7192 D3
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super aviator
College Money spinner?, probably on commission? Clearly, you haven't taken the time consider the previous comments I have made on this forum, nor I suspect have you bothered to read the CAA's view in the relevant FODCOM's try 18/2001. Read back for the history.
Refresher in JAROPS1...
JAROPS 1.205 requires that an airline, 'shall ensure that all personnel assigned to, or directly involved in, ground operations and flight operations are properly instructed, have demonstrated their abilities in their particular duties and are aware of their responsibilities and the relationship of such duties to the operation as a whole'
The CAA's published view is that training is the responsibility of the airline and that ICAO Doc 7192 provides a sound basis for that training. Forget any idea of a licence; the above is as good as you're going to get for the foreseeable future. Why not instead, recognise an opportunity exists here for airline's to align their ops training with international standards. It also provides wannabes with a starting place.
Few airlines in the UK have the capabilities to set up a training course to meet Doc 7192, nor have they the resource to send people off for months at a time - so a distance learning course is a good way to go. Compare prices as you splitter suggests and you'll find it’s not that expensive compared with full time courses. However, if you want to work for a US or FAA based carrier then off you go, do and FAA licence. But, as good as it is, it is not as comprehensive as doc 7192 and it does not cover JAROPS.
Airline's have the above responsibilities, but YOU out there also have a choice, either sit back and wait for your airline to train you or not as the case may be, or grasp the mettle and take responsibility for improving the standards in your trade and push for the training to doc 7192 however you get it.
The fact is that because the UK CAA in the past has never set a standard for your training you have been left out in the cold in this respect. Little test, hands up all those who can point to an ops officer training syllabus in Part D of your ops manual? Not many I suspect, yet you work in a very technical and safety related environment and make difficult decisions day in day out which affect the operation of your airline's business. You can cost your airline dear by not having the lknowledge or experience to make the right decision or anticipate a problem arising in time to mitigate the negative consequences. There is a sound business argument for training ops staff to the 7192 level.
Also, ever wondered why you feel you are not trusted to make that decision without calling the Chief Pilot or Ops Manager? Or pilots tend to disregard your suggestions or ideas? I will tell you it is in many case because they know you guys & gals haven't had any formal training in flight ops subjects and are not in a position to make the best informed decision because you lack the knowledge to do so. Sorry, but that’s the truth of it. And please, I’ve been around too long to argue the above - call me arrogant if you wish.
super aviator, I have nothing to gain here except the satisfaction of seeing ops standards improve in the UK. I've worked as a flight dispatcher in the US and know the benefits of a licence; I know that dispatchers are respected because they are trained to the same level of the aircrew. I also know that if you have completed the 7192 syllabus, wherever you do it, that you will be able to work in the flight ops environment competently and with the foundation knowledge to cope with aircrew on their level in your job, and will be able to make much better informed decisions.
I hope you splitter is wrong, we need a one-tier system, that is, all ops officer have completed the training to the above standards.
College Money spinner?, probably on commission? Clearly, you haven't taken the time consider the previous comments I have made on this forum, nor I suspect have you bothered to read the CAA's view in the relevant FODCOM's try 18/2001. Read back for the history.
Refresher in JAROPS1...
JAROPS 1.205 requires that an airline, 'shall ensure that all personnel assigned to, or directly involved in, ground operations and flight operations are properly instructed, have demonstrated their abilities in their particular duties and are aware of their responsibilities and the relationship of such duties to the operation as a whole'
The CAA's published view is that training is the responsibility of the airline and that ICAO Doc 7192 provides a sound basis for that training. Forget any idea of a licence; the above is as good as you're going to get for the foreseeable future. Why not instead, recognise an opportunity exists here for airline's to align their ops training with international standards. It also provides wannabes with a starting place.
Few airlines in the UK have the capabilities to set up a training course to meet Doc 7192, nor have they the resource to send people off for months at a time - so a distance learning course is a good way to go. Compare prices as you splitter suggests and you'll find it’s not that expensive compared with full time courses. However, if you want to work for a US or FAA based carrier then off you go, do and FAA licence. But, as good as it is, it is not as comprehensive as doc 7192 and it does not cover JAROPS.
Airline's have the above responsibilities, but YOU out there also have a choice, either sit back and wait for your airline to train you or not as the case may be, or grasp the mettle and take responsibility for improving the standards in your trade and push for the training to doc 7192 however you get it.
The fact is that because the UK CAA in the past has never set a standard for your training you have been left out in the cold in this respect. Little test, hands up all those who can point to an ops officer training syllabus in Part D of your ops manual? Not many I suspect, yet you work in a very technical and safety related environment and make difficult decisions day in day out which affect the operation of your airline's business. You can cost your airline dear by not having the lknowledge or experience to make the right decision or anticipate a problem arising in time to mitigate the negative consequences. There is a sound business argument for training ops staff to the 7192 level.
Also, ever wondered why you feel you are not trusted to make that decision without calling the Chief Pilot or Ops Manager? Or pilots tend to disregard your suggestions or ideas? I will tell you it is in many case because they know you guys & gals haven't had any formal training in flight ops subjects and are not in a position to make the best informed decision because you lack the knowledge to do so. Sorry, but that’s the truth of it. And please, I’ve been around too long to argue the above - call me arrogant if you wish.
super aviator, I have nothing to gain here except the satisfaction of seeing ops standards improve in the UK. I've worked as a flight dispatcher in the US and know the benefits of a licence; I know that dispatchers are respected because they are trained to the same level of the aircrew. I also know that if you have completed the 7192 syllabus, wherever you do it, that you will be able to work in the flight ops environment competently and with the foundation knowledge to cope with aircrew on their level in your job, and will be able to make much better informed decisions.
I hope you splitter is wrong, we need a one-tier system, that is, all ops officer have completed the training to the above standards.
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FG
Well said!
I have spoken about the course to many, including pilots, engineers, management as well as other students. I too fully understand why others are unwilling to post for fear of reprisal. However, the general opinion IS the same as our own.
You splitter
I hear that there will soon be no need to go elsewhere to obtain an FAA licence as Jeppesen will soon be offering just that in at least two locations in the UK.
No sig
I certainly SHALL be writing to the college. The letter wil be in the box with the manuals.
Well said!
I have spoken about the course to many, including pilots, engineers, management as well as other students. I too fully understand why others are unwilling to post for fear of reprisal. However, the general opinion IS the same as our own.
You splitter
I hear that there will soon be no need to go elsewhere to obtain an FAA licence as Jeppesen will soon be offering just that in at least two locations in the UK.
No sig
I certainly SHALL be writing to the college. The letter wil be in the box with the manuals.
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No Sig
I’m pleased to see that you now admit that there is NO legal requirement (nor likley to be in the near future) for Operations/Dispatcher training.
“JAROPS 1.205 requires that an airline, 'shall ensure that all personnel assigned to, or directly involved in, ground operations and flight operations are properly instructed, have demonstrated their abilities in their particular duties and are aware of their responsibilities and the relationship of such duties to the operation as a whole”
As I’ve said all along, I welcome a course of formal training for our job as long as it’s the RIGHT course. Never once have I said or implied we don’t need a standard.
My only gripe is the manner with which this course has been presented to us, the lack of continuity and its contents, the errors and slap dash way its been “cobbled together”.
As there is no immediate requirement for licenesed staff in this country, you had and still have the time to get this course right.
Whether you are on commission or if it’s a money spinner for the College is not important to me, but what Super Aviator says certainly rings alarm bells when you see the course and the quality it represents. What is really important is that a quality course is put together and well supported by whoever presents it.
I agree with splitter when he says a lot of information we acquire is “passed on”, we all gain invaluable knowledge this way, but a formal course with the basics would certainly enhance our understanding of the knowledge that invariably gets passed on.
I also agree with you No Sig with regards in house training, most companies cannot spare the time not the money to send staff away for a disaptchers licence, but when you compare that course with this one, I know which I’d rather have spent my money on !!
If I’d needed such in depth knowledge of aircraft systems I could have bought a good quality book from the library or borrowed the company ENGINEERING manuals. I understand we need to know about aircraft systems etc, but as stated before it is the depth that is worrying. I really don’t want to waste my time AND money learning unessessary details in this parrot fasihon manner.
I can converse with aircrew at their level without knowing the ins and outs (literally) of ASI/VSI/IVSI or whatever, but that is based on knowledge, experience and hours on a quite shift (when do you get one of those you might ask!) reading the manuals and asking questions. But at the end of the day that is my choice, I don’t need or ever will need to know half of what I learn.
What aircrew need from me is an understanding of the aircraft performance, the ATC system, Navigation, Weight(mass) and balance, effects of degraded aircraft performance (As written in the MEL/DDG) and how to apply this degredation. He wants to discuss handling, he wants to discuss alternates. He doesn’t want to discuss with me what will happen if his ASI developes a blockage will the thing underread or overread in the climb, simply because the engineers will telll him its BROKEN and the MEL will tell him (and me) whether the aircraft can be dispatched. OR maybe your expecting the crew to call ops and say “ hey my ASI has broken, will it overread or underrad when I climb ?”
You make no reference in your response to my last posting because you know I’m right, this course is inaccurate, contains errors too numerous to mention and much of the content is unnecessary. Write the course from the perspective of what a dispatcher does, what he needs to know and cut out the crap he doesn’t need. Base it on the GUIDELINES in doc 7192. You ought to know, you say you’ve been there and done it, so surely you can accept this course is overkill beyond belief.
Good on you Mister Rainbow, maybe we should all package the manuals up and send them back, maybe we could approach one of the course moderators (DHL) and get them sent back free of charge !!!!!!!!!!!!
regards FG
I’m pleased to see that you now admit that there is NO legal requirement (nor likley to be in the near future) for Operations/Dispatcher training.
“JAROPS 1.205 requires that an airline, 'shall ensure that all personnel assigned to, or directly involved in, ground operations and flight operations are properly instructed, have demonstrated their abilities in their particular duties and are aware of their responsibilities and the relationship of such duties to the operation as a whole”
As I’ve said all along, I welcome a course of formal training for our job as long as it’s the RIGHT course. Never once have I said or implied we don’t need a standard.
My only gripe is the manner with which this course has been presented to us, the lack of continuity and its contents, the errors and slap dash way its been “cobbled together”.
As there is no immediate requirement for licenesed staff in this country, you had and still have the time to get this course right.
Whether you are on commission or if it’s a money spinner for the College is not important to me, but what Super Aviator says certainly rings alarm bells when you see the course and the quality it represents. What is really important is that a quality course is put together and well supported by whoever presents it.
I agree with splitter when he says a lot of information we acquire is “passed on”, we all gain invaluable knowledge this way, but a formal course with the basics would certainly enhance our understanding of the knowledge that invariably gets passed on.
I also agree with you No Sig with regards in house training, most companies cannot spare the time not the money to send staff away for a disaptchers licence, but when you compare that course with this one, I know which I’d rather have spent my money on !!
If I’d needed such in depth knowledge of aircraft systems I could have bought a good quality book from the library or borrowed the company ENGINEERING manuals. I understand we need to know about aircraft systems etc, but as stated before it is the depth that is worrying. I really don’t want to waste my time AND money learning unessessary details in this parrot fasihon manner.
I can converse with aircrew at their level without knowing the ins and outs (literally) of ASI/VSI/IVSI or whatever, but that is based on knowledge, experience and hours on a quite shift (when do you get one of those you might ask!) reading the manuals and asking questions. But at the end of the day that is my choice, I don’t need or ever will need to know half of what I learn.
What aircrew need from me is an understanding of the aircraft performance, the ATC system, Navigation, Weight(mass) and balance, effects of degraded aircraft performance (As written in the MEL/DDG) and how to apply this degredation. He wants to discuss handling, he wants to discuss alternates. He doesn’t want to discuss with me what will happen if his ASI developes a blockage will the thing underread or overread in the climb, simply because the engineers will telll him its BROKEN and the MEL will tell him (and me) whether the aircraft can be dispatched. OR maybe your expecting the crew to call ops and say “ hey my ASI has broken, will it overread or underrad when I climb ?”
You make no reference in your response to my last posting because you know I’m right, this course is inaccurate, contains errors too numerous to mention and much of the content is unnecessary. Write the course from the perspective of what a dispatcher does, what he needs to know and cut out the crap he doesn’t need. Base it on the GUIDELINES in doc 7192. You ought to know, you say you’ve been there and done it, so surely you can accept this course is overkill beyond belief.
Good on you Mister Rainbow, maybe we should all package the manuals up and send them back, maybe we could approach one of the course moderators (DHL) and get them sent back free of charge !!!!!!!!!!!!
regards FG
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FG
Your last posting and my last must have crossed as this is the first I've seen of it, I wasn't avoiding your comments. What I have said, is that the CAA have specified Doc 7192 as the training standard for flight operations officers. OK so far? That is the standard for UK operators. The syllabus is the syllabus, it defines the subject matter and the level of understanding required by the student. If we deviate from this course then we move away from the reference standard. In the begining UKOMA agreed that the only way to approach this was to stick to the 7192 requirements.
I have also said that the first modules may have been more than is needed by 7192, we acknowledged that a long time ago. Next set of models will be better aligned with 7192 requirement, first course and we're working to get it fine tuned.
You are making the judgement that you don't need all of this knowledge, subjectively. Standards are set to remove that. I didn't write Doc 7192, disagree with it if you like. But, as with a flight crew licence they don't get a choice, because it's a standard. In due course ICAO may adjust the requirement, but for the time being this edition we have to work to.
The ICAO doc requires you to understand the operation of almost all of the aircraft systems, if you haven't got a copy email me with your address and I'll send you a copy and you can judge the syllabus for yourself. What you are saying though is that you don't need to know as much as a pilot, in some areas that may be true, but on the other hand you are saying
"What aircrew need from me is an understanding of the aircraft performance, the ATC system, Navigation, Weight(mass) and balance, effects of degraded aircraft performance (As written in the MEL/DDG) and how to apply this degredation"
So pray tell me, what level of understanding do you need at say DHL Air versus easyJet? is it the same or is it more? If you happen to work for say, Heavylift (as they once were) and you needed to derive your performance from the flight manual graphs of an older aircraft, how much depth do you need to go into. Does the MEL teach you to go to the 'reference line first'? No it doesn't. Why is it that aircrew licencing applies a 'one size fits all philosophy'? Answer that and you can find the answer to why ICAO define a similar standard for Ops training.
My point FG is that what you think you need and what others need may be two different things. So, we have ICAO guiding us to a general standard of knowledge and the object of the course if to give you that knowledge.
I do not for one minute accept that this course is overkill for the Ops bod who wishes to have an in depth understanding of aircraft systems and airline operations, or that it is 'slap dash' as you call it. Several of the modules have not required any editing at all. I will accept that in the aircraft system modules in this first pass we may have included more than is required by 7192, many would consider that a benefit. Yes, the college had some pagination difficulties as I mentioned before and they re-issued the met section as a result. I said before, you must contact the College with your comments if you have found problems. I have not been made aware of 'errors too numerous to mention' by any of the 20 odd easyJet bods on the course, a few yes, but not too many to mention.
Listen guys, I'm not going to ram this course down your throats. If you don't want to do the course then don't. All I can try and do here is explain its origins, give you my personal view and try and foster a new standard of training which, our Authority recommends, and which I believe to be what our industry needs.
But, if you take the time to study the 7192 course, you will see that the objective is to give the candidate a level of technical competence to enable him/her to do his or her job. I have at least three ops bods in easyjet who did their ATPL studies in about 9 month or so each. Why because they want to fly and be pilots. I say, if you want a career in airline flight ops then do the studies to the 7192 syllabus. Of course you won't use it all, but then again do you use all of the Maths you studied at school? probably not. Same, same the more you know about aircraft, the systems and flight operation the better you'll understand the industry and I would argue, the better ops officer you'll be.
Your last posting and my last must have crossed as this is the first I've seen of it, I wasn't avoiding your comments. What I have said, is that the CAA have specified Doc 7192 as the training standard for flight operations officers. OK so far? That is the standard for UK operators. The syllabus is the syllabus, it defines the subject matter and the level of understanding required by the student. If we deviate from this course then we move away from the reference standard. In the begining UKOMA agreed that the only way to approach this was to stick to the 7192 requirements.
I have also said that the first modules may have been more than is needed by 7192, we acknowledged that a long time ago. Next set of models will be better aligned with 7192 requirement, first course and we're working to get it fine tuned.
You are making the judgement that you don't need all of this knowledge, subjectively. Standards are set to remove that. I didn't write Doc 7192, disagree with it if you like. But, as with a flight crew licence they don't get a choice, because it's a standard. In due course ICAO may adjust the requirement, but for the time being this edition we have to work to.
The ICAO doc requires you to understand the operation of almost all of the aircraft systems, if you haven't got a copy email me with your address and I'll send you a copy and you can judge the syllabus for yourself. What you are saying though is that you don't need to know as much as a pilot, in some areas that may be true, but on the other hand you are saying
"What aircrew need from me is an understanding of the aircraft performance, the ATC system, Navigation, Weight(mass) and balance, effects of degraded aircraft performance (As written in the MEL/DDG) and how to apply this degredation"
So pray tell me, what level of understanding do you need at say DHL Air versus easyJet? is it the same or is it more? If you happen to work for say, Heavylift (as they once were) and you needed to derive your performance from the flight manual graphs of an older aircraft, how much depth do you need to go into. Does the MEL teach you to go to the 'reference line first'? No it doesn't. Why is it that aircrew licencing applies a 'one size fits all philosophy'? Answer that and you can find the answer to why ICAO define a similar standard for Ops training.
My point FG is that what you think you need and what others need may be two different things. So, we have ICAO guiding us to a general standard of knowledge and the object of the course if to give you that knowledge.
I do not for one minute accept that this course is overkill for the Ops bod who wishes to have an in depth understanding of aircraft systems and airline operations, or that it is 'slap dash' as you call it. Several of the modules have not required any editing at all. I will accept that in the aircraft system modules in this first pass we may have included more than is required by 7192, many would consider that a benefit. Yes, the college had some pagination difficulties as I mentioned before and they re-issued the met section as a result. I said before, you must contact the College with your comments if you have found problems. I have not been made aware of 'errors too numerous to mention' by any of the 20 odd easyJet bods on the course, a few yes, but not too many to mention.
Listen guys, I'm not going to ram this course down your throats. If you don't want to do the course then don't. All I can try and do here is explain its origins, give you my personal view and try and foster a new standard of training which, our Authority recommends, and which I believe to be what our industry needs.
But, if you take the time to study the 7192 course, you will see that the objective is to give the candidate a level of technical competence to enable him/her to do his or her job. I have at least three ops bods in easyjet who did their ATPL studies in about 9 month or so each. Why because they want to fly and be pilots. I say, if you want a career in airline flight ops then do the studies to the 7192 syllabus. Of course you won't use it all, but then again do you use all of the Maths you studied at school? probably not. Same, same the more you know about aircraft, the systems and flight operation the better you'll understand the industry and I would argue, the better ops officer you'll be.
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Please don’t patronise me no sig with your “okay so far” comment, I thoroughly understand what you say and have done all the way through this thread.
Yes Doc 7192 is the BASIS that the CAA advise operators to teach their staff to. Yes it gives a guideline to the level of understanding, but as you quite rightly say is open to interpretation. I don’t disagree with it, but 12 hours for systems even at classroom level does not equate to 150 hours self study. What I am saying is you should have adjusted the contents of the course before sending it out and charging £1200 for the privilege.
I have a copy of the document hence the reason I know the standard requires 12 hours of study for Aircraft Indoctrination (see previous post) for which you have gone overboard.
With regards your reference to DHL AIR vs Easyjet and Heavylift, you need an understanding of aircraft performance full stop. Local arrangements would be in place to explain the difference from ”the norm”. I have worked for airlines with modern and “older” aircraft and never had a problem understanding any of the information with the training I was given.
I have not seen modules 2 and 3 yet because I seem to have paid for a course that is not yet finished, but I would be quite happy for it to go into great depths on such subjects that are needed. In fact I would much prefer the course to allocate twice the time on meteorology and subjects that I consider (yes subjectivley) important.
“My point FG is that what you think you need and what others need may be two different things. So, we have ICAO guiding us to a general standard of knowledge and the object of the course if to give you that knowledge”
Of course that’s your point, your promoting the course, but that’s why the CAA states and I quote again:
“The CAA does not believe there is a need for a formal
licence for flight operations officers or dispatchers. The
training and employment of flight operations officers or
dispatchers is a matter for the individual operator for which
ICAO Doc 7192 D3 provides a sound basis.”
Operators decide what you need to know and the syllabus is only a guideline. You couldn’t possibly put a course together that covers all requirements, so teach BASIC Aircraft systems - 12 hours (or if you so wish double or treble that as you previosuly stated for the fact it is distance learning), but not 150 hours worth.
Which brings me onto another point, you quite clearly state from your previous post and I quote:
“Regarding study time, the requirements of Doc 7192 specify class room hours of training, for an open learning course these need to be doubled if not trebled. We checked this against the 7192 and found the college study plan not too far off the mark”
okay lets put this statement into the perspective you mention above.
ICAO 7192 Aircraft Indoctrination = 12 hours GCNS study time 150 Hours
(even with the maths I haven’t used since school that isn’t two or three times greater due to distance learning more like 12.5 times – jeez I can still remember how to divide)
ICAO 7192 Air Law = 30 hours GCNS study time = 30 hours
Meteorology = 42 hours GCNS study time =55 hours
Communications = 18 hours GCNS study time = 20 hours
Pretty close to the recommended ICAO study time you might think, but what happened to the 2 or 3 times longer because of distance learning. You can’t quote a rule to win an argument and then change the goal posts. Which I’m afraid suggests you’ve padded out this part of the course to justify ripping off £1200 from the students.
When I say too many errors to mention I mean TOO MANY ERRORS to mention. Would you care for me to list them for you. Considering only the Met book and Air law are the only bits to be left as is, you can I suppose discount all the errors found in the remaining books. Even so, I don’t intend to list them here, but as a prime example take a close look at the Met book, has the Stratosphere been burnt off to such an extent that the Mesophere now borders the Tropopause ?? Take a little more time to read it CAREFULLY. If your struggling its in Chapter 1 !!
“Listen guys, I'm not going to ram this course down your throats. If you don't want to do the course then don't.”
A bit late for that we’ve already paid for the course.
I’m not going to bother posting again, mainly for two reasons, It’s quite obvious I’m hitting my head against a brick wall, but you’ve certainly given me all the info I needed to know. Secondly no sig, you appear to be wearing blinkers. I think comments made by super aviator appear spot on, very astute my friend.
And by the way, have a little “off the record” chat with some of your Easyjet bods and see if they ARE happy with the course?
Any future students should view the course material BEFORE they buy into it and see if it meets their requirements, if you’ve ever studied at University level before you will find the quality of reproduction poor at best and explanation of theory awful, especially when you consider it is supposedly designed for a novice to learn.
Yes Doc 7192 is the BASIS that the CAA advise operators to teach their staff to. Yes it gives a guideline to the level of understanding, but as you quite rightly say is open to interpretation. I don’t disagree with it, but 12 hours for systems even at classroom level does not equate to 150 hours self study. What I am saying is you should have adjusted the contents of the course before sending it out and charging £1200 for the privilege.
I have a copy of the document hence the reason I know the standard requires 12 hours of study for Aircraft Indoctrination (see previous post) for which you have gone overboard.
With regards your reference to DHL AIR vs Easyjet and Heavylift, you need an understanding of aircraft performance full stop. Local arrangements would be in place to explain the difference from ”the norm”. I have worked for airlines with modern and “older” aircraft and never had a problem understanding any of the information with the training I was given.
I have not seen modules 2 and 3 yet because I seem to have paid for a course that is not yet finished, but I would be quite happy for it to go into great depths on such subjects that are needed. In fact I would much prefer the course to allocate twice the time on meteorology and subjects that I consider (yes subjectivley) important.
“My point FG is that what you think you need and what others need may be two different things. So, we have ICAO guiding us to a general standard of knowledge and the object of the course if to give you that knowledge”
Of course that’s your point, your promoting the course, but that’s why the CAA states and I quote again:
“The CAA does not believe there is a need for a formal
licence for flight operations officers or dispatchers. The
training and employment of flight operations officers or
dispatchers is a matter for the individual operator for which
ICAO Doc 7192 D3 provides a sound basis.”
Operators decide what you need to know and the syllabus is only a guideline. You couldn’t possibly put a course together that covers all requirements, so teach BASIC Aircraft systems - 12 hours (or if you so wish double or treble that as you previosuly stated for the fact it is distance learning), but not 150 hours worth.
Which brings me onto another point, you quite clearly state from your previous post and I quote:
“Regarding study time, the requirements of Doc 7192 specify class room hours of training, for an open learning course these need to be doubled if not trebled. We checked this against the 7192 and found the college study plan not too far off the mark”
okay lets put this statement into the perspective you mention above.
ICAO 7192 Aircraft Indoctrination = 12 hours GCNS study time 150 Hours
(even with the maths I haven’t used since school that isn’t two or three times greater due to distance learning more like 12.5 times – jeez I can still remember how to divide)
ICAO 7192 Air Law = 30 hours GCNS study time = 30 hours
Meteorology = 42 hours GCNS study time =55 hours
Communications = 18 hours GCNS study time = 20 hours
Pretty close to the recommended ICAO study time you might think, but what happened to the 2 or 3 times longer because of distance learning. You can’t quote a rule to win an argument and then change the goal posts. Which I’m afraid suggests you’ve padded out this part of the course to justify ripping off £1200 from the students.
When I say too many errors to mention I mean TOO MANY ERRORS to mention. Would you care for me to list them for you. Considering only the Met book and Air law are the only bits to be left as is, you can I suppose discount all the errors found in the remaining books. Even so, I don’t intend to list them here, but as a prime example take a close look at the Met book, has the Stratosphere been burnt off to such an extent that the Mesophere now borders the Tropopause ?? Take a little more time to read it CAREFULLY. If your struggling its in Chapter 1 !!
“Listen guys, I'm not going to ram this course down your throats. If you don't want to do the course then don't.”
A bit late for that we’ve already paid for the course.
I’m not going to bother posting again, mainly for two reasons, It’s quite obvious I’m hitting my head against a brick wall, but you’ve certainly given me all the info I needed to know. Secondly no sig, you appear to be wearing blinkers. I think comments made by super aviator appear spot on, very astute my friend.
And by the way, have a little “off the record” chat with some of your Easyjet bods and see if they ARE happy with the course?
Any future students should view the course material BEFORE they buy into it and see if it meets their requirements, if you’ve ever studied at University level before you will find the quality of reproduction poor at best and explanation of theory awful, especially when you consider it is supposedly designed for a novice to learn.
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fg,
dont go mate. not been such a good debate on this forum for a long time1
Just a bit of info for you all. Yearly Flight ops inspection recently.
FOI took an intrest in Ops staff and traning like never seen before, which personally I thought was good.
28 days to draw up a structured schedule of training with records for all staff invovled in ground ops. This will be part of the company manuals (but no sig you're right probably wont be Part D).
I ordered a copy of doc 7192 a couple of days ago. waiting to see what it's like!
dont go mate. not been such a good debate on this forum for a long time1
Just a bit of info for you all. Yearly Flight ops inspection recently.
FOI took an intrest in Ops staff and traning like never seen before, which personally I thought was good.
28 days to draw up a structured schedule of training with records for all staff invovled in ground ops. This will be part of the company manuals (but no sig you're right probably wont be Part D).
I ordered a copy of doc 7192 a couple of days ago. waiting to see what it's like!
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FG
Forgive the 'OK so far' bit, no intent to patronise just a level of frustration coming through at midnight just as your appears to be at 0437 hrs. This is a useful discussion and I don't wish it to degenerate as some on this forum can do so, if we keep it on a even keel we will hopefully all benefit, your input here can influence as we develop this course. I too feel like I am hitting my head against a brick wall, that means we have not made ourselves understood.
But please, I am making nothing out of this course so please keep the cash side out of the discussion, my only objective here is to get a course to 7192 that provides a standard training course for UK ops officers. That to is the objective of UKOMA group who is working with me on this. I am promoting the need for better training and this course on the basis that I believe we have an opportunity now to get airlines in the UK to recognise the need for ops officer training, on that we agree. This is on the back of the CAA adopting 7192 in the recent changes and the impetuous this can provide.
I 've covered the point regarding the CAA many times and to address your comment, 'Operators decide what you need to know and the syllabus is only a guideline', that may of course be the case. If your airline wishes to use 'only those sections of doc 7192 as they see fit’, then the CAA provides for that. But this is not the USA and I know many airlines do not take Ops officer training seriously, so there can be no assumption further training will be made available. However, a college does not have that luxury, it is a 'general' course aimed at providing foundation knowledge to a given syllabus.
You argue that there is too much depth.
I agree, in some areas of aircraft systems we have and I explained in the next modules we are guarding against that very point by having the moderators independently agree we have held to 7192.
Study hours:
This GCNS course is aimed at meeting 7192 in an overall sense, by that I mean at the end of this course having gone through all the materials you will have met the learning objective defined in 7192. We are agreed too much time is set to aircraft systems.
And yes I take your point regarding 7192 42 hours classroom study for Met. equating, by my rule, should be to 84 or 126 respectively. But, my view is that, what is important here is not how many hours either side of the 7192 'recommendations' are but that the objective is that the student should learn Met to the appropriate level.
As you said in your last, ' I would much prefer the course to allocate twice the time on meteorology and subjects that I consider (yes subjectively) important'. What would say to the student out there who said, 'I would much prefer the course to allocate twice the time on 'aircraft systems' and subjects that I consider (yes subjectively) important'. I'm sure you can see the difficulty anyone who is preparing a course has.
Without wishing to labour the point or dissect the course on the pages of PPRUNE, I do think it might be helpful for you see the approach taken. For example, Doc 7192 page, D3-22 Aircraft systems 4.6 requires a training objective of ‘the trainee is expected to demonstrate an adequate understanding of the basic systems and satisfactorily explain the effects of their failure on aircraft performance’, on the next pageD3-23 its covers:
Pneumatic systems:
Planning - take off mass restrictions
In-flight – air conditioning and pressurisation problems
Requirements for alternative power sources
Possible requirements to descend to a lower altitude
Increased runway length requirements
The course module dedicates 6 and a bit pages with illustrations to Air Conditioning (Chapter 5.1) and 11 pages and illustrations (5.2) to pressurisation. This is the ‘foundation’ knowledge to enable the student to progress to a level of understanding, which provides the basis for an ‘adequate understanding’. Chapter 5.2 covers ; Introduction, normal cabin altitude, passenger comfort, basic principles, cruise, descent, pressure hull, differential, pneumatic control, valves, operation, safety valves, electronic controllers, ditching and decompression. This now enable the student to move on all the other elements of flight operations which might need this foundation knowledge, for example, drift down and ETOPS.
Few airlines have the time or resource to develop a course of this magnitude from scratch, so we set about finding a cost effective and affordable way of meeting the intent of 7192. We did consider from the onset the cost of the course and its affordability to the average ops officer. As the College had the basic materials already available is was a case of tailoring them to suit this course. This is a new course and although all of the study materials have been edited, the College are refining it in light of input from the students with our help. It is one of the reasons I am spending the time on these pages and why I encourage you to contact the college directly with any problems you may find.
For my part, the experience I have had of airline operations and dispatch over many years has influenced my input to the course, just as yours is influencing your views. When helping the college filter the materials for aircraft systems I referenced 7192 and applied the general principles I mention above and that, if I were new to airline operations and wanted a general course to provide me the foundation knowledge that would serve me throughout my career, what do I need to know. There is inevitably, a subjective element in this. This was one of the reasons why UKOMA involvement was sought to balance ones subjective views. The only way we are going to get a standard of training which is recognised by all UK airlines is to try and work together as the CAA will not require a licence.
I am truly sorry that you are dis-satisfied with the course content and feel the materials are not up to scratch. I dis-agree with you regarding the materials and your suggestion for student to ask the college for example is a good one, let the buyer judge them. Also, I have indeed consulted many of the easyJet staff particularly those who are new to ops studies, I am not blinkered at all.
After writing this epistle, I think perhaps you’re right maybe we have exhausted this subject, however, I‘ll continue to read these pages and your input here will be taken on board and I will forward it to the college and the UKOMA group.
Regards
no sig
Forgive the 'OK so far' bit, no intent to patronise just a level of frustration coming through at midnight just as your appears to be at 0437 hrs. This is a useful discussion and I don't wish it to degenerate as some on this forum can do so, if we keep it on a even keel we will hopefully all benefit, your input here can influence as we develop this course. I too feel like I am hitting my head against a brick wall, that means we have not made ourselves understood.
But please, I am making nothing out of this course so please keep the cash side out of the discussion, my only objective here is to get a course to 7192 that provides a standard training course for UK ops officers. That to is the objective of UKOMA group who is working with me on this. I am promoting the need for better training and this course on the basis that I believe we have an opportunity now to get airlines in the UK to recognise the need for ops officer training, on that we agree. This is on the back of the CAA adopting 7192 in the recent changes and the impetuous this can provide.
I 've covered the point regarding the CAA many times and to address your comment, 'Operators decide what you need to know and the syllabus is only a guideline', that may of course be the case. If your airline wishes to use 'only those sections of doc 7192 as they see fit’, then the CAA provides for that. But this is not the USA and I know many airlines do not take Ops officer training seriously, so there can be no assumption further training will be made available. However, a college does not have that luxury, it is a 'general' course aimed at providing foundation knowledge to a given syllabus.
You argue that there is too much depth.
I agree, in some areas of aircraft systems we have and I explained in the next modules we are guarding against that very point by having the moderators independently agree we have held to 7192.
Study hours:
This GCNS course is aimed at meeting 7192 in an overall sense, by that I mean at the end of this course having gone through all the materials you will have met the learning objective defined in 7192. We are agreed too much time is set to aircraft systems.
And yes I take your point regarding 7192 42 hours classroom study for Met. equating, by my rule, should be to 84 or 126 respectively. But, my view is that, what is important here is not how many hours either side of the 7192 'recommendations' are but that the objective is that the student should learn Met to the appropriate level.
As you said in your last, ' I would much prefer the course to allocate twice the time on meteorology and subjects that I consider (yes subjectively) important'. What would say to the student out there who said, 'I would much prefer the course to allocate twice the time on 'aircraft systems' and subjects that I consider (yes subjectively) important'. I'm sure you can see the difficulty anyone who is preparing a course has.
Without wishing to labour the point or dissect the course on the pages of PPRUNE, I do think it might be helpful for you see the approach taken. For example, Doc 7192 page, D3-22 Aircraft systems 4.6 requires a training objective of ‘the trainee is expected to demonstrate an adequate understanding of the basic systems and satisfactorily explain the effects of their failure on aircraft performance’, on the next pageD3-23 its covers:
Pneumatic systems:
Planning - take off mass restrictions
In-flight – air conditioning and pressurisation problems
Requirements for alternative power sources
Possible requirements to descend to a lower altitude
Increased runway length requirements
The course module dedicates 6 and a bit pages with illustrations to Air Conditioning (Chapter 5.1) and 11 pages and illustrations (5.2) to pressurisation. This is the ‘foundation’ knowledge to enable the student to progress to a level of understanding, which provides the basis for an ‘adequate understanding’. Chapter 5.2 covers ; Introduction, normal cabin altitude, passenger comfort, basic principles, cruise, descent, pressure hull, differential, pneumatic control, valves, operation, safety valves, electronic controllers, ditching and decompression. This now enable the student to move on all the other elements of flight operations which might need this foundation knowledge, for example, drift down and ETOPS.
Few airlines have the time or resource to develop a course of this magnitude from scratch, so we set about finding a cost effective and affordable way of meeting the intent of 7192. We did consider from the onset the cost of the course and its affordability to the average ops officer. As the College had the basic materials already available is was a case of tailoring them to suit this course. This is a new course and although all of the study materials have been edited, the College are refining it in light of input from the students with our help. It is one of the reasons I am spending the time on these pages and why I encourage you to contact the college directly with any problems you may find.
For my part, the experience I have had of airline operations and dispatch over many years has influenced my input to the course, just as yours is influencing your views. When helping the college filter the materials for aircraft systems I referenced 7192 and applied the general principles I mention above and that, if I were new to airline operations and wanted a general course to provide me the foundation knowledge that would serve me throughout my career, what do I need to know. There is inevitably, a subjective element in this. This was one of the reasons why UKOMA involvement was sought to balance ones subjective views. The only way we are going to get a standard of training which is recognised by all UK airlines is to try and work together as the CAA will not require a licence.
I am truly sorry that you are dis-satisfied with the course content and feel the materials are not up to scratch. I dis-agree with you regarding the materials and your suggestion for student to ask the college for example is a good one, let the buyer judge them. Also, I have indeed consulted many of the easyJet staff particularly those who are new to ops studies, I am not blinkered at all.
After writing this epistle, I think perhaps you’re right maybe we have exhausted this subject, however, I‘ll continue to read these pages and your input here will be taken on board and I will forward it to the college and the UKOMA group.
Regards
no sig
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No Sig, by popular demand (you splitter) I thought I WOULD respond to your last.
As you say lets not degenerate the forum, but we will continue to agree to disagree.
Let me re-state and summarise what I consider we have established so far:
1/ ICAO have produced a document that gives a guideline for Ops/Dispatching
2/ The CAA have Advised this is a sound basis for a level companies need to teach there staff
3/ GCNS have produced a course that in their interpretation follows the ICAO Doc 7192
4/ The course has been issued to students at a cost of £1200 pounds
I don’t think any of the above can be argued against.
As I have stated all along I welcome a “standard” to which all Ops/Dispatchers can work to and a broad based course that should be supplemented by the airlines individual requirements. As we also agree it would be impossible to produce a course to meet ALL requirtements, hence the need for supplementary in house training.
Now lets summarise my compalints:
1/ The course has been issued at said cost and DOES contain errors, for which I understand are teething problems BUT – a little more care taken before sending this out (proof reading) would have alleviated this fault. As previously mentioned I can list further faults but I don’t intend to do so any further on this forum.
2/ As you already agree there is some overkill in the systems element of the course, I won’t go into this again. Modules 2 and 3 I understand will also be trimmed down by the moderators. I would however like to quote your last thread:
As you said in your last, ' I would much prefer the course to allocate twice the time on meteorology and subjects that I consider (yes subjectively) important'. What would say to the student out there who said, 'I would much prefer the course to allocate twice the time on 'aircraft systems' and subjects that I consider (yes subjectively) important'. I'm sure you can see the difficulty anyone who is preparing a course has.
Yes, but I would argue that anyone who needed twice the amount of instruction on aircraft systems would be best suited to a job as an engineer not an operations dispatcher. I certainly wouldn’t argue about the information required on the subjects you quoted in your last, I would deem those vital:
Pneumatic systems:
Planning - take off mass restrictions
In-flight – air conditioning and pressurisation problems
Requirements for alternative power sources
Possible requirements to descend to a lower altitude
Increased runway length requirements
But lets get the aircraft systems etc into the perspective of operational “performance” and not a lesson in engineering principles. Lets leave the engineers to do their job.
3/ The quality of reproduction of the documents for the price is of poor standard. I am going to ask you to look at the Met manual again, as an example the diagrams on pages 1.2 /3.3 and 4.2. These are very poor quality reproductions. In fact the diagram on page 4.2 should have been left out, its pointless and it loses everything its trying to convey because its quite obviously a colour diagram in black and white !! I could go on but I won’t.
4/ We are being asked to be proof readers and point out errors to the College.
5/ We are left in a position now where we have to study for 255 hours, knowing not all of it is required and trying to decide which is the chaff and which is the wheat.
All of the above points begs the question that a moderated and slimmed down version of this course should also have a slimmed down price !!!
As previosuly stated and Iin my opinion, a novice would have difficuly understanding some of this material and the price tag considering my complaints is a hefty one. I’m sure Easyjet can afford to shell out 20 x £1200 for this course and not even bat an eyelid, but what about the poor individual, longing for a job in airline operations who finds himself £1200 short for a course that isn’t quite right yet.
I still maintain module one should now be withdrawn until it has been moderated in a similar fashion to your plans for module 2 and 3 and then re-issued to the poor souls who have spent a great deal of their hard earned cash !!
Rgds
FG
As you say lets not degenerate the forum, but we will continue to agree to disagree.
Let me re-state and summarise what I consider we have established so far:
1/ ICAO have produced a document that gives a guideline for Ops/Dispatching
2/ The CAA have Advised this is a sound basis for a level companies need to teach there staff
3/ GCNS have produced a course that in their interpretation follows the ICAO Doc 7192
4/ The course has been issued to students at a cost of £1200 pounds
I don’t think any of the above can be argued against.
As I have stated all along I welcome a “standard” to which all Ops/Dispatchers can work to and a broad based course that should be supplemented by the airlines individual requirements. As we also agree it would be impossible to produce a course to meet ALL requirtements, hence the need for supplementary in house training.
Now lets summarise my compalints:
1/ The course has been issued at said cost and DOES contain errors, for which I understand are teething problems BUT – a little more care taken before sending this out (proof reading) would have alleviated this fault. As previously mentioned I can list further faults but I don’t intend to do so any further on this forum.
2/ As you already agree there is some overkill in the systems element of the course, I won’t go into this again. Modules 2 and 3 I understand will also be trimmed down by the moderators. I would however like to quote your last thread:
As you said in your last, ' I would much prefer the course to allocate twice the time on meteorology and subjects that I consider (yes subjectively) important'. What would say to the student out there who said, 'I would much prefer the course to allocate twice the time on 'aircraft systems' and subjects that I consider (yes subjectively) important'. I'm sure you can see the difficulty anyone who is preparing a course has.
Yes, but I would argue that anyone who needed twice the amount of instruction on aircraft systems would be best suited to a job as an engineer not an operations dispatcher. I certainly wouldn’t argue about the information required on the subjects you quoted in your last, I would deem those vital:
Pneumatic systems:
Planning - take off mass restrictions
In-flight – air conditioning and pressurisation problems
Requirements for alternative power sources
Possible requirements to descend to a lower altitude
Increased runway length requirements
But lets get the aircraft systems etc into the perspective of operational “performance” and not a lesson in engineering principles. Lets leave the engineers to do their job.
3/ The quality of reproduction of the documents for the price is of poor standard. I am going to ask you to look at the Met manual again, as an example the diagrams on pages 1.2 /3.3 and 4.2. These are very poor quality reproductions. In fact the diagram on page 4.2 should have been left out, its pointless and it loses everything its trying to convey because its quite obviously a colour diagram in black and white !! I could go on but I won’t.
4/ We are being asked to be proof readers and point out errors to the College.
5/ We are left in a position now where we have to study for 255 hours, knowing not all of it is required and trying to decide which is the chaff and which is the wheat.
All of the above points begs the question that a moderated and slimmed down version of this course should also have a slimmed down price !!!
As previosuly stated and Iin my opinion, a novice would have difficuly understanding some of this material and the price tag considering my complaints is a hefty one. I’m sure Easyjet can afford to shell out 20 x £1200 for this course and not even bat an eyelid, but what about the poor individual, longing for a job in airline operations who finds himself £1200 short for a course that isn’t quite right yet.
I still maintain module one should now be withdrawn until it has been moderated in a similar fashion to your plans for module 2 and 3 and then re-issued to the poor souls who have spent a great deal of their hard earned cash !!
Rgds
FG
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FG
I fully agree with you and I firmly believe that the organisers of this course are attempting to railroad the UK airline ops community into accepting it. There never has been, and sincerely hope never will be, room in our industry for a second rate standard. Speaking to colleagues and others on the course has bolstered my own opinion that the course is nothing but. However long no sig makes his responses to our postings, he and his ilk will cannot alter this fact, and the sooner we stand up for ourselves the better.
I fully agree with you and I firmly believe that the organisers of this course are attempting to railroad the UK airline ops community into accepting it. There never has been, and sincerely hope never will be, room in our industry for a second rate standard. Speaking to colleagues and others on the course has bolstered my own opinion that the course is nothing but. However long no sig makes his responses to our postings, he and his ilk will cannot alter this fact, and the sooner we stand up for ourselves the better.
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FG
I think we need, as you said, to agree to disagree on several points.
The few errors which have been brought to my attention were very largely down to pagination which I have addressed before, as a new course there may be a few others, but that should not detract from the value of the course overall. As I said before, you must contact the College and let them know. We have, for the most part, been discussing the aircraft systems module regarding content and in few of the illustrations
FG you wrote, 'As I have stated all along I welcome a “standard” to which all Ops/Dispatchers can work to and a broad based course that should be supplemented by the airlines individual requirements'.
In suggesting that the airlines should 'supplement' training for operations officers you are moving outside of the philosophy of this type of training regime. You are taking the FAA approach in this, nothing wrong with that if your training structure supports it, however, in the UK that is simply not the case in my experience, nor have we a regulatory requirement as they do in the States. As I've said before, few airlines pay much attention to the training of operations personnel and they cannot be relied upon to supplement the 'foundation' knowledge required by ops personnel.
On your point regarding the content and depth of material in the Aircraft Systems module, I am pleased that you agree that my last example re AC and Pressurisation is appropriate. That is the methodology we have applied throughout. However, I would be very worried if that was all an engineer had to know!
Regarding these Met diagrams and the quality of reproduction, I have looked at them, and where I was able to use them, I do agree that this is a fair comment and one you should make to the College, I have no doubt that they will send you replacements if it has been a problem for you.
Now as you keep returning to this question of 255 hours. That is the 255hrs detailed on the College recommended study plan for a complete novice, naturally it may be less for someone like yourself who has a background in the subject, no one is forcing you to study 255 hours or you fail, The object is, of course, that the student learns and understand the material, I would say the number of hours required is not really that important. This 255 hours includes MET, Air Law and JAR Regulations, Principles of Flight, Communications Radio Procedures, Instruments, Electrics, Propulsion, Systems. An average of 32hours per subject, some are a bit more, some a bit less. As I think I explained before, the modules do not exactly follow the 7192 study flow, note for example some principles of flight theory are required in Chapter 5 and this requirement covered in this first set of modules.
You comment.
5/ ‘We are left in a position now where we have to study for 255 hours, knowing not all of it is required and trying to decide which is the chaff and which is the wheat’.
FG, there may be a bit more than is strictly required by 7192 in aircraft systems, but can I ask you, why are you doing this course? Is it to learn the foundations of your trade or is it to get a certificate and do the absolute minimum? 7192 is the ‘foundation’ training. Again, I use the school analogy; you probably use what you learned in class everyday, e.g in doing this course you’ll use your physics. In an airline industry context, having completed this course, you are likely to use, say, aircraft performance, every time you go on shift.
A further example, our airline is about to purchase a new aircraft type, I would expect that all ops officers will be required to do a familiarisation course on the aircraft which will certainly cover the aircraft electrics, pneumatics, hydraulics systems, nav equipment, performance MEL/CDL etc. I argue that unless you have been ‘schooled’ in the fundamentals of fuel systems, hydraulics, performance etc. you will not understand what you are being taught. An Airbus or Boeing course assumes a level of understanding and does not set about teaching you the basic principles. If the first modules on this course have a bit more than is needed, so much the better. I would think that a few chapters less is not going to alter the price of this course very much.
‘but what about the poor individual, longing for a job in airline operations who finds himself £1200 short for a course that isn’t quite right yet’
FG, I can tell you the chances of being hired by me are increased 10 fold by the completion of this course, it says to me that the candidate has the ability, the commitment and I know if he/she has completed this course I only need to teach them the skills of airline ops control and not waste my time teaching them to read a met actual. And you say the course isn’t quite right. I say it is, and I have the support of most other Ops Managers in this country through UKOMA. Your money is well spent and I have no doubt the other 40 + people doing this course will find that to be the case. You are leading the pack! Note the JAROPS posting I put up this morning, note the subtle changing wording from the CAA CAP360 proposal, the use of the word ‘should’, and the need to describe in Part D.
IEM OPS 1.205 Yellow Paper
Training of Flight Operations Officers
(See JAR-OPS 1.205)
’If an operator employs Flight Operations Officers in conjunction with a method of Operational Control as defined in JAR OPS 1.195, training for these personnel should be based on relevant parts of ICAO Doc 7192 D3. This training should be described in sub Part D of the Operations Manual. This should not be taken as a requirement for Licensed Flight Dispatchers nor for a flight following system’
I know you think there is too much covered in aircraft system, but please look at the course overall and do not get too focused on the fact that we have given you more than you’ve asked for. The course materials, for the price and purpose I believe are good, and the few examples you have mentioned do not detract from the overall content or objective of meeting the 7192 training course.
Mister Rainbow
Have you read any of what I have written? Railroad us into second-rate training? Stand up for yourselves? I don’t know what your agenda is in posting such comments but I assure you no one is trying to railroad anyone into anything. You make you own choices in life, its up to you.
You Splitter
See the JAROPS1 post I put up, I had forgotten about this Part D reference as I was focused on CAP360, Part D is part of the JAROPS requirement.
Today, our CAA inspection finished and we also had to demonstrate our ops and crewing officer training records and training scheme, so the CAA is on a roll with this. Good for them, its about time.
I think we need, as you said, to agree to disagree on several points.
The few errors which have been brought to my attention were very largely down to pagination which I have addressed before, as a new course there may be a few others, but that should not detract from the value of the course overall. As I said before, you must contact the College and let them know. We have, for the most part, been discussing the aircraft systems module regarding content and in few of the illustrations
FG you wrote, 'As I have stated all along I welcome a “standard” to which all Ops/Dispatchers can work to and a broad based course that should be supplemented by the airlines individual requirements'.
In suggesting that the airlines should 'supplement' training for operations officers you are moving outside of the philosophy of this type of training regime. You are taking the FAA approach in this, nothing wrong with that if your training structure supports it, however, in the UK that is simply not the case in my experience, nor have we a regulatory requirement as they do in the States. As I've said before, few airlines pay much attention to the training of operations personnel and they cannot be relied upon to supplement the 'foundation' knowledge required by ops personnel.
On your point regarding the content and depth of material in the Aircraft Systems module, I am pleased that you agree that my last example re AC and Pressurisation is appropriate. That is the methodology we have applied throughout. However, I would be very worried if that was all an engineer had to know!
Regarding these Met diagrams and the quality of reproduction, I have looked at them, and where I was able to use them, I do agree that this is a fair comment and one you should make to the College, I have no doubt that they will send you replacements if it has been a problem for you.
Now as you keep returning to this question of 255 hours. That is the 255hrs detailed on the College recommended study plan for a complete novice, naturally it may be less for someone like yourself who has a background in the subject, no one is forcing you to study 255 hours or you fail, The object is, of course, that the student learns and understand the material, I would say the number of hours required is not really that important. This 255 hours includes MET, Air Law and JAR Regulations, Principles of Flight, Communications Radio Procedures, Instruments, Electrics, Propulsion, Systems. An average of 32hours per subject, some are a bit more, some a bit less. As I think I explained before, the modules do not exactly follow the 7192 study flow, note for example some principles of flight theory are required in Chapter 5 and this requirement covered in this first set of modules.
You comment.
5/ ‘We are left in a position now where we have to study for 255 hours, knowing not all of it is required and trying to decide which is the chaff and which is the wheat’.
FG, there may be a bit more than is strictly required by 7192 in aircraft systems, but can I ask you, why are you doing this course? Is it to learn the foundations of your trade or is it to get a certificate and do the absolute minimum? 7192 is the ‘foundation’ training. Again, I use the school analogy; you probably use what you learned in class everyday, e.g in doing this course you’ll use your physics. In an airline industry context, having completed this course, you are likely to use, say, aircraft performance, every time you go on shift.
A further example, our airline is about to purchase a new aircraft type, I would expect that all ops officers will be required to do a familiarisation course on the aircraft which will certainly cover the aircraft electrics, pneumatics, hydraulics systems, nav equipment, performance MEL/CDL etc. I argue that unless you have been ‘schooled’ in the fundamentals of fuel systems, hydraulics, performance etc. you will not understand what you are being taught. An Airbus or Boeing course assumes a level of understanding and does not set about teaching you the basic principles. If the first modules on this course have a bit more than is needed, so much the better. I would think that a few chapters less is not going to alter the price of this course very much.
‘but what about the poor individual, longing for a job in airline operations who finds himself £1200 short for a course that isn’t quite right yet’
FG, I can tell you the chances of being hired by me are increased 10 fold by the completion of this course, it says to me that the candidate has the ability, the commitment and I know if he/she has completed this course I only need to teach them the skills of airline ops control and not waste my time teaching them to read a met actual. And you say the course isn’t quite right. I say it is, and I have the support of most other Ops Managers in this country through UKOMA. Your money is well spent and I have no doubt the other 40 + people doing this course will find that to be the case. You are leading the pack! Note the JAROPS posting I put up this morning, note the subtle changing wording from the CAA CAP360 proposal, the use of the word ‘should’, and the need to describe in Part D.
IEM OPS 1.205 Yellow Paper
Training of Flight Operations Officers
(See JAR-OPS 1.205)
’If an operator employs Flight Operations Officers in conjunction with a method of Operational Control as defined in JAR OPS 1.195, training for these personnel should be based on relevant parts of ICAO Doc 7192 D3. This training should be described in sub Part D of the Operations Manual. This should not be taken as a requirement for Licensed Flight Dispatchers nor for a flight following system’
I know you think there is too much covered in aircraft system, but please look at the course overall and do not get too focused on the fact that we have given you more than you’ve asked for. The course materials, for the price and purpose I believe are good, and the few examples you have mentioned do not detract from the overall content or objective of meeting the 7192 training course.
Mister Rainbow
Have you read any of what I have written? Railroad us into second-rate training? Stand up for yourselves? I don’t know what your agenda is in posting such comments but I assure you no one is trying to railroad anyone into anything. You make you own choices in life, its up to you.
You Splitter
See the JAROPS1 post I put up, I had forgotten about this Part D reference as I was focused on CAP360, Part D is part of the JAROPS requirement.
Today, our CAA inspection finished and we also had to demonstrate our ops and crewing officer training records and training scheme, so the CAA is on a roll with this. Good for them, its about time.
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See my response on your new forum topic with regard relevance. What I “interpret” this to mean is relevance to your job. Anyway a minor point compared to the topic of my concerns.
You still seem to be missing my points and going off on a tangent, we have agreed you can’t teach “all things to all men” in this sort of course to cover the requirements of each individual operator. Hence the reason I say you have to have local procedures to cover any shortfalls in BASIC training.
In my experience, much of what is covered in module one of this course is not required and never will be required by anyone performing an Operations/Dispatch function. The course should give a BASIC grounding in some subjects as a basis for the more important topics. As stated in the previous paragraph, you cannot hope to teach it all, which is why it HAS to be supplemented by the operators’ individual requirements. This is where you shoot yourself in the foot when you say:
“In suggesting that the airlines should 'supplement' training for operations officers you are moving outside of the philosophy of this type of training regime”
And in the same breath you say:
“A further example, our airline is about to purchase a new aircraft type, I would expect that all ops officers will be required to do a familiarisation course on the aircraft which will certainly cover the aircraft electrics, pneumatics, hydraulics systems, nav equipment, performance MEL/CDL etc”
What is this if it isn’t supplementary in house training? I thought your staff were all doing this GCNS course. Surely that’s good enough ?? Obviously not, you can’t teach it ALL can you?
In further response to your new forum topic, training of operations staff is going to be included in Part D, hooo rah at last, but it will be based on RELEVANT sections of ICAO 7192, not half the drivel that this course professes to teach.
You have the experience, you have to agree that the function of an Operations controller/dispatcher (call it what you will) and his level of understanding and responsibility varies considerably from airline to airline. So the course should teach BASIC understanding and should be kept simple for the novice. Then it should be backed up by the supplementary training you say is outside this type of regime and yet proceed to adopt this approach !!
Is there anyone out there who works in Operations who has read these threads that regularly uses (as an example) electrical theory in their everyday tasks? Do you refer to circuit diagrams and advise the pilot (who I might add has done the same course content in his ATPL exam) what the problem is. OR would you refer the Captain to a “Licensed” engineer to discuss the problem. What I NEED to know is the outcome of that discussion with an engineer with regards whether the aircraft can be dispatched under the MEL/DDG and how to apply any “operational” restrictions.
Let me put this another way for those of you fortunate enough to have a crewing department 24/7. Do you need to know the CAP371 back to front inside out, a good basic knowledge or no knowledge at all? I would suggest the middle ground, the BASICS. If you find yourself needing to know more, the airline should give that to you. Same with engineering principles.
Neither ICAO 7192 nor the GCNS syllabus seems to cover crewing, but you’re more likely to discuss that with a pilot than electrical theory.
“I am pleased that you agree that my last example re AC and Pressurisation is appropriate. That is the methodology we have applied throughout. However, I would be very worried if that was all an engineer had to know!”
I would also be very worried if that’s all an engineer had to know but yet again you miss my point totally.
For starters an engineer doesn’t fix for example an ASI/VSI or whatever, that is down to the manufacturers. Indeed he can’t fix them, he can replace a faulty one. I for one am not going to call an engineer and say “ the captain’s ASI is under reading in the climb, the static source must be blocked “ that’s HIS job not mine. Think of it this way, you take a car in for a fault and you tell the mechanic what’s wrong. Do you think he takes any notice? No he doesn’t, he is the “specialist” and he has his checks to perform.
In reality an engineer may well tell you where to get off if you try and do his job as well. Even engineers I have shown this course to find it incredulous the depths it goes to. Even Pilots wonder at why I would ever need such info, in fact even THEY admit they would speak to an engineer.
Recent ATPL graduates I have spoken to and shown this material to agree this course content is similar in depth to the ATPL course. SO tell me how a novice is going to understand this without the back up of hours and hours of classroom tuition to help them ??
Do me a favour and run a poll with your Captains and ask them two questions:
1/ Who would you discuss a defect on your aircraft with, an engineer or Operations?
2/ Who would you discuss “operational restrictions” with?
I’ll tell you the response I get: 1/ An Engineer 2/ Operations
Back to the course now
Yet again you’ve missed my point on the 255 hours. Yes that is for a novice, but how many of us Ops bods are a novice at most of this material – quite a few I would guess. I say and so does ICAO 7192, that we don’t need all this padding. 12 hours is their recommendation, not the 155 just for aircraft systems. Yes I know you now agree your interpretation was wrong. That still leaves us with a lot of stuff we don’t need and I still maintain it should be recalled and corrected. I’m sure Modules two and three will have more appropriate content but that still brings up the other points I have mentioned.
I could write pages on errors found in this material. We have already had three pages of hand written amendments, a supply of two missing pages and a new met book (as previously stated also still contains errors) and these only cover the first few weeks of the course. Doesn’t bode well for future studies IMHO.
Why was the course not thoroughly proof read before it was sent out, there are too many mistakes, typing errors and grammatical errors that should have been spotted by any competent proof reader. How on earth you can’t even match correct answers with questions in the self-assessment tasks is beyond belief. Maybe the course has gone so deep you don’t understand the question yourself and find the mistakes impossible to spot !!
Why am I taking this course ?
Good question – simply because I expected to be taught things I need to know to do my job. I don’t profess to know everything and I never will. What I did expect is to be TAUGHT things by way of explanation. Unfortunately this course just gives statement after statement and if you can apply them in the situation it’s given to you that’s fine. The theory is not covered sufficiently to equip you to cope in a situation that is out of context with the course.
The cut and paste methodology of the course leaves much of the material hanging and waiting for the bit you’ve cut out. It makes references to material that is no longer there, again because it’s been cut out.
As well as finally admitting there is too much content in module one, you now concur with my complaint of poor reproduction and although you only admit there are “a few errors” you WILL find more. So do the decent thing, recall it, correct it and re-issue it. If you so much want to set the standard for UK airline Operations staff, lets for Christ’s sake set a damned good one !!
Have you ever studied at University level ? I haven’t but I’ll tell you one thing, I have been to an Open University open night and looked at the quality they produce. Have a look if you can, compare the two and tell me you can’t spot the difference.
So you have the support of the majority of UK operations Managers ? I wonder how many realised the depths you intended to go into. How many have sat down and tried to read this stuff and understand it ?? Maybe you sold the idea of ICAO doc 7192, but this course ?
As I have no idea of the consultation process you had with the UKOMA, I can’t really comment further, but I will say this, I have difficulty accepting that any Operations Manager would expect this level of understanding (Aircraft systems) from their staff. I would have thought they were also expecting you to make sure the quality and content were right.
Lets face it, what qualification do GCNS have to run an Operations course? Being a JAR approved college doesn’t make them experts on airline operations, hence the reason you were brought in. So this is your baby, take some responsibility for it and get it RIGHT.
So rather than question Mister Rainbow’s agenda I find myself questioning yours. As previously stated what you are trying to achieve is commendable, but I wish you had the honesty and integrity to admit it falls short of what it should be in its current form.
Railroad into second rate training I believe Mister Rainbow said, railroad – possibly, every indication was given that THIS course was going to be the standard the CAA/JAR expected, but as you quite rightly pointed out ICAO7192 IS the standard but this course clearly isn’t. Second rate I believe Mister Rainbow said - I AGREE for all the reasons you either miss or choose to ignore.
I look at this first module and I see errors, poor quality of reproduction, lack of clarity, poor grammar, inappropriate and debateable content, lack of continuity, poor explanation and a price tag, that as super aviator says is a nice little money spinner. I wonder how much faith a novice taking this course is placing on it. You would take the person who has completed this course would you ? Well god help you, I’ll take the FAA dispatcher every time.
Although this thread is getting a little long winded and I apologise for that. I really would appreciate any feedback, as I’m sure no sig would too. Even if your not doing the course, what are your opinions or experience of what the function/duties are for an Operations controller.
Over to you, I’ve exhausted my opinion (and my fingers !!).
Best regards
FG
See my response on your new forum topic with regard relevance. What I “interpret” this to mean is relevance to your job. Anyway a minor point compared to the topic of my concerns.
You still seem to be missing my points and going off on a tangent, we have agreed you can’t teach “all things to all men” in this sort of course to cover the requirements of each individual operator. Hence the reason I say you have to have local procedures to cover any shortfalls in BASIC training.
In my experience, much of what is covered in module one of this course is not required and never will be required by anyone performing an Operations/Dispatch function. The course should give a BASIC grounding in some subjects as a basis for the more important topics. As stated in the previous paragraph, you cannot hope to teach it all, which is why it HAS to be supplemented by the operators’ individual requirements. This is where you shoot yourself in the foot when you say:
“In suggesting that the airlines should 'supplement' training for operations officers you are moving outside of the philosophy of this type of training regime”
And in the same breath you say:
“A further example, our airline is about to purchase a new aircraft type, I would expect that all ops officers will be required to do a familiarisation course on the aircraft which will certainly cover the aircraft electrics, pneumatics, hydraulics systems, nav equipment, performance MEL/CDL etc”
What is this if it isn’t supplementary in house training? I thought your staff were all doing this GCNS course. Surely that’s good enough ?? Obviously not, you can’t teach it ALL can you?
In further response to your new forum topic, training of operations staff is going to be included in Part D, hooo rah at last, but it will be based on RELEVANT sections of ICAO 7192, not half the drivel that this course professes to teach.
You have the experience, you have to agree that the function of an Operations controller/dispatcher (call it what you will) and his level of understanding and responsibility varies considerably from airline to airline. So the course should teach BASIC understanding and should be kept simple for the novice. Then it should be backed up by the supplementary training you say is outside this type of regime and yet proceed to adopt this approach !!
Is there anyone out there who works in Operations who has read these threads that regularly uses (as an example) electrical theory in their everyday tasks? Do you refer to circuit diagrams and advise the pilot (who I might add has done the same course content in his ATPL exam) what the problem is. OR would you refer the Captain to a “Licensed” engineer to discuss the problem. What I NEED to know is the outcome of that discussion with an engineer with regards whether the aircraft can be dispatched under the MEL/DDG and how to apply any “operational” restrictions.
Let me put this another way for those of you fortunate enough to have a crewing department 24/7. Do you need to know the CAP371 back to front inside out, a good basic knowledge or no knowledge at all? I would suggest the middle ground, the BASICS. If you find yourself needing to know more, the airline should give that to you. Same with engineering principles.
Neither ICAO 7192 nor the GCNS syllabus seems to cover crewing, but you’re more likely to discuss that with a pilot than electrical theory.
“I am pleased that you agree that my last example re AC and Pressurisation is appropriate. That is the methodology we have applied throughout. However, I would be very worried if that was all an engineer had to know!”
I would also be very worried if that’s all an engineer had to know but yet again you miss my point totally.
For starters an engineer doesn’t fix for example an ASI/VSI or whatever, that is down to the manufacturers. Indeed he can’t fix them, he can replace a faulty one. I for one am not going to call an engineer and say “ the captain’s ASI is under reading in the climb, the static source must be blocked “ that’s HIS job not mine. Think of it this way, you take a car in for a fault and you tell the mechanic what’s wrong. Do you think he takes any notice? No he doesn’t, he is the “specialist” and he has his checks to perform.
In reality an engineer may well tell you where to get off if you try and do his job as well. Even engineers I have shown this course to find it incredulous the depths it goes to. Even Pilots wonder at why I would ever need such info, in fact even THEY admit they would speak to an engineer.
Recent ATPL graduates I have spoken to and shown this material to agree this course content is similar in depth to the ATPL course. SO tell me how a novice is going to understand this without the back up of hours and hours of classroom tuition to help them ??
Do me a favour and run a poll with your Captains and ask them two questions:
1/ Who would you discuss a defect on your aircraft with, an engineer or Operations?
2/ Who would you discuss “operational restrictions” with?
I’ll tell you the response I get: 1/ An Engineer 2/ Operations
Back to the course now
Yet again you’ve missed my point on the 255 hours. Yes that is for a novice, but how many of us Ops bods are a novice at most of this material – quite a few I would guess. I say and so does ICAO 7192, that we don’t need all this padding. 12 hours is their recommendation, not the 155 just for aircraft systems. Yes I know you now agree your interpretation was wrong. That still leaves us with a lot of stuff we don’t need and I still maintain it should be recalled and corrected. I’m sure Modules two and three will have more appropriate content but that still brings up the other points I have mentioned.
I could write pages on errors found in this material. We have already had three pages of hand written amendments, a supply of two missing pages and a new met book (as previously stated also still contains errors) and these only cover the first few weeks of the course. Doesn’t bode well for future studies IMHO.
Why was the course not thoroughly proof read before it was sent out, there are too many mistakes, typing errors and grammatical errors that should have been spotted by any competent proof reader. How on earth you can’t even match correct answers with questions in the self-assessment tasks is beyond belief. Maybe the course has gone so deep you don’t understand the question yourself and find the mistakes impossible to spot !!
Why am I taking this course ?
Good question – simply because I expected to be taught things I need to know to do my job. I don’t profess to know everything and I never will. What I did expect is to be TAUGHT things by way of explanation. Unfortunately this course just gives statement after statement and if you can apply them in the situation it’s given to you that’s fine. The theory is not covered sufficiently to equip you to cope in a situation that is out of context with the course.
The cut and paste methodology of the course leaves much of the material hanging and waiting for the bit you’ve cut out. It makes references to material that is no longer there, again because it’s been cut out.
As well as finally admitting there is too much content in module one, you now concur with my complaint of poor reproduction and although you only admit there are “a few errors” you WILL find more. So do the decent thing, recall it, correct it and re-issue it. If you so much want to set the standard for UK airline Operations staff, lets for Christ’s sake set a damned good one !!
Have you ever studied at University level ? I haven’t but I’ll tell you one thing, I have been to an Open University open night and looked at the quality they produce. Have a look if you can, compare the two and tell me you can’t spot the difference.
So you have the support of the majority of UK operations Managers ? I wonder how many realised the depths you intended to go into. How many have sat down and tried to read this stuff and understand it ?? Maybe you sold the idea of ICAO doc 7192, but this course ?
As I have no idea of the consultation process you had with the UKOMA, I can’t really comment further, but I will say this, I have difficulty accepting that any Operations Manager would expect this level of understanding (Aircraft systems) from their staff. I would have thought they were also expecting you to make sure the quality and content were right.
Lets face it, what qualification do GCNS have to run an Operations course? Being a JAR approved college doesn’t make them experts on airline operations, hence the reason you were brought in. So this is your baby, take some responsibility for it and get it RIGHT.
So rather than question Mister Rainbow’s agenda I find myself questioning yours. As previously stated what you are trying to achieve is commendable, but I wish you had the honesty and integrity to admit it falls short of what it should be in its current form.
Railroad into second rate training I believe Mister Rainbow said, railroad – possibly, every indication was given that THIS course was going to be the standard the CAA/JAR expected, but as you quite rightly pointed out ICAO7192 IS the standard but this course clearly isn’t. Second rate I believe Mister Rainbow said - I AGREE for all the reasons you either miss or choose to ignore.
I look at this first module and I see errors, poor quality of reproduction, lack of clarity, poor grammar, inappropriate and debateable content, lack of continuity, poor explanation and a price tag, that as super aviator says is a nice little money spinner. I wonder how much faith a novice taking this course is placing on it. You would take the person who has completed this course would you ? Well god help you, I’ll take the FAA dispatcher every time.
Although this thread is getting a little long winded and I apologise for that. I really would appreciate any feedback, as I’m sure no sig would too. Even if your not doing the course, what are your opinions or experience of what the function/duties are for an Operations controller.
Over to you, I’ve exhausted my opinion (and my fingers !!).
Best regards
FG
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Afternoon gentlemen,
I've been observing the content of this thread with mounting interest and now feel compelled to add my tuppance worth.
I too am studying this course. My motives? As a Flight Operations Manager in the RAF my knowledge is gained through osmosis, currently I am the FOM on a Jag Sqn and have to interact with pilots and engineers throughout my day. I felt my trade knowledge required bolstering and subsequently enrolled on the course, at my own expense as the RAF won't subsidise me sufficiently.
On receiving module one I was amazed at the volume of documentation, however not being in civil aviation I felt it was not up to me to question this as there are quite clearly fundamental differences to military and civil aircraft ops and anyway maybe you need this stuff in civvie street. Furthermore my intention for the future is to depart Aunty Betties finest and pursue a career with an airline at Stansted so I am keen to prepare and display my motivation to any potential employers.
Up until now I have been studying this course with mounting frustration, the quality of the product is appalling, I have actually studied two OU courses and concur that the quality of their study materials is far, far superior!
The poor grammer makes for trying reading, the quality of the diagrams does not make comprehension easier and the numerous mistakes in the text and the self assessment tests have all resulted in my complete loss of faith in the integrity of this course, or put another way, how do I know that what I am reading and trying to understand is indeed the case?
The cost of £1200 I consider to be prohibitive, especially when you compare the cost of the entire ATPL syllibus from Oxford Aviation, around £540, and the qulaity of the product is extremely high.
As I am serving in the RAF I am not covered by ICAO/JAR/JAA so the correspondence on these subjects is outside my knowledge, however as my intention is to pursue a career in civil aviation I am interested and if anyone can point me in the right direction of Doc 7192 I would be very grateful.
To summarise, I am rather dissapointed in the course so far, not so much the content but more the qulaity of the product, however on the plus side, my cred on the Jag Sqn I am the FOM for has risen hugely, not only with the two winged master race but also the 'ginger beers'. Whether I need to know the intricacies of a pressure ASI, radio theory or aircraft structure is not the point, the simple fact that I understand them and can make informed decisions based on that knowledge is what matters. I am enjoying expanding my knowledge and the fact that I am potentially gaining an industry recognised qualification ensures that my time is being spent productively. If No Sig and his mates in the recruitment side of airline ops value this course then I am prepared to slog it out because the benefits outweigh any shortcomings.
I await your responses.
Mosquito.
I've been observing the content of this thread with mounting interest and now feel compelled to add my tuppance worth.
I too am studying this course. My motives? As a Flight Operations Manager in the RAF my knowledge is gained through osmosis, currently I am the FOM on a Jag Sqn and have to interact with pilots and engineers throughout my day. I felt my trade knowledge required bolstering and subsequently enrolled on the course, at my own expense as the RAF won't subsidise me sufficiently.
On receiving module one I was amazed at the volume of documentation, however not being in civil aviation I felt it was not up to me to question this as there are quite clearly fundamental differences to military and civil aircraft ops and anyway maybe you need this stuff in civvie street. Furthermore my intention for the future is to depart Aunty Betties finest and pursue a career with an airline at Stansted so I am keen to prepare and display my motivation to any potential employers.
Up until now I have been studying this course with mounting frustration, the quality of the product is appalling, I have actually studied two OU courses and concur that the quality of their study materials is far, far superior!
The poor grammer makes for trying reading, the quality of the diagrams does not make comprehension easier and the numerous mistakes in the text and the self assessment tests have all resulted in my complete loss of faith in the integrity of this course, or put another way, how do I know that what I am reading and trying to understand is indeed the case?
The cost of £1200 I consider to be prohibitive, especially when you compare the cost of the entire ATPL syllibus from Oxford Aviation, around £540, and the qulaity of the product is extremely high.
As I am serving in the RAF I am not covered by ICAO/JAR/JAA so the correspondence on these subjects is outside my knowledge, however as my intention is to pursue a career in civil aviation I am interested and if anyone can point me in the right direction of Doc 7192 I would be very grateful.
To summarise, I am rather dissapointed in the course so far, not so much the content but more the qulaity of the product, however on the plus side, my cred on the Jag Sqn I am the FOM for has risen hugely, not only with the two winged master race but also the 'ginger beers'. Whether I need to know the intricacies of a pressure ASI, radio theory or aircraft structure is not the point, the simple fact that I understand them and can make informed decisions based on that knowledge is what matters. I am enjoying expanding my knowledge and the fact that I am potentially gaining an industry recognised qualification ensures that my time is being spent productively. If No Sig and his mates in the recruitment side of airline ops value this course then I am prepared to slog it out because the benefits outweigh any shortcomings.
I await your responses.
Mosquito.
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FG
I feel I have exhausted my input to this thread with respect to our debate. There isn’t much more that I can add that I haven’t said before in my previous posts.
I’ve come to the conclusion that your experience of airline ops and mine is sufficiently different that we are probably not going to resolve the issue regarding how much one needs to teach in a foundation knowledge course. But for the benefit of others on this thread, once again, this is the first module and I have agreed we have, in aircraft systems, included more than is strictly necessary. I also assured you that in the next modules we are guarding against that by a more critical review before publication by the airline moderators group.
Regarding supplementary training, I am afraid you seem to be missing my point as well. The simplest analogy I can use is with respect to a pilot. When an airline hires a pilot and puts him through a type conversion there is a natural assumption that that individual has the ‘foundation’ technical knowledge to understand the ‘operating principles’ of his aircraft. He does not go into the classroom to study the principles of aircraft systems, he did that already in his ATPL studies, rather he goes in to study the manufacturer approach to and operation’ of, the systems of that particular aircraft. Likewise, in this course the ops officer is learning about aircraft systems, not, I hasten to add, to ATPL level, but to a generally slimmed down version to doc 7192. Therefore, when our ops officers go to do the Airbus familiarisation course, which is a slimmed down version of the pilot’s Airbus course, they will more readily understand the ‘operation’ of the system on the Airbus.
In your comments regarding the level of knowledge an ops officer is required to have regarding CAP371, I fail to see how an ops officer can do his job without a thorough understanding of his airlines FTL scheme (CAP371). And incidentally, crewing and FTL’s will be covered on this course in the Flight Monitoring section.
This is a distance learning course and has been designed as such, if a student needs help he contacts the college. The course was outlined to UKOMA in a presentation by the college around a year or so ago at which time a working group was formed, it continues as I have explained before.
FG, we’ve both spent a great deal of time on this subject and despite our disagreements regarding the content of the first modules of this course, your input is appreciated and be assured that I will take what you and others have said to the airline moderators. I will ask, via the UKOMA group, for a review of the aircraft systems modules against the course learning objects and for those starting the course at a later date we will have more closely aligned these modules with 7192 in due course.
However, there is now little to be gained by me going over old ground and I'll leave it at that.
DH98
Mosquito
I note your comments regarding the course and would ask you to speak with the college directly, as you clearly feel there is room for improvement then they must know and I have no doubt they will want your input. You have encapsulated a great deal of what I have been trying to say in your last paragraph regarding the credibility gained etc., this is the case in civilian airline ops as well. Be assured that the materials you will study in this course will provide you with the foundation knowledge for a career in civilian airline ops and significantly increase you chances of employment. (see your pprune pvt. messages re doc 7192)
I feel I have exhausted my input to this thread with respect to our debate. There isn’t much more that I can add that I haven’t said before in my previous posts.
I’ve come to the conclusion that your experience of airline ops and mine is sufficiently different that we are probably not going to resolve the issue regarding how much one needs to teach in a foundation knowledge course. But for the benefit of others on this thread, once again, this is the first module and I have agreed we have, in aircraft systems, included more than is strictly necessary. I also assured you that in the next modules we are guarding against that by a more critical review before publication by the airline moderators group.
Regarding supplementary training, I am afraid you seem to be missing my point as well. The simplest analogy I can use is with respect to a pilot. When an airline hires a pilot and puts him through a type conversion there is a natural assumption that that individual has the ‘foundation’ technical knowledge to understand the ‘operating principles’ of his aircraft. He does not go into the classroom to study the principles of aircraft systems, he did that already in his ATPL studies, rather he goes in to study the manufacturer approach to and operation’ of, the systems of that particular aircraft. Likewise, in this course the ops officer is learning about aircraft systems, not, I hasten to add, to ATPL level, but to a generally slimmed down version to doc 7192. Therefore, when our ops officers go to do the Airbus familiarisation course, which is a slimmed down version of the pilot’s Airbus course, they will more readily understand the ‘operation’ of the system on the Airbus.
In your comments regarding the level of knowledge an ops officer is required to have regarding CAP371, I fail to see how an ops officer can do his job without a thorough understanding of his airlines FTL scheme (CAP371). And incidentally, crewing and FTL’s will be covered on this course in the Flight Monitoring section.
This is a distance learning course and has been designed as such, if a student needs help he contacts the college. The course was outlined to UKOMA in a presentation by the college around a year or so ago at which time a working group was formed, it continues as I have explained before.
FG, we’ve both spent a great deal of time on this subject and despite our disagreements regarding the content of the first modules of this course, your input is appreciated and be assured that I will take what you and others have said to the airline moderators. I will ask, via the UKOMA group, for a review of the aircraft systems modules against the course learning objects and for those starting the course at a later date we will have more closely aligned these modules with 7192 in due course.
However, there is now little to be gained by me going over old ground and I'll leave it at that.
DH98
Mosquito
I note your comments regarding the course and would ask you to speak with the college directly, as you clearly feel there is room for improvement then they must know and I have no doubt they will want your input. You have encapsulated a great deal of what I have been trying to say in your last paragraph regarding the credibility gained etc., this is the case in civilian airline ops as well. Be assured that the materials you will study in this course will provide you with the foundation knowledge for a career in civilian airline ops and significantly increase you chances of employment. (see your pprune pvt. messages re doc 7192)
Last edited by no sig; 18th Jan 2003 at 16:31.
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Well readers, looks like the end of the line on this one
I will of course leave you to draw your own conclusions, you have 3 people who have reported here they are unhappy with the course. Only ONE, the course moderator thinks its the "standard". But of course he would. I would suggest there are others that are unhappy but will not comment as they are "known".
We also seem to have a moderator who now seems to be passing his "baby" and the buck back to the College. Lets forget defining an Ops Controllers job, maybe we should start a new thread and define a course moderators job ?? what do you reckon ?
"I fail to see how an ops officer can do his job without a thorough understanding of his airlines FTL scheme (CAP371)."
A little out of context No Sig but I quite frankly don't care anymore, I said with a crewing dept operating 24/7. I didn't say I didn't know the CAP371 inside out, I said I didn't need to with a crewing dept. For christ sake why have a crewing department and an engineering department when the ops controller knows it all !!!!! Is that not what a team is for ??
Distance learning is just that, it requires a great deal or CAREFUL explanation to understand it, this course fails, sorry those are the facts.
Good luck to all of you unfortunate enough to have paid £1200 for this course, I hope you do as well as possible. On a personal note I haven't quite decided what I am going to do with mine, I can't really afford to ditch it, but hey, it'll keep me supplied in toilet paper for a while.
Cheers and signing off
FG
I will of course leave you to draw your own conclusions, you have 3 people who have reported here they are unhappy with the course. Only ONE, the course moderator thinks its the "standard". But of course he would. I would suggest there are others that are unhappy but will not comment as they are "known".
We also seem to have a moderator who now seems to be passing his "baby" and the buck back to the College. Lets forget defining an Ops Controllers job, maybe we should start a new thread and define a course moderators job ?? what do you reckon ?
"I fail to see how an ops officer can do his job without a thorough understanding of his airlines FTL scheme (CAP371)."
A little out of context No Sig but I quite frankly don't care anymore, I said with a crewing dept operating 24/7. I didn't say I didn't know the CAP371 inside out, I said I didn't need to with a crewing dept. For christ sake why have a crewing department and an engineering department when the ops controller knows it all !!!!! Is that not what a team is for ??
Distance learning is just that, it requires a great deal or CAREFUL explanation to understand it, this course fails, sorry those are the facts.
Good luck to all of you unfortunate enough to have paid £1200 for this course, I hope you do as well as possible. On a personal note I haven't quite decided what I am going to do with mine, I can't really afford to ditch it, but hey, it'll keep me supplied in toilet paper for a while.
Cheers and signing off
FG
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FG
I was going to leave it at that, but your comments have become personally directed, I find that disappointing, I thought that perhaps we had reached an agreement to disagree.
No one is passing the buck on anything- I have said from the begining your are students of the GCNS and of course you must contact them directly. I am but one of 4 moderators, I just happen to be a bit of a PPRUNE'r hence I respond here where the others may not.
What's all this about then?
'I would suggest there are others that are unhappy but will not comment as they are "known".
... for fear of retribution of some kind?
I am now begining to wonder what your agenda is FG with comments like that, perhaps you would care to explain. I thought I was engaged in an honest debate, I wonder now.
I was going to leave it at that, but your comments have become personally directed, I find that disappointing, I thought that perhaps we had reached an agreement to disagree.
No one is passing the buck on anything- I have said from the begining your are students of the GCNS and of course you must contact them directly. I am but one of 4 moderators, I just happen to be a bit of a PPRUNE'r hence I respond here where the others may not.
What's all this about then?
'I would suggest there are others that are unhappy but will not comment as they are "known".
... for fear of retribution of some kind?
I am now begining to wonder what your agenda is FG with comments like that, perhaps you would care to explain. I thought I was engaged in an honest debate, I wonder now.
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I too was going to "leave it at that" but you have now also got my back up. So I will explain.
'I would suggest there are others that are unhappy but will not comment as they are "known".
If you had actually read my previous posts you would understand what I meant. But I'll explain again in the context it was meant, out of your 20 or so Easyjet students taking this course, if you actually asked them "off the record" what they thought of the course you might be surprised, Yes possible retribution. As you so rightly pointed out, some are novices and any of your staff not complying with your standard and also "happen to be a bit of a PPRUNE'r" are hardly likely to speak out if they are "known" to you. Nothing sinister intended, I was just asking you to maybe accept there is room for improvement.
On the same hand, if your staff all thought this was the all singing all dancing course you say it is, why don't they defend it. In fact why does no-one defend it other than yourself. I also accept maybe there are no other "Pruner's" that are taking htis course that are reading this thread, but your 3-0 down at present. Get all your happy staff to sign up and post on here.
"No one is passing the buck on anything- I have said from the begining your are students of the GCNS and of course you must contact them directly."
I refer the honerable gentleman to the answer I gave earlier about the function of a course moderator. As I said earlier, GCNS are not, as far as I'm concerned, qualified to present this course or be blamed for its content. "hence the reason you were brought in". Quality of reproduction etc can be attributed to them but a course moderator is responsible for the content, in the same way a moderator moderates these forums. I'm still awaiting a letter from GCNS with the results of your moderators meeting (without going back to find it, I think you said the 7th of Jan). That's almost two weeks ago. I believe you told your students at Easyjet that module one contained some overkill. I still haven't had anything like that from GCNS. Or is that information just for Easyjet students and the rest of us are kept in the dark ??
Alas I digress, this isn't the reason I am responding.
I too am disappointed in you sir
"I am now begining to wonder what your agenda is FG with comments like that"
Go back and read what I have said all along and I'll tell you my agenda.
I want an accurate course, a good standard at a fair price and not feel ripped off. At the moment I feel I am being ripped off along with 50 or so other people. All I am saying and have said all along, not enough time has been put into the quality or the checking of the course material. Three people have taken the trouble to point out their feelings but you have ducked and dived all the way through in true politician style.
I accept we obviously come from varying backgrounds regarding operations, but that brings up the whole point again of how far this course should go with regard "relevant" material. It all boils down to interpretation and what you feel the job is. I have noted all along you only respond to items in my posts that you feel you can put up an arguement and by pass the rest - a true politician.
My post before last took me hours to prepare and to try and get my points across but you hardly addressed any of them. If I wanted to give you a few lines and just say the course is s**t, I could have done, but I have tried to give you honest opinion of what I consider to be wrong. Others have agreed, I accept only three have complained on here, but no-one has supported you.
I haven't asked for the course to be scrapped, far from it, I have said all along the idea is commendable and welcomed. But there are too many errors in its current form. It needs looking at.
as you said earlier lets not degenerate further.
regards
FG
I too was going to "leave it at that" but you have now also got my back up. So I will explain.
'I would suggest there are others that are unhappy but will not comment as they are "known".
If you had actually read my previous posts you would understand what I meant. But I'll explain again in the context it was meant, out of your 20 or so Easyjet students taking this course, if you actually asked them "off the record" what they thought of the course you might be surprised, Yes possible retribution. As you so rightly pointed out, some are novices and any of your staff not complying with your standard and also "happen to be a bit of a PPRUNE'r" are hardly likely to speak out if they are "known" to you. Nothing sinister intended, I was just asking you to maybe accept there is room for improvement.
On the same hand, if your staff all thought this was the all singing all dancing course you say it is, why don't they defend it. In fact why does no-one defend it other than yourself. I also accept maybe there are no other "Pruner's" that are taking htis course that are reading this thread, but your 3-0 down at present. Get all your happy staff to sign up and post on here.
"No one is passing the buck on anything- I have said from the begining your are students of the GCNS and of course you must contact them directly."
I refer the honerable gentleman to the answer I gave earlier about the function of a course moderator. As I said earlier, GCNS are not, as far as I'm concerned, qualified to present this course or be blamed for its content. "hence the reason you were brought in". Quality of reproduction etc can be attributed to them but a course moderator is responsible for the content, in the same way a moderator moderates these forums. I'm still awaiting a letter from GCNS with the results of your moderators meeting (without going back to find it, I think you said the 7th of Jan). That's almost two weeks ago. I believe you told your students at Easyjet that module one contained some overkill. I still haven't had anything like that from GCNS. Or is that information just for Easyjet students and the rest of us are kept in the dark ??
Alas I digress, this isn't the reason I am responding.
I too am disappointed in you sir
"I am now begining to wonder what your agenda is FG with comments like that"
Go back and read what I have said all along and I'll tell you my agenda.
I want an accurate course, a good standard at a fair price and not feel ripped off. At the moment I feel I am being ripped off along with 50 or so other people. All I am saying and have said all along, not enough time has been put into the quality or the checking of the course material. Three people have taken the trouble to point out their feelings but you have ducked and dived all the way through in true politician style.
I accept we obviously come from varying backgrounds regarding operations, but that brings up the whole point again of how far this course should go with regard "relevant" material. It all boils down to interpretation and what you feel the job is. I have noted all along you only respond to items in my posts that you feel you can put up an arguement and by pass the rest - a true politician.
My post before last took me hours to prepare and to try and get my points across but you hardly addressed any of them. If I wanted to give you a few lines and just say the course is s**t, I could have done, but I have tried to give you honest opinion of what I consider to be wrong. Others have agreed, I accept only three have complained on here, but no-one has supported you.
I haven't asked for the course to be scrapped, far from it, I have said all along the idea is commendable and welcomed. But there are too many errors in its current form. It needs looking at.
as you said earlier lets not degenerate further.
regards
FG
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FG
Dear oh dear FG, if you but knew the way we have approached this course in easyJet you would not suggest that anyone might be in 'fear of retribution'. For a start easy pays for anyone who is committed and signs up for the course, it has held breifings meetings prior to the course to let everyone know that this is a course of 'robust study' and explain the content, it has a forum on our inside easyjet website for help and we have held support follow up meetings for those on the course, and we intend to hold more in the near future. We are also attemping to find 'homegrown' ops talent and those in the company who complete the course will stand a very good chance of a job in ops/crewing in the future. It is also, linked to promotion for those in the ops room. What you also clearly don't know, is that none of these people report to me as I have moved job in the past few months, even before I did, most of them did not report to me as many are from other departments in easyJet not just ops/crewing. Those outside ops are managed, with respect to the course, through our 'People people development group who are a sort of personnel department.
FG, I have read every one of you comments and spents hours, answering you to, but also also for those reading this forum in general.
please read back, I repeat from my second but last posting...
"FG, we’ve both spent a great deal of time on this subject and despite our disagreements regarding the content of the first modules of this course, your input is appreciated and be assured that I will take what you and others have said to the airline moderators. I will ask, via the UKOMA group, for a review of the aircraft systems modules against the course learning objects and for those starting the course at a later date we will have more closely aligned these modules with 7192 in due course".
Now please, lets call it a day.
Dear oh dear FG, if you but knew the way we have approached this course in easyJet you would not suggest that anyone might be in 'fear of retribution'. For a start easy pays for anyone who is committed and signs up for the course, it has held breifings meetings prior to the course to let everyone know that this is a course of 'robust study' and explain the content, it has a forum on our inside easyjet website for help and we have held support follow up meetings for those on the course, and we intend to hold more in the near future. We are also attemping to find 'homegrown' ops talent and those in the company who complete the course will stand a very good chance of a job in ops/crewing in the future. It is also, linked to promotion for those in the ops room. What you also clearly don't know, is that none of these people report to me as I have moved job in the past few months, even before I did, most of them did not report to me as many are from other departments in easyJet not just ops/crewing. Those outside ops are managed, with respect to the course, through our 'People people development group who are a sort of personnel department.
FG, I have read every one of you comments and spents hours, answering you to, but also also for those reading this forum in general.
please read back, I repeat from my second but last posting...
"FG, we’ve both spent a great deal of time on this subject and despite our disagreements regarding the content of the first modules of this course, your input is appreciated and be assured that I will take what you and others have said to the airline moderators. I will ask, via the UKOMA group, for a review of the aircraft systems modules against the course learning objects and for those starting the course at a later date we will have more closely aligned these modules with 7192 in due course".
Now please, lets call it a day.
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I agree let's call it a day, I think we’ll just leave it to the readers to decide BUT:
Once again you have taken me out of context with regards asking Easyjet staff to comment "off the record" so let’s take a slightly different approach but along the same lines, let me offer you a challenge in true aviation style with a “howgozit” questionnaire.
It isn't just the relevance that I have complained about its the quality and errors etc etc,
Ask the college to send out a mid course critique to ALL students taking the course to return without names attached covering the following topics
Quality of materials
“Relevance”
Clarity of explanation
Ease of understanding
Would you recommend this course to a novice?
Most courses would run something similar to this at the end anyway, but as it’s a new course, let’s have one now. Publish the results on this forum and of course to the students that don’t come on here. If you get everybody apart from the three who have complained in here in favour, I will apologise and forever hold my peace.
It wouldn’t cost much to do, 5 minutes to knock up a form and 50 or so stamps and envelopes. It would also show your commitment to the course as you see it. Come on, you are a course moderator, let’s see you moderate and take the challenge.
Best regards
FG
I agree let's call it a day, I think we’ll just leave it to the readers to decide BUT:
Once again you have taken me out of context with regards asking Easyjet staff to comment "off the record" so let’s take a slightly different approach but along the same lines, let me offer you a challenge in true aviation style with a “howgozit” questionnaire.
It isn't just the relevance that I have complained about its the quality and errors etc etc,
Ask the college to send out a mid course critique to ALL students taking the course to return without names attached covering the following topics
Quality of materials
“Relevance”
Clarity of explanation
Ease of understanding
Would you recommend this course to a novice?
Most courses would run something similar to this at the end anyway, but as it’s a new course, let’s have one now. Publish the results on this forum and of course to the students that don’t come on here. If you get everybody apart from the three who have complained in here in favour, I will apologise and forever hold my peace.
It wouldn’t cost much to do, 5 minutes to knock up a form and 50 or so stamps and envelopes. It would also show your commitment to the course as you see it. Come on, you are a course moderator, let’s see you moderate and take the challenge.
Best regards
FG