Blame the Ops Dept ???
Guest
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Walla - U might want to look at a thread in misc. There is everything explained about the boring icons 
And yes, I hate it too, when the ops dep is blamed for everything. Blame us for the weather, u/s AC, strikes in other deps, U must have to understand IT IS WHAT WE ARE HERE FOR!! Dispatching is just an extrajob we do, when nobody blames us.
And yes, I hate it too, when the ops dep is blamed for everything. Blame us for the weather, u/s AC, strikes in other deps, U must have to understand IT IS WHAT WE ARE HERE FOR!! Dispatching is just an extrajob we do, when nobody blames us.
Guest
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Guy's I'm gonna venture into what is becoming a heated argument and put my two pennethworth in also.
I have to admit I am a pilot although I am currently undergoing my training as part of a sponsorship with one of the airlines.
As part of this sponsorship the company asked me to do 2 weeks in ops as a way of learning how and what ops do. this experience included working the 12 hour day AND night shift and all the crappy jobs that ops end up with. As it turns out I am now a part time Ops Officer.
What I am building to is that I don't think that crews are aware of exactly what ops do for them (for example how many of the crews understand the intricacies of CFMU or know how to book slots etc, they just expect it all to be done.) I think the time I have spent and continue to spend in the ops environment will make me not only more efficient as a crew member but also make the working relations between ops and crews that little bit less 'us and them'
Perhaps crew should be asked to do the same as I have done, perhaps they might learn something about commercial air operations that my benifit them (such as when to put in an REA)
Hope that pacifies some ops people and sparks a little more debate!
I have to admit I am a pilot although I am currently undergoing my training as part of a sponsorship with one of the airlines.
As part of this sponsorship the company asked me to do 2 weeks in ops as a way of learning how and what ops do. this experience included working the 12 hour day AND night shift and all the crappy jobs that ops end up with. As it turns out I am now a part time Ops Officer.
What I am building to is that I don't think that crews are aware of exactly what ops do for them (for example how many of the crews understand the intricacies of CFMU or know how to book slots etc, they just expect it all to be done.) I think the time I have spent and continue to spend in the ops environment will make me not only more efficient as a crew member but also make the working relations between ops and crews that little bit less 'us and them'
Perhaps crew should be asked to do the same as I have done, perhaps they might learn something about commercial air operations that my benifit them (such as when to put in an REA)
Hope that pacifies some ops people and sparks a little more debate!
Guest
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Well said boxjockey!
As taildragger has found out to his detriment on another ops thread, some ops guys seem to be very much stuck in the us and them past.
Splendid idea that you fly boys (and girls!) spend some time with the hard working ops lads - bit of appreciation for what the other side does never goes amiss - just be sure you can find you're way to the kitchen!
BTW, can I borrow some of those Lennon tapes, cr@p set of shifts just finished!
Guest
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Has anyone ever stopped long enough to consider why 'it's blame the ops department'?
The negative responses that have been posted indicate that those people have not yet grasped the ops function.
As the nerve center of the airline, all departments look at ops for the answers, you have control of day to day ops. And just like in any other business in order to function efficiently there has to be a two-way flow of information.
As the Ops Dept don't forget you are also in the service industry and your major customers are the aircrew, like it or not, that is a fact. Now these customers expect a level of service in order to perform their task - operate the aeroplane, just like you when going into a store expect a level of service, this is no different.
Basic functions should be to get to know your customers. Understand their needs, and quirks. By knowing what they expect you can anticipate their needs, and keep ahead of the game. They are individuals and as such will have varying levels of requirements. Admittedly some will be more demanding than others, but having identified this you can react accordingly. Once they realise that you are on top of the game it only gets easier.
You are there to ensure flights operate as per the company's commercial programme. Aircrew are tasked with exactly the same function. Just as the dispatcher has their job, passenger handling theirs, catering, cleaning etc etc, the prime objectives are all the same.
Company's can help by opening CRM to all front-line departments. Courses comprising of pilots, cabincrew, ground operations & engineers will give an insight into each others areas of problems and will lend to a better understanding of each other.
I have no doublt that this will not sit well with the die-hard them & us brigade. It is not pampering to the needs of 'pilots' it is doing the job you are paid for.
The negative responses that have been posted indicate that those people have not yet grasped the ops function.
As the nerve center of the airline, all departments look at ops for the answers, you have control of day to day ops. And just like in any other business in order to function efficiently there has to be a two-way flow of information.
As the Ops Dept don't forget you are also in the service industry and your major customers are the aircrew, like it or not, that is a fact. Now these customers expect a level of service in order to perform their task - operate the aeroplane, just like you when going into a store expect a level of service, this is no different.
Basic functions should be to get to know your customers. Understand their needs, and quirks. By knowing what they expect you can anticipate their needs, and keep ahead of the game. They are individuals and as such will have varying levels of requirements. Admittedly some will be more demanding than others, but having identified this you can react accordingly. Once they realise that you are on top of the game it only gets easier.
You are there to ensure flights operate as per the company's commercial programme. Aircrew are tasked with exactly the same function. Just as the dispatcher has their job, passenger handling theirs, catering, cleaning etc etc, the prime objectives are all the same.
Company's can help by opening CRM to all front-line departments. Courses comprising of pilots, cabincrew, ground operations & engineers will give an insight into each others areas of problems and will lend to a better understanding of each other.
I have no doublt that this will not sit well with the die-hard them & us brigade. It is not pampering to the needs of 'pilots' it is doing the job you are paid for.
Guest
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Lalapanzi.....
Doing the job we are paid for?? Absolutely right, but does that mean we have to sit back and take the constant flak for apparantley every problem that occurs within the airline?? I'm afraid that, if you have any kind of personality whatsoever, it will p**s you off, and you'll do your utmost to inform/educate those accusing you of exactly what problems you are facing - CONSTANTLY!
Is that so wrong or will that offend the delicate pilot 'customer' fraternity you so desperately want to belong to? Maybe that'll lead to the better understanding you mention....or not.
I enjoyed reading your comments about not having grasped the Ops function. I think we all know only too well what the Ops function has become, and it's certainly not what it used to be. Maybe it is pilots/cabin crew/airport staff in general that cannot fully appreciate the Operational decision making process, and have no appreciation of what being the nerve centre involves, and it is they who are in desperate need of education. The flow of information can be very difficult, especially when the party you are attempting to get your point to is not interested because 'it's only ops mucking the programme around again'. Again, who's fault is that?
Our customers are the flight crew? Have to disagree with your choice of words - shop steward is something I'll never be! - but I take your point. Indeed they are, but are we not working together, not for them? Lets not forget that for a start. For an annoyingly increasing majority, being on top of the game is not good enough for some these days.
Companies, as well as individual attitudes, can play a huge part in decreasing the divide that will always be there between Ops and flight crew. Dont get me wrong, I'm certainly not one of the infamous 'them and us' believers, but the divide is their and will always be. Appreciation and respect is a two way thing that, as has been proved on many threads including this one, is diminishing towards humble Ops people.
Doing the job we are paid for?? Absolutely right, but does that mean we have to sit back and take the constant flak for apparantley every problem that occurs within the airline?? I'm afraid that, if you have any kind of personality whatsoever, it will p**s you off, and you'll do your utmost to inform/educate those accusing you of exactly what problems you are facing - CONSTANTLY!
Is that so wrong or will that offend the delicate pilot 'customer' fraternity you so desperately want to belong to? Maybe that'll lead to the better understanding you mention....or not.
I enjoyed reading your comments about not having grasped the Ops function. I think we all know only too well what the Ops function has become, and it's certainly not what it used to be. Maybe it is pilots/cabin crew/airport staff in general that cannot fully appreciate the Operational decision making process, and have no appreciation of what being the nerve centre involves, and it is they who are in desperate need of education. The flow of information can be very difficult, especially when the party you are attempting to get your point to is not interested because 'it's only ops mucking the programme around again'. Again, who's fault is that?
Our customers are the flight crew? Have to disagree with your choice of words - shop steward is something I'll never be! - but I take your point. Indeed they are, but are we not working together, not for them? Lets not forget that for a start. For an annoyingly increasing majority, being on top of the game is not good enough for some these days.
Companies, as well as individual attitudes, can play a huge part in decreasing the divide that will always be there between Ops and flight crew. Dont get me wrong, I'm certainly not one of the infamous 'them and us' believers, but the divide is their and will always be. Appreciation and respect is a two way thing that, as has been proved on many threads including this one, is diminishing towards humble Ops people.
Guest
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Stirling - thanks for your comments, which on the whole I would not entirely disagree with. Educating the aircrew as to the actual function ops is there to perform is something that needs to be addressed right at the beginning with new intakes.
Do you not think that CRM to include all front-line staff is a way forward?
Do you also not think that a reason many of the pilots don't appreciate or understand ops is that they no longer have that one to one contact. As company's have grown, ops & crewing have become accessible via telephones or e-mail, the doors are kept closed.
Do you not think that CRM to include all front-line staff is a way forward?
Do you also not think that a reason many of the pilots don't appreciate or understand ops is that they no longer have that one to one contact. As company's have grown, ops & crewing have become accessible via telephones or e-mail, the doors are kept closed.
Guest
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Lala,
I agree the CRM course should be for anyone working as a team both ops and crew.
ref pilots not having one to one thats also true.
our company is small so there is that one to one, some crew are from the old school and do their own thing anyway.
Walla
I agree the CRM course should be for anyone working as a team both ops and crew.
ref pilots not having one to one thats also true.
our company is small so there is that one to one, some crew are from the old school and do their own thing anyway.
Walla
Guest
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Give a pilot a choice.....and he will want both options available to him at all times....make a company decision and it will always be the wrong one in the eyes of the flight deck!!
Pants!!
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Remember - wherever you may be.....there you are!
Pants!!
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Remember - wherever you may be.....there you are!
Guest
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Lala..agree with both yourself and Walla. CRM is an ideal way to address some problems from the outset, especially with new intakes. Some old school may still disagree with the way things are done, but at least they can appreciate the reasoning behind decisions taken. Should we stop at just flight crew education, or take it one step further to encompass other ground handling staff? Again, my opinion is that this can only lead to better working relationships.
Although the one to one comment rings true, personally I think this contact is essential for crewing, but not really a necessity for Ops. So long as an Ops department is proffessional on all fronts and approachable when required, the need for a constant stream of crews through the office can be an irritation, especially with the larger operators. It's certainly a fine line between discouraging crew contact and encouraging them to come to us with relevant requests. Where do you draw the line?
Guest
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Good point Stirling.
I would not imagine all pilots coming to ops desk asking for changings or different kind of needs. Standardization is what can save us all, since as we say in Italy: "some wants it rare, some wants it well done...". Of course we cannot provide customized briefings, according to whom is going to receive them (our rep in Mexico have a picture of each cpt, and according who's coming they assume different attitude
it's a joke, but not too far from reality...).It is indeed necessary that flying crews report what is wrong or what could be improved, but following the company's line of responsability. Then reports are discussed, and when a change is considered applicable, it is applied to the whole community.
Our pilots, when leaving from the homebase are briefed by dispatchers, but when leaving from outstations they just receive a stack of paper without meeting us. They normally operate the same, then I guess a physical meeting is not actually necessary.
Ciao
Paolo
"Flight Dispatchers tell pilots where to go"
Guest
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Stirling - when I mentioned front-line staff that includes Dispatchers, Passenger Handling, Baggage loaders, even the engineers 
The time has come for a better understanding of all roles and just where they fit into the equation. Come on lets invite the cleaners & caterers, their role is no less important.
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say it with icons!
The time has come for a better understanding of all roles and just where they fit into the equation. Come on lets invite the cleaners & caterers, their role is no less important.
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say it with icons!
Guest
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Its strange, am often commended for my comunications with handling agents, Engineering, and other agencies, but I have an "Attitude problem" with pilots. It seems to me there is a very small number (in my company at least) who need you to blow sunshine up their arse before they will do what they are paid for. These few then throw teddies all over the place if they dont get what they want and as soon as you say "Grow up" they run crying to the fleet office crying "he's been nasty to me". fortunately in my company these muppets account for about 10%, the rest are decent crews who seem to understand the workings of commercial aviation
Guest
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Imagine these scenarios. They are all real and happened to myself or my colleagues. It just goes to show that it really IS all Ops fault ALL of the time.
The week before Xmas a small airport closes because it has snowed and the airport doesn't have sufficient servisable equipment to clear it and when it does get cleared runs out of de icer for the ramp and it is so slippery that it is dodgy even to walk on. When it does open up again the shiny jets, of course, get preference. This, in the very unhumble opinnion of the CEO, is definately ops fault and we all get one of his special morale boosting talks, feely interspersed with the usual words like bunch of f***ing wa**kers, useless, why do we have an ops department, could do better myself etc etc.
When we do fly again, it seems there is no de icing fluid for aircraft to be had in all of Ireland. This is because no one expected it to snow (after all it was only MID winter) and there has been an unforseen demand for the stuff. Also the ferry that has the extra de-icer on board can't sail either cos the wx has been too bad. Quite naturally the boss isn't really best impressed as we should get some over on the ferry (which is not operating but that doesn't seem to matter and is probably something to do with ops being involved ) Obviously another Ops failing. Morale boosting talk full of words such as f***ing wa**kers, useless, why do we bother having an ops department, could do better myself etc etc. (These of course are the edited, printable highlights of his tirades as indeed are all of these precis!.)
One of the customers repeatedly turns up late with frt for the flights and as a result the flight runs late, as do all subsequent flights on that particular a/c. As this customer seems to run the airline and therefore gets exactly what it requires, boss and commercial will not approach them about getting their stuff here on time so the aircraft can operate on time. Of course the customer complains that the flight was late off and it's all bl**dy ops fault again because they are a bunch of f***ing w**kers etc etc etc., and I'm going to close ops down and do it myself.
Another customer holds a flight at an outstation for so long that the crew have to go into discretion to complete the last leg. They do this on a regular basis. Commercial are not interested despite being warned by ops that the crews are getting sick of it and will one day soon tell them where to stuff their last leg, find hotac and not be seen for several hours with consequent crewing and scheduling problems. Ops Controller dare not tell customer that he is having his aeropllane out of xyz NOW as the boss will go absolutely ape and he will get a morale boosting talk, (see above.) As a consequence, it runs very late, is ops fault anyway and ops get yet another good morale boosting talk from CEO. (you know the script now).
One Capt has a tech problem on his a/c which reduces his take off performance. He does not wish to take the aircraft on his planned route for valid FLIGHT SAFETY reasons. The controller on duty threatens to report him as being uncooperative as he obviously does not wish to have a morale improving chat from the boss in the morning. The boss finds out next day and the captain is, in his absence, tried, found guilty of being a f***ing w**ker etc etc etc and the controller in question gets a pat on the head from the boss as being a chip off the old block!! Of course, ops shouldn't have put this particular captain on this particular route as this fault had been around for some time and this captain has an aversion to flying unservisable aircraft (Can't see why!.) So, notwithstanding previous pat on head, ops are a bunch of etc etc etc.
Depite much crew sickness leaving barely enough crews to go around and despite aircraft going u/s on a regular basis with the same problems as yesterday, the day before etc.,(looked at it chief, no fault found//changed a box that should do it and other EASY fixes) meaning that there were sometimes three or four u/s aircraft a day, commercial still insisted on selling aircraft despite advice from ops and crewing. Don't get me wrong, I am as aware as the next person that it is flying that pays my wages and extra charters make a lot more money than regular contract flights which is why we always try every possible way to get them done, but when we already are struggling to crew the existing flying by calling in favours, asking crews to give up days off, leave etc etc and having to move a/c round to get servisable ones in the right place, sometimes commercial need to understand that it is time to stop saying "yes" we can do that. Despite being advised, commercial still sell and the commercial manager says "I have every confidence you can crew it" and when crewing/ops can't crew it the usual morale boosting talk ensues.
The boss has such a reputation within the ops department that no-one wants to initiate a call to him unless it is absolutely and unavoidably necessary. No one is actually frightened of him but there is no requirement to make a bad day even worse than it already is by having a conversation with him that usually ended with words to the effect that as ops seem incapable of sorting it out he would come and do it himself. One person has already left because of him and the rest of Ops are looking.
So, don't worry about aircrew giving Ops a bad time, this bloke makes them seem like amateurs!! After him it was sheer pleasure dealing with stroppy aircrew.
Keep up the good work
Doc C
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'An intellectual is someone who has been educated beyond common sense.'
The week before Xmas a small airport closes because it has snowed and the airport doesn't have sufficient servisable equipment to clear it and when it does get cleared runs out of de icer for the ramp and it is so slippery that it is dodgy even to walk on. When it does open up again the shiny jets, of course, get preference. This, in the very unhumble opinnion of the CEO, is definately ops fault and we all get one of his special morale boosting talks, feely interspersed with the usual words like bunch of f***ing wa**kers, useless, why do we have an ops department, could do better myself etc etc.
When we do fly again, it seems there is no de icing fluid for aircraft to be had in all of Ireland. This is because no one expected it to snow (after all it was only MID winter) and there has been an unforseen demand for the stuff. Also the ferry that has the extra de-icer on board can't sail either cos the wx has been too bad. Quite naturally the boss isn't really best impressed as we should get some over on the ferry (which is not operating but that doesn't seem to matter and is probably something to do with ops being involved ) Obviously another Ops failing. Morale boosting talk full of words such as f***ing wa**kers, useless, why do we bother having an ops department, could do better myself etc etc. (These of course are the edited, printable highlights of his tirades as indeed are all of these precis!.)
One of the customers repeatedly turns up late with frt for the flights and as a result the flight runs late, as do all subsequent flights on that particular a/c. As this customer seems to run the airline and therefore gets exactly what it requires, boss and commercial will not approach them about getting their stuff here on time so the aircraft can operate on time. Of course the customer complains that the flight was late off and it's all bl**dy ops fault again because they are a bunch of f***ing w**kers etc etc etc., and I'm going to close ops down and do it myself.
Another customer holds a flight at an outstation for so long that the crew have to go into discretion to complete the last leg. They do this on a regular basis. Commercial are not interested despite being warned by ops that the crews are getting sick of it and will one day soon tell them where to stuff their last leg, find hotac and not be seen for several hours with consequent crewing and scheduling problems. Ops Controller dare not tell customer that he is having his aeropllane out of xyz NOW as the boss will go absolutely ape and he will get a morale boosting talk, (see above.) As a consequence, it runs very late, is ops fault anyway and ops get yet another good morale boosting talk from CEO. (you know the script now).
One Capt has a tech problem on his a/c which reduces his take off performance. He does not wish to take the aircraft on his planned route for valid FLIGHT SAFETY reasons. The controller on duty threatens to report him as being uncooperative as he obviously does not wish to have a morale improving chat from the boss in the morning. The boss finds out next day and the captain is, in his absence, tried, found guilty of being a f***ing w**ker etc etc etc and the controller in question gets a pat on the head from the boss as being a chip off the old block!! Of course, ops shouldn't have put this particular captain on this particular route as this fault had been around for some time and this captain has an aversion to flying unservisable aircraft (Can't see why!.) So, notwithstanding previous pat on head, ops are a bunch of etc etc etc.
Depite much crew sickness leaving barely enough crews to go around and despite aircraft going u/s on a regular basis with the same problems as yesterday, the day before etc.,(looked at it chief, no fault found//changed a box that should do it and other EASY fixes) meaning that there were sometimes three or four u/s aircraft a day, commercial still insisted on selling aircraft despite advice from ops and crewing. Don't get me wrong, I am as aware as the next person that it is flying that pays my wages and extra charters make a lot more money than regular contract flights which is why we always try every possible way to get them done, but when we already are struggling to crew the existing flying by calling in favours, asking crews to give up days off, leave etc etc and having to move a/c round to get servisable ones in the right place, sometimes commercial need to understand that it is time to stop saying "yes" we can do that. Despite being advised, commercial still sell and the commercial manager says "I have every confidence you can crew it" and when crewing/ops can't crew it the usual morale boosting talk ensues.
The boss has such a reputation within the ops department that no-one wants to initiate a call to him unless it is absolutely and unavoidably necessary. No one is actually frightened of him but there is no requirement to make a bad day even worse than it already is by having a conversation with him that usually ended with words to the effect that as ops seem incapable of sorting it out he would come and do it himself. One person has already left because of him and the rest of Ops are looking.
So, don't worry about aircrew giving Ops a bad time, this bloke makes them seem like amateurs!! After him it was sheer pleasure dealing with stroppy aircrew.
Keep up the good work
Doc C
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'An intellectual is someone who has been educated beyond common sense.'