovely and very accomplished people in both. I'm not a member of either now because I just don't have the time to contribute anything meaningful but I can see why people enjoy that type of association.
because I own a flying school.On original topic I think it would be very difficult to make a female only flying school viable, but some are certainly more female friendly than others and that is something to aim for.
I've been a member of BWPA who were good enough to give me a scholarship, and the Australian equivalent. Both are great for social flying and I have met some lovely and very accomplished people in both. I'm not a member of either now because I just don't have the time to contribute anything meaningful but I can see why people enjoy that type of association.
The Original Whirly
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Charlie Foxtrot India,
I went to Australia last year, and the AWPA heard I was going, and wanted to meet up with me as I'm the BWPA newsletter editor. They were fantastic! They arranged a special meeting of everyone when I was in Sydney, and I met Nancy-Bird Walton and interviewed her for a UK flying magazine...probably the last interview she did before she died. I'd arranged some flying at Bankstown, which is horrendous by public transport from Sydney, so Nancy's PA offered to drive me out there. The weather was awful , so she hung about till we decided not to fly, then she took me to the museum there, and drove me back to Sydney. I had a great time and met some really interesting people - especially Nancy-Bird of course!
I went to Australia last year, and the AWPA heard I was going, and wanted to meet up with me as I'm the BWPA newsletter editor. They were fantastic! They arranged a special meeting of everyone when I was in Sydney, and I met Nancy-Bird Walton and interviewed her for a UK flying magazine...probably the last interview she did before she died. I'd arranged some flying at Bankstown, which is horrendous by public transport from Sydney, so Nancy's PA offered to drive me out there. The weather was awful , so she hung about till we decided not to fly, then she took me to the museum there, and drove me back to Sydney. I had a great time and met some really interesting people - especially Nancy-Bird of course!
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Whirlybird
Seeing as you ask, this is the part of one of my postings explaining the reason for my point of view.
I stand by my statement, why do we have to have a separate organisation from the guys? (I know men can join the BWPA, etc), but it is still primarily for women. We are all pilots, aspiring pilots, (or just somebody with an interest in aviation).
To be a true equal in any sense of the word means simply getting on with it. I am not the only one who believes this sort of attempt at segregation is unnecessary
You may,
But you will not change my mind, as I will not change yours, so I see little point in acting like two politicians from opposing sides, and bantering (tit for tat), for eternity, on a public bulletin board.
As I said earlier: This is my opinion, I am entitled to hold it, I stand by it, and I can’t really see it changing.
Incidentally, I personally know a few members of the BWPA, plus a former member of your committee, and my views don’t seem to bother them, (as theirs don’t bother me). We know we hold opposing views on this subject, so sensibly ‘agree to disagree’. Otherwise, it’s a bit like trying to change the religious beliefs of an individual - pointless.
If you really feel the need to continue, I accept the offer you once made - to write a piece for your magazine, opposing your own views, (Assuming it is printed unedited).
Hope you had a good Christmas
Edited for typos.
I see no reason for agreeing to disagree, as I'm quite enjoying this discussion; I'm certainly in no way upset. However, I do wish you'd explain the reasons for your point of view, rather than just stating it. You haven't done that so far...and I just checked back through all your posts looking for it
True equality is about getting on with it; integrate, rather than isolate. Viva la difference!
To be a true equal in any sense of the word means simply getting on with it. I am not the only one who believes this sort of attempt at segregation is unnecessary
I work in law and a lot of law firms seem to have a similar attitude that women need some sort of "extra" or "different" training (my last firm had a Women's Network organisation that provided things like networking training for women) which is unbelievably patronising for supposedly modern organisations
see no reason for agreeing to disagree, as I'm quite enjoying this discussion,
As I said earlier: This is my opinion, I am entitled to hold it, I stand by it, and I can’t really see it changing.
Incidentally, I personally know a few members of the BWPA, plus a former member of your committee, and my views don’t seem to bother them, (as theirs don’t bother me). We know we hold opposing views on this subject, so sensibly ‘agree to disagree’. Otherwise, it’s a bit like trying to change the religious beliefs of an individual - pointless.
If you really feel the need to continue, I accept the offer you once made - to write a piece for your magazine, opposing your own views, (Assuming it is printed unedited).
Hope you had a good Christmas
Edited for typos.
Last edited by ariel; 29th Dec 2009 at 19:57.
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Well, in the gliding world, there are men and women (and those of indeterminate gender). In l989 I flew in the Women's European Championship, as a representative of the UK. Had a wonderful time. Came next to last, as I wasn't very good, but didn't bend anything.
Women in gliding championships suffer from two forms of discrimination.
They don't have so much money. They don't have so much free time. So women (although there are a few) at the top level are rare.
The opportunity to take part in an international competition would alas have been out of my reach on a level playing field. For the past 20 years I have enjoyed competition flying; you don't have to win to have fun. Men have trouble accepting this.
Nowadays I carry on instructing, which is very satisfying. I will often try to fly with women as sometimes the blokes will try to impress rather than to be gentle and inspirational. But if we tried to run a female gliding club, I'm afraid it wouldn't get off the ground. Men have their uses, I don't mind cooking and washing up if they change the tyres and do the heavy work.
Women in gliding championships suffer from two forms of discrimination.
They don't have so much money. They don't have so much free time. So women (although there are a few) at the top level are rare.
The opportunity to take part in an international competition would alas have been out of my reach on a level playing field. For the past 20 years I have enjoyed competition flying; you don't have to win to have fun. Men have trouble accepting this.
Nowadays I carry on instructing, which is very satisfying. I will often try to fly with women as sometimes the blokes will try to impress rather than to be gentle and inspirational. But if we tried to run a female gliding club, I'm afraid it wouldn't get off the ground. Men have their uses, I don't mind cooking and washing up if they change the tyres and do the heavy work.
The Original Whirly
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ariel,
I thought we were having a discussion, not bantering or acting like politicians. You seem to want to stop. However, it was you who brought the subject up in the first place...and some would say began the hijack of this thread, (but this is PPRuNe and such things happen).
I would love an article from you. I can't guarantee to print it, any more than I can anything else, but if it's well written, I'd very much like to. Similarly, it may be edited for grammar, punctuation, required length, and similar things, as any other article would...but that's all. I can't give you special treatment so far as those things are concerned. But I look forward to receiving it!
What does equality have to do with this? The BWPA exists because some people want it to, like any other organisation. If you're not interested in joining, why do you even have a view on it? It's not doing you or anyone else any harm. Seems to be well-respected actually; we keep getting invited to sit on committees and stuff. But yes, yes, you're entitled to, no-one is querying that....so calm down, my friend!
But if you don't like my discussing a subject that you know well is important to me, why on earth did you bring it up in the first place?
I thought we were having a discussion, not bantering or acting like politicians. You seem to want to stop. However, it was you who brought the subject up in the first place...and some would say began the hijack of this thread, (but this is PPRuNe and such things happen).
I would love an article from you. I can't guarantee to print it, any more than I can anything else, but if it's well written, I'd very much like to. Similarly, it may be edited for grammar, punctuation, required length, and similar things, as any other article would...but that's all. I can't give you special treatment so far as those things are concerned. But I look forward to receiving it!
True equality is about getting on with it; integrate, rather than isolate.
But if you don't like my discussing a subject that you know well is important to me, why on earth did you bring it up in the first place?
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Contact me when you want said article, (I have no idea about your printing deadlines).
Hopefully, I won't require your editing services with regards to spelling, grammar, etc.... !
Hopefully, I won't require your editing services with regards to spelling, grammar, etc.... !
Hopefully, I won't require your editing services with regards to spelling, grammar, etc.... !
The Original Whirly
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BWPA newsletter deadline is midnight tomorrow! The deadline for the one after that is the end of March 2010...which is perhaps more realistic. Maximum 1600 words please. I'll look forward to receiving your article; many thanks.
