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Instructors, a rare breed indeed!!

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Instructors, a rare breed indeed!!

Old 11th Oct 2006, 17:25
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Instructors, a rare breed indeed!!

I just wanted to canvas the forum on a fact that was worrying me for a while and seems to be getting worse. Two airfields I fly from seem to be in dire straights on the training side due to the lack of instructors. The airlines now seem to have hoovered up the long time instructors and the prospect of shelling out serious money for a CPL and an instructor rating seems to now be hitting hard and killing off the career flying instructor. I presume the multi pilot licence to be introduced will make the situation even worse.
The pre BCPL days of having the required hours and then doing just the flying instructor course seemed to work much better and gave the part timers a chance. I know AOPA were looking at the instructor rating and the need for a CPL, a licence which I believe is totally unecessry if you want to remain an instructor. All the best instructors I have flown with have all been of the pre BCPL variety.
Is the instructor shortage starting to hit elsewhere across the UK and does anybody know any more of the AOPA findings/recommendations?
Nick
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Old 11th Oct 2006, 20:13
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TightYorksherMan
 
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I sent the East Mids Flying School an email and....

Dear Mr Jinkster,
Thank you for your recent e-mail regarding Instructor positions.
Unfortunately we have no vacancies at present but will keep your details on file should an appointment become available in the near future.
We thank you for your interest in our School.

Kind regards

******* ******

hmmm....
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Old 12th Oct 2006, 07:25
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I know that my previous school had a lot of trouble replacing me when I left. I gather they are now staffed by a number of part-time instructors, who all have other jobs which pay their bills, and instruct for a bit of fun on their days off. Which, it could be argued, makes for some of the best instructors out there, but I know it's not what my previous boss was looking for.

As I see it, apart from increasing the number of part-timers, the only way schools will be able to continue to find instructors if the demand for airline pilost continues to increase is to pay them a sensible wage. Unfortunately, it's difficult to see how this will happen without putting up the prices for the customers.....

It's also worth noting, to Jinkster, that when I was looking for my first instructor job, I applied to over 90 schools, and had quite a few replied like the one you had, and several that didn't reply at all. I did a bit of flying for one school, which didn't work out too well (they told me it was a full-time position, but didn't have any students so I couldn't make any money). Then, after a couple of months, I got two job offers and heard of a position at a third school. I accepted one of the offers and worked there for two very pleasant years. So stick with it, because they might just mean exactly what they said in their letter.

FFF
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Old 12th Oct 2006, 07:47
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I think the lack of flying instructor situation will only get worse. Also if the powers that be have their way the MPL (Multi Pilot Licence), which as I understand it will require no flight training in "real" a/c before going onto the jets, is just around the corner.

The writing was on the wall when they got rid of the self improver route. In those days there was always a supply of young keen instructors building their hours prior to moving on to airline work. Also with the increasing commercial pressures none of the the air transport companies will allow their pilots to do the odd bit of instructing to keep their hand in as these hours count towards flight time limitations.

Most of the instructors who are left are getting more geriatric (me included) and when they expire who will take their place?

Mind you the big air transport undertakings want the MPL because this will save them a lot of money and perhaps go a long way to stemming a lack of "suitable" pilots which would limit their commercial plans/expansion. Whether this will be good for safety long term is highly debatable.

Interesting times ahead!
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Old 12th Oct 2006, 11:36
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That is perhaps what is needed for FI's to get a decent salary and perhaps become a career instructor instead of heading for the big companies.

I am glad that this is happening, if you want good FI's you have to give them decent conditions, if not they wont last long, and of course their motivation wont be the best one (remember about this chapter of human factors and the influence of motivation in the subject's performance?).

GA wont die because of lack of FI's, the market laws will rule as they always do, working conditions will improve and there will be people willing to instruct as a career rather than a way of gaining hours, for the time being only few do, i am sure if conditions were better more would do.

I personally do not think the MPL will have a big impact in GA, the people that will go this way were bound to do an integrated course if the MPL thing wasn't invented, and they wouldn't be going to do their basic training in any PPL school.

Most of the guys i worked with followed the self improver path rather than integrated, the MPL without having an agreement with an airline is an economic suicide for somebody who has not been "choosen" by a company, that is why i do not think it will have a big impact on GA.
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Old 12th Oct 2006, 12:53
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Also, the number of airline pilots who instruct part-time is restricted more than ever by the 900 hours per year rule. Everyone works much harder than in the past so most companies run their pilots up close to the limit.

If we instruct for free, we understandably get slated by those who get paid for it and either way if the school is making money out of us, even if we don't, it still counts towards the 900.

I'd love to instruct more than I do (no more than about 50 hours a year, all at the going rate) but I'm either too knackered on my days off or hitting 900 hours and the day job has to come first as it pays the bills.
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Old 12th Oct 2006, 13:13
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Myself - I have always wanted to fly a shiny jet (just like most other 20-odd year olds) and also instruct to build hours.....

However with the cost of training the way it is, most people dont have much choice but to go to the airlines and pay of there debts! I for one will definately come back to bash round in a C150 part time if I can (900hr limiting) and instruct, its great fun, easy work and rewarding!
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Old 13th Oct 2006, 18:53
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Jinkster-Check your pms

Cheers

Nick
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Old 14th Oct 2006, 13:44
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It would be nice if the old PPL instructor system was reintroduced.

PPL's like myself who, for reasons of family, jobs, ect cannot, or do not wish to fly commercially but who would love to instruct and help out. I won't get into the payed/unpaid debate other than to say that nearly all my instructors were PPL's, some payed, some not .... all very good too. I know that in France for instance many instructors are PPL's and many used to here until some bright spark decided they needed a CPL (or at least the paper exams). It says that to instruct an instructor has to demonstrate knowledge to CPL level. In the UK this is interpretted as "pass the ground shool exams" To do this now, you have to do compuslory ground school and then the exams themselves. Who in work or with a family can afford this in time, let alone money? The CAA could easily interpret the wording in a different way and therefore allow someone wanting to instruct to "demonstrate" appropriate knowledge in a different way. This could mean take the CPL exams but skip the compulsory ground school, or perhaps a stand alone exam?

Bring back PPL instructors I say!

SS
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Old 16th Oct 2006, 23:14
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ok i have read some comments but i am not fluent in english so maybe i did not understand very well what you said...

So if i understand, pay of instructors in UK is bad...but do you know that in france most of instructors (maybe 90%) are free ?? sad truth... because here, the flying club are association.
so most of instructors get a an another job.

and if i understand is there a lack of instructors in UK ?? so is it "easy" to become an instructor in UK ? because I think I will do FI rating...

In France the situation is :

The french CAA (DGAC) will want that most of instructors get just a PPL..not CPL!!
why ?? beacause CPL are paid!! and not PPL !! and the students do not pay an instructor, that is why the prices of hourly rates are more low than in UK...
and the second reason, instructors with a CPL, left flying club when they find an airline job whereas instructors with just PPL stay longer...

so if in UK there is a lack of instructors and plus they are paid, I am quickly doing a FI course!!
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Old 17th Oct 2006, 08:53
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Going to create mayhem......but I must admit I did learn 300 times more bits of information as a CPL than a PPL.....

Its not just all about a CPL (getting paid) or PPL (not getting paid) now is it???
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Old 17th Oct 2006, 09:51
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Going to create mayhem......but I must admit I did learn 300 times more bits of information as a CPL than a PPL.....

Its not just all about a CPL (getting paid) or PPL (not getting paid) now is it???
I'm sure you did Jinkster, but how much of it can you honestly say is essential to know to teach at PPL level? I'm not trying to belittle the CPL (I may very well decide to do the CPL myself one day), what I am saying is that to teach basic PPL, experience backed up by the FI course itself should be quite adequate. Having to take the CPL papers is rather OTT, especially as to take them these days you have to attend a fair bit of compulsory ground school even if taking the home study route. It's going to cost at least £2k on top of the £5-6K for the FI/R and require possibly two or three, two week blocks of time + three weeks? FI course. There are many experienced PPL's out there who (dare I say it) actually know loads more about the relevant issues to do with PPL type flying than the majority of fresh CPL's would have a clue about. This talent is presently being wasted, as few will go to all that expense to teach alongside another career. OK, you can say they shouldn't ... but they used to, and they did a bloody good job. What's so different now that CPL and PPL instructors cannot work side by side? A PPL instructor is unlikely to be teaching advanced stuff so why not share the load?

I hear all the arguments about poor wages ect ect, but to be honest it doesn't really effect my sensibilities. I work in a notoriously under paid and overworked profession, so whilst I can empathise, I'm not over impressed by the "I work soooo hard, but get soooo little" line. At the drop of a hat most instructors would be off as soon as that first airline position became available anyway (be honest!). Those that stay should move up the instructional ladder to teach IR, CPL ect and be paid accordingly at that level. GA is never going to make lots of money at PPL level, but it's also not going to attract new customers if the instructional prices escalate beyond sensible limits. PPL instructors would provide a good base, with enthusiastic, experienced people to breathe new life into what is becoming a fast declining, ego chasing and elitist rich mans pastime/profession.

SS

Ducking quickly
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Old 17th Oct 2006, 10:05
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SS (how appropriate , no need to duck).

I can see where you are coming from and in future days perhaps it will all change as the instructor leave for 'better' pastures.

Good luck
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Old 17th Oct 2006, 10:50
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Having been fortunate to gain my instructor's rating when I was a mere PPL with 150 hours in command I can see everyone's point of view particularly as I could take my time to acquire my CPL and ATPL on the self improver route. Having been a part time fixed wing instructor who at one time worked as the only fixed wing air taxi pilot for a helicopter firm, I was interested to note that their rotary wing instructors were paid a living wage! This is due entirely to market forces and that there are no "glamorous" jobs at the end of a rotary wing PPL as their might be if the cheaper fixed wing path is followed. Over the last 30 or so years all the arguements have been considered and one point has been the wish to establish the career fixed wing instructor as the poor quality of fixed wing instructor has been noted by those who use it as a means to hour building. Over those years it has been made more "difficult" to get a fixed wing instructor rating to try and circumvent this problem. First it was the BCPL, now as we know, new instructors are expected to hold full CPL's before taking the FIC. It has made little difference as the new CPL with 1000 hours in his logbook is infinitely more attractive to most airline employers than the guy with 250 hours thus using instructing for hour building is in as much demand now as it has ever been.
Once again we appear to be entering a phase where there is a demand for newly qualified pilots and the instructors who have been waiting for their airline opportunity for years, living in penury as an instructor to keep current if nothing else are now taking the opportunities now offered with both hands. It has happened before and will do so again. Let us hope that this time market forces will force up instructor wages to the levels of our helicopter colleagues and enable those who want to make a career out of instructing to do so.
Another market force which has affected matters is the ease in borrowing money these days. I just managed to self fund my own CPL, but the I.R. was beyond me. After much planning I went to my bank manager, flashed my CPL and told him that I wanted to borrow a maximum of £3000. It was the first request of this nature he had ever received and I walked out of his office with an unlimited overdraft to go and get my rating! (Yes it was quite a few years ago - 1980 to be precise).
A few years ago I found myself flying with a newly qualified first officer who confessed that her loan to get her CPL/IR exceeded £80,000. Aparently she could only afford on her wage to pay the interest on her loan, not any of the capital back.
I hate to say it but easy money like this has made it so much easier for people to train for the CPL which has lead in part to the situations we have seen over the last few years. I hate to think of the numbers of people out there who have failed to get a job, run out of money, lost their recency as a result and are now either bankrupt or seriously considering it. They have probably given up all ideas of a career in aviation and will possibly regret the decision they made to train for the rest of their lives.

P.P.
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Old 17th Oct 2006, 21:53
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LEVC

if you want good FI's you have to give them decent conditions, if not they wont last long, and of course their motivation wont be the best one
Sensible quote LEVC!

I am currently going through ATPL and WOULD like to be a career instructor - I have taught people in the past and it seems to be a NICE way to earn a modest living.

From my PPL training, I (and several other students) felt hindered by the attitude of some instructors. Several seem to have a chip on there shoulder (others are better balanced with chips on both!) openly complaining that the world owes them a favour because THEY decided to spend money and time to get a Comercial License - "I should be respected and treated like a God; them I will consider acting like a professional". Maybe something can be learned from the humble driving instructor who can earn a reasonable living without the label of 'failed F1 driver' or similar

Many people in other walks of life spend time and money to try to develop themselves - not always successfully. However, the attitude of many instructors DAMAGES the chances of the career instructors (my OWN target) gaining a sensible wage.

REMEMBER - its nice to be important...... but it is more important to be nice.
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Old 19th Oct 2006, 14:10
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If instructors were paid more than the average office cleaner then they may elect to stay in post.

Wages have historically always been low in this sector and because of this 'unprofessional' wage many vote with their feet.

Its NOT just about leaving for the airlines its also directly a consequence of the low labour rates.

If we reverted to PPLs teaching PPLs then the CPL as a standalone licence would die - no point
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Old 19th Oct 2006, 14:38
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I fully agree with PPL's becoming instructors (as I've said, I was one myself) The fly in the ointment then was that it was a cheap way of gaining the magic 700 hours reguired to remove the requirement of having to do an expensive approved course for the CPL. What we need now is for there to be no advantage in gaining an instructor's rating on the road to obtaining a CPL, or maybe these days a frozen ATPL. Of course a few hundred hours of instructing gives additional experience, but this should not be a mandatory requirement as it was for all but the very rich then.

P.P.
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Old 19th Oct 2006, 15:27
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If we reverted to PPLs teaching PPLs then the CPL as a standalone licence would die - no point
Not sure what you mean by "no point"? No point in allowing PPL's to instruct? or no point in having a CPL as a stand alone licence?

If it's the former, then you have swept away any arguments for or against without so much as a "but" or "if" If it's the latter then nothing is changed. The CPL as a stand alone licence is very limited anyway but hasn't died yet. Unless you add something like a FI/R, or IR a stand alone CPL simply allows you to earn money by flying, as you know. It doesn't get you a job automatically ... that bit is up to you and the direction you wish to go. An FI/R should be added if that is what you want to do, not just as a means to an end. If it is, then you can't really expect to be payed hansomely as you're likely to leave as soon as an airline job becomes available. IMHO, it should only be added if you genuinely want to teach, or if instructing is genuinely relavent to what you want to go on to later. This may cut the number of CPL's getting an FI/R, but I doubt it as you still need those hours under your belt to be attractive to airlines ... that is why most (not all I know) CPL's become instructors in the first place. Career instructors should get payed well, but that is why I say that advanced training is where the wages should be aimed. It's a commercial world, and just like other industries where experience is a requirement, those without, tend to be payed poorly until that experience is gained. If (and I doubt it will) this ultimately reduces instructor numbers, then the argument for PPL instructors is further backed up.

So saying "no point" has no point in itself does it?

SS
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Old 19th Oct 2006, 16:24
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Guys - Interesting and on-going debate

Why not see what EASA brings as regards to PPL instructors


I have been on both sides of the debate. When I was a PPL I did not relish the cost or time and sacrifice involved in gaining the (what I considered to be unnecessary) cpl. But I did distance learning, sold my car and got on with it. Now that I have done the hard work I can see it from the other perspective and don't wish to see my hard work and effort eroded for those who haven't been as focused or determined. There is a difference in skill level and knowledge between CPL and PPL whether you care to admit that or not.

Bottom line - if I was still a PPL I would vote for PPL instructors (and I have some sympathy with th case put forward).

Please don't tarnish all CPL Instructors as hateful young hour builders who hate PPL students, that is Bo££oc$s

If market forces and current regulations are left alone then Instructors pay should rise, if not and we allow PPL instructors then that should lead to lower costs for students and instructing for free.
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Old 21st Oct 2006, 11:46
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Instructors - PPL or CPL

Have to say that although, many moons ago, I instructed on a PPL (later 'grandfather rights' (R) BCPL), the course leading to the JAR CPL Skill Test - if done properly - is a good one and provides a solid foundation in operating an aeroplane in a professional manner. These days, my instructing tends to be for post-PPL students and, in general, I'm more comfortable with the the general level of professionalism / airmanship shown by students trained by today's CPL-qualified instructors than I ever was under the old 'PPL Instructor' system.

Whilst I'm sure that some of the old-style PPL instructors were good in their own way, there's no substitute for having to prove yourself at the professional level and be subject to at least some form of standardization before passing on your 'expertise'. Whether the CPL / ATPL ground exams are relevant to any of this is another matter - pretty questionable in my view.

In summary... I don't see a need for instructors to have regurgitated the many random facts of the CPL / ATPL ground exams, but let's have instructors who've passed a professional-level Skill Test - whatever we do, let's not simply bring back PPL instructors - they were outlawed for a reason!
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