JAR compliant licences
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JAR compliant licences
I notice some US schools now advertising "JAR compliant" ICAO licences that require less exams, are easier to keep current and are issued immediately after successful flight test.
Apparently no conversion or new licence required to fly G reg aircraft on return to UK.
Question: is this actually the case? Dutch County Helicopters in Penn., USA and www.ukft.com are two such examples.
Interested in your thoughts or better still, a definitive answer.
Apparently no conversion or new licence required to fly G reg aircraft on return to UK.
Question: is this actually the case? Dutch County Helicopters in Penn., USA and www.ukft.com are two such examples.
Interested in your thoughts or better still, a definitive answer.
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A very carefully worded advertisement indeed.
The only advice is to ask exactly what the final piece of paper will be.
My money is on an FAA licence which is indeed OK for flying G reg aircraft in the UK and is indeed accepted in every ICAO country but provided that you are flying an N reg aircraft
"A British School" - Hello, hasn't the USA been independent for a few hundred years? This is a US school targeting British students!
Regards,
DFC
The only advice is to ask exactly what the final piece of paper will be.
My money is on an FAA licence which is indeed OK for flying G reg aircraft in the UK and is indeed accepted in every ICAO country but provided that you are flying an N reg aircraft
"A British School" - Hello, hasn't the USA been independent for a few hundred years? This is a US school targeting British students!
Regards,
DFC
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DFC - very close!!
ICAO legislation says that every member state of ICAO must recognise PPL priveges from any other ICAO member state.
So, for example, the Brits recognise the FAA PPL, the Dutch recognise a Brit...etc. etc.
Technically , you must fly the host nations registration, VFR only, and only within their geographical borders...so, a G reg flown in UK, an F reg flown in France, a PH reg flown in Holland.
Some states (or, maybe, some individual customs/immigration guys at the airports of some states) don't mind you flying across their borders - i.e. Britain to France - but that's not the real deal.
The JAA "compliant" licence is a play on words from that International legislation.
The schools do issue FAA PPL's (with no training or advice on European operations what-so-ever) - which are then - under the International agreement - recognised for VFR flight within your 'home' nation).
ICAO legislation says that every member state of ICAO must recognise PPL priveges from any other ICAO member state.
So, for example, the Brits recognise the FAA PPL, the Dutch recognise a Brit...etc. etc.
Technically , you must fly the host nations registration, VFR only, and only within their geographical borders...so, a G reg flown in UK, an F reg flown in France, a PH reg flown in Holland.
Some states (or, maybe, some individual customs/immigration guys at the airports of some states) don't mind you flying across their borders - i.e. Britain to France - but that's not the real deal.
The JAA "compliant" licence is a play on words from that International legislation.
The schools do issue FAA PPL's (with no training or advice on European operations what-so-ever) - which are then - under the International agreement - recognised for VFR flight within your 'home' nation).
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Sounds like an FAA Certificate that is "ICAO compliant".
To be "JAR compliant" if there was such a thing! it would have to be issued in accordance with JAR-FCL1 which it obviously isn't.
Was this a Flying School or a Realtor?
To be "JAR compliant" if there was such a thing! it would have to be issued in accordance with JAR-FCL1 which it obviously isn't.
Was this a Flying School or a Realtor?
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JAR compliant licences
I am the owner of Dutch Country Helicopters. A JAR compliant licence is an ICAO licence such as the FAA licence with the addition of the JAA air law and R/t examinations. That JAR compliant licence is recognised by all 187 ICAO contracting states. You can fly G and N registered helicopters across borders and you are not restricted to day only. The JAR compliant licence includes a night rating giving you night privilages in a British registered helicopter. You can additionally fly all N registered helicopters.
This has been checked and agreed with the CAA. There is no deception here. It is fully explained on the websites of both of the companies mentioned. If anyone requires CAA confirmation for training purposes I will give them the name of the CAA official concerned.
This has been checked and agreed with the CAA. There is no deception here. It is fully explained on the websites of both of the companies mentioned. If anyone requires CAA confirmation for training purposes I will give them the name of the CAA official concerned.
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hi chopperpilot47, I hoped you might turn up when I started this thread as I had already seen your post on the Rotorheads forum -thanks for the info.
I'm a qualified ATPL, but I'm interested in this on two counts:
1.) it represents a potentially huge marketing opportunity for operators such as yourself, as most students are put off the cheaper FAA licences due to the hassle and expense of converting when they come back home. Obviously what you are saying removes these two barriers. If what you are saying is totally cleared by the CAA, then your business is set for a very prosperous future if you get your message out there.
2.) it once again shows the need for a clean sweep of the JAA, as the whole system appears to be geared (unwittingly) to screwing UK and European flying schools, who find it difficult enough to compete on price, but could always point to the problems associated with licence conversion. With more UK private pilots also opting for the FAA IR to fly N reg aircraft in the UK, the JAR's are seemingly a complicated and expensive exercise in bureaucracy bearing little relationship to the real world, certainly in the world of private flying.
It seems to me the only argument against someone doing this cheaper licence in the States is the lack of experience in UK airspace, but obviously with an agreeable operator back in the UK and a few hours of famil this should not be a problem.
Are UK flying schools aware of this? Do they see it as a big threat to their livelihoods? I'm not wishing to antagonise anybody, by the way, just genuinely interested.
I'm a qualified ATPL, but I'm interested in this on two counts:
1.) it represents a potentially huge marketing opportunity for operators such as yourself, as most students are put off the cheaper FAA licences due to the hassle and expense of converting when they come back home. Obviously what you are saying removes these two barriers. If what you are saying is totally cleared by the CAA, then your business is set for a very prosperous future if you get your message out there.
2.) it once again shows the need for a clean sweep of the JAA, as the whole system appears to be geared (unwittingly) to screwing UK and European flying schools, who find it difficult enough to compete on price, but could always point to the problems associated with licence conversion. With more UK private pilots also opting for the FAA IR to fly N reg aircraft in the UK, the JAR's are seemingly a complicated and expensive exercise in bureaucracy bearing little relationship to the real world, certainly in the world of private flying.
It seems to me the only argument against someone doing this cheaper licence in the States is the lack of experience in UK airspace, but obviously with an agreeable operator back in the UK and a few hours of famil this should not be a problem.
Are UK flying schools aware of this? Do they see it as a big threat to their livelihoods? I'm not wishing to antagonise anybody, by the way, just genuinely interested.
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"A JAR compliant licence is an ICAO licence such as the FAA licence with the addition of the JAA air law and R/T examinations."
What document is this promulgated in?
Why is it that the CAA people I have spoken too have never heard of it?
No JAA document makes any reference to it!
A FAA pilot certificate (with 100 hours) plus JAA Air Law is conversion criteria for JAA licence issue. The RT Licence is a seperate licence, issued nationally and not covered by the JARs.
What document is this promulgated in?
Why is it that the CAA people I have spoken too have never heard of it?
No JAA document makes any reference to it!
A FAA pilot certificate (with 100 hours) plus JAA Air Law is conversion criteria for JAA licence issue. The RT Licence is a seperate licence, issued nationally and not covered by the JARs.
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OK, chopperpilot47 - I'll take you up on that.
Tell me (in a PM if you prefer) who the UK CAA contact is.
I'd also like to know how - as a non-JAA approved school you are offering Air Law and R/T written examinations.
Whilst we are at it - what about the requirement for Human Performance written examination and Radio Telephony practical.
This is, presumably, assuming that the licence candidate has 100 hours of flight time on helicopters - and not that they get both the FAA and "JAA compliant" licence at the end of a 45 hours training course in the USA.
Doesn't the conversion process say that if you have less than 100 hours flight time you must complete all seven JAA written examinations - which, you cannot offer (can you?).
Tell me (in a PM if you prefer) who the UK CAA contact is.
I'd also like to know how - as a non-JAA approved school you are offering Air Law and R/T written examinations.
Whilst we are at it - what about the requirement for Human Performance written examination and Radio Telephony practical.
This is, presumably, assuming that the licence candidate has 100 hours of flight time on helicopters - and not that they get both the FAA and "JAA compliant" licence at the end of a 45 hours training course in the USA.
Doesn't the conversion process say that if you have less than 100 hours flight time you must complete all seven JAA written examinations - which, you cannot offer (can you?).
The school itself probably can't offer these exams - but if there's a tame UK FE/GR/RT Examiner out there with all the appropriate kit for the RT practical exam, he/she could probably set up as his/her own RF to conduct all these exams and tests? The school would no doubt come to a suitable arrangement to facilitate such testing.
But having heard tales about non-invigilated PPL exams being marked by the receptionist at a certain school, anything is possible....
But having heard tales about non-invigilated PPL exams being marked by the receptionist at a certain school, anything is possible....
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JAR compliant licence
Time I replied. I have sent a private message to Keygrip concerning the CAA contact. I have also passed the identity of the CAA examiner to him.
We do administer CAA/JAA examinations for the air law and R/T on site. We have a CAA/JAA authorised examiner who comes to us when we have students ready. He takes them for the practicals required, administers the examinations and passes, where successful. He has been in the business for a long time and was the person who pointed all this out to us in the first place. We didn't invent this, he liased with the CAA and discovered the concept of the JAR compliant licence.
There seems to be some confusion here between the conversion of an FAA licence to a CAA/JAA one. A JAR compliant licence is an ICAO licence which, because of reciprocal agreements, enables the holder to operate G registered helicopters as though the holder had a CAA/JAA licence. It of course, enables the holder to fly any N registered aircraft and to fly in any of the ICAO contracting states.
The reciprocal agreement means that the ICAO licence holder does not have to take the 7 JAA examinations because he is not converting the licence from his ICAO one to a CAA/JAA licence he is making his ICAO licence "compliant" with the requirements of the CAA/JAA. This compliance enables the pilot, as I have said, to exercise all the privilages of his ICAO licence in any of the contracting states. The UK is, of course, a contracting state.
I hope this makes this clearer. If you have any questions please contact me.
We do administer CAA/JAA examinations for the air law and R/T on site. We have a CAA/JAA authorised examiner who comes to us when we have students ready. He takes them for the practicals required, administers the examinations and passes, where successful. He has been in the business for a long time and was the person who pointed all this out to us in the first place. We didn't invent this, he liased with the CAA and discovered the concept of the JAR compliant licence.
There seems to be some confusion here between the conversion of an FAA licence to a CAA/JAA one. A JAR compliant licence is an ICAO licence which, because of reciprocal agreements, enables the holder to operate G registered helicopters as though the holder had a CAA/JAA licence. It of course, enables the holder to fly any N registered aircraft and to fly in any of the ICAO contracting states.
The reciprocal agreement means that the ICAO licence holder does not have to take the 7 JAA examinations because he is not converting the licence from his ICAO one to a CAA/JAA licence he is making his ICAO licence "compliant" with the requirements of the CAA/JAA. This compliance enables the pilot, as I have said, to exercise all the privilages of his ICAO licence in any of the contracting states. The UK is, of course, a contracting state.
I hope this makes this clearer. If you have any questions please contact me.
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Complience
I'm interested in this.
The CAA pre JAA, and for a while after it's introduction, always argued that even if the holder of a non-Uk or non-JAA licence holder had met the the requirements of UK/JAA in their previous training and subsequent testing then they the CAA were still required to satisfy themselves of the fact.
The way to do this was by knowledge examination and flight test.
I hear what the arguement is and i'm fascinated. Like so many things about JAR, what appears to be obvious is not.
I'm very aware of the cultural change required in ones thinking. Our thinking has always been, in the UK, to ask the question, can I? I'm always being reminded by the CAA these days, whenever I put to them the query; "I cannot find anywhere an answer to a question put to me of ..........! They reply that if it does not state that you cannot then take it that you can.
Is this arguement one of those?
The CAA pre JAA, and for a while after it's introduction, always argued that even if the holder of a non-Uk or non-JAA licence holder had met the the requirements of UK/JAA in their previous training and subsequent testing then they the CAA were still required to satisfy themselves of the fact.
The way to do this was by knowledge examination and flight test.
I hear what the arguement is and i'm fascinated. Like so many things about JAR, what appears to be obvious is not.
I'm very aware of the cultural change required in ones thinking. Our thinking has always been, in the UK, to ask the question, can I? I'm always being reminded by the CAA these days, whenever I put to them the query; "I cannot find anywhere an answer to a question put to me of ..........! They reply that if it does not state that you cannot then take it that you can.
Is this arguement one of those?
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How does one get a "night rating" when one does not have a licence to put it on?
The holder of an FAA licence can fly a G registered aircraft within the UK by day VFR. They can not fly by night.
This is how I see this operation:
The JAA and CAA changed the rules regarding the ability of US schools to obtain RTF/FTO status without having suficient JAA qualified instructors.
This school appears to be unable to meet the requirements for RTF/FTO status.
If someone in the CAA has said that this is OK then I would love to see what part of the JARs they used.....after all, the CAA saying that they allow such practices has effects on all JAA countries.
Are we as a training organisation worried? - Only that people will spend money and end up with far less ability to fly than they expected and than have to come to us for training causing expense for them and hassle for us (undoing much of the rubbish)!
This scheme ranks equal with the one where you get 100 hours in a twin for $5000 - you do but half of it is in the right seat (which in proper logbooks is recorded as passenger)!!!!!
Regards,
DFC
The holder of an FAA licence can fly a G registered aircraft within the UK by day VFR. They can not fly by night.
This is how I see this operation:
The JAA and CAA changed the rules regarding the ability of US schools to obtain RTF/FTO status without having suficient JAA qualified instructors.
This school appears to be unable to meet the requirements for RTF/FTO status.
If someone in the CAA has said that this is OK then I would love to see what part of the JARs they used.....after all, the CAA saying that they allow such practices has effects on all JAA countries.
Are we as a training organisation worried? - Only that people will spend money and end up with far less ability to fly than they expected and than have to come to us for training causing expense for them and hassle for us (undoing much of the rubbish)!
This scheme ranks equal with the one where you get 100 hours in a twin for $5000 - you do but half of it is in the right seat (which in proper logbooks is recorded as passenger)!!!!!
Regards,
DFC
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"The reciprocal agreement means that the ICAO licence holder does not have to take the 7 JAA examinations because he is not converting the licence from his ICAO one to a CAA/JAA licence he is making his ICAO licence "compliant" with the requirements of the CAA/JAA."
Sorry, this is not true, no convertion is takinmg place!
Art 21 of the UK ANO entitles the holder of any ICAO licence to fly a UK registered aircraft in the UK. There is no reciprocal agreement other than acceptance of the fundamental ICAO principal that a PPL shall be recognised by all ICAO States. In the UK this is enacted in law by Art 21. The additional exams have no revlevance whatsoever, because the privileges of Art 21 apply wether you have taken them or not. It has nothing to do with the JAA or JARs.
So far as using the privileges in another State, that is subject to the laws of that State; there is no big brother JAA State making arrangements or granting International privileges. As it is, the UK is one of the few States that actually take the ICAO agreement at face value; the majority includiung the US require a validation of the ICAO licence. The "JAR compliant ICAO" licence is a figment of someones imagination!
If it is issued by an ICAO State in accordance with Annex 10, it is ICAO compliant; end of story.
Sorry, this is not true, no convertion is takinmg place!
Art 21 of the UK ANO entitles the holder of any ICAO licence to fly a UK registered aircraft in the UK. There is no reciprocal agreement other than acceptance of the fundamental ICAO principal that a PPL shall be recognised by all ICAO States. In the UK this is enacted in law by Art 21. The additional exams have no revlevance whatsoever, because the privileges of Art 21 apply wether you have taken them or not. It has nothing to do with the JAA or JARs.
So far as using the privileges in another State, that is subject to the laws of that State; there is no big brother JAA State making arrangements or granting International privileges. As it is, the UK is one of the few States that actually take the ICAO agreement at face value; the majority includiung the US require a validation of the ICAO licence. The "JAR compliant ICAO" licence is a figment of someones imagination!
If it is issued by an ICAO State in accordance with Annex 10, it is ICAO compliant; end of story.
Precisely my understanding, noggin.
Perhaps the idea is to gain a FAA PPL, then persuade the lucky punters to build up to a total of 100 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, sit the PPL Air Law and HP&L exams plus the FRTOL tests, then do the JAR-FCL PPL Skill Test?
Whatever. But to advertise a 'JAR-compliant' licence is perhaps somewhat misleading.?
Perhaps the idea is to gain a FAA PPL, then persuade the lucky punters to build up to a total of 100 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, sit the PPL Air Law and HP&L exams plus the FRTOL tests, then do the JAR-FCL PPL Skill Test?
Whatever. But to advertise a 'JAR-compliant' licence is perhaps somewhat misleading.?
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I did get the PM from chopperpilot47 (Bell 47? my favourite helicopter!!).
I am aware of the examiner that he says "turns up when needed to set the written exams" (I'll work out the travelling distance).
I also know the CAA representative personally - and will follow this up. I'll keep you posted.
I am aware of the examiner that he says "turns up when needed to set the written exams" (I'll work out the travelling distance).
I also know the CAA representative personally - and will follow this up. I'll keep you posted.
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Here's a link to the CAA website regarding ICAO licence privileges:
http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/faq.asp?faqid=208
The section most relevant to this discussion would appear to be:
Exceptions being basically commercial work, giving flying instruction and flying IFR in controlled airspace. Obviously these will not affect the basic PPL holder.
http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/faq.asp?faqid=208
The section most relevant to this discussion would appear to be:
A licence issued by any other ICAO Contracting State (including a JAA State that has not yet been recommended for mutual recognition) is also deemed to be valid under the ANO for the purposes of flying a UK registered aircraft, providing that the licence and medical are valid in accordance with the rules/laws of the issuing State, and the CAA does not in the particular case give direction to the contrary.
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FAA/JAA Integration
There is a plan afoot to organise international
civil aviation so that standards are consistent
see:
www.halldalemedia.co.uk/eats2003/Woods.ppt
civil aviation so that standards are consistent
see:
www.halldalemedia.co.uk/eats2003/Woods.ppt