Revised and Improved Glasgow College Course (Merged)
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Revised and Improved Glasgow College Course
Hopefully those enrolled on the course will have received the first two binders of the revised course.
Ops Managers from a number of airlines have been working with the Glasgow College to provide a course more in keeping with our needs.
The college has also listened to the students and their feedback and intends the support mechanisms to be much stronger this time around.
As Kevin Maloney indicated in his letter their will be regular on site clinics, and the tutors are also now more contactable.
So, what do you think of the new format?
Ops Managers from a number of airlines have been working with the Glasgow College to provide a course more in keeping with our needs.
The college has also listened to the students and their feedback and intends the support mechanisms to be much stronger this time around.
As Kevin Maloney indicated in his letter their will be regular on site clinics, and the tutors are also now more contactable.
So, what do you think of the new format?
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Pleased to hear that OpsBod. Now that I'm away from it all, at least for the time being, I'd be interested to know if you've heard from the CAA or the JAA re the requirement to add ICAO FOO/Dispatcher level training to Part D of JAROPS1 airline manuals.
IEM OPS 1.205 Yellow Paper
Training of Flight Operations Officers
(See JAR-OPS 1.205)
If an operator employs Flight Operations Officers in conjunction with a method of Operational Control as defined in JAR OPS 1.195, training for these personnel should be based on relevant parts of ICAO Doc 7192 D3. This training should be described in sub Part D of the Operations Manual. This should not be taken as a requirement for Licensed Flight Dispatchers nor for a flight following system.
IEM OPS 1.205 Yellow Paper
Training of Flight Operations Officers
(See JAR-OPS 1.205)
If an operator employs Flight Operations Officers in conjunction with a method of Operational Control as defined in JAR OPS 1.195, training for these personnel should be based on relevant parts of ICAO Doc 7192 D3. This training should be described in sub Part D of the Operations Manual. This should not be taken as a requirement for Licensed Flight Dispatchers nor for a flight following system.
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JAA Operations Training Requirements
I understand that JAA are currently talking to a number of European Organisations with regards to the item in nosig's post. Those involved in the consultation include the training department at Airbus in TLS and IFALDA.
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JB
Nope. See your pm's.
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Revised and Improved Glasgow College Course?
Let's have a balance here, shall we?
Careful, chaps - especially if it's your own money.
Thoughts for the day (applies to any course) - Recognised? Approved? For how long? By whom?
And let’s not forget there are those of us who are still awaiting responses to questions asked of our tutors and Mr Maloney a year ago despite the "support mechanism."
Remember kids, wordy posts are not big and they’re not clever.
Careful, chaps - especially if it's your own money.
Thoughts for the day (applies to any course) - Recognised? Approved? For how long? By whom?
And let’s not forget there are those of us who are still awaiting responses to questions asked of our tutors and Mr Maloney a year ago despite the "support mechanism."
Remember kids, wordy posts are not big and they’re not clever.
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Mister Rainbow
Nothwithstanding the issues you may have with the College and Mr K. M, who else is working to support the training needs of UK operational personnel to what will be, one hopes, the European standard. There is nothing else to balance. It appears UKOMA is pulling this around, lets support their efforts. Although I am out of it now, the update from Opsbod is a positive move one would hope.
Sadly, we don't have anything that is 'yet' recognised or approved. Hence the importance of the CAA/JAA regarding the inclusion of ops training to ICAO standards in part D of your ops manual. That, I am afraid, is the closest we are going to get to recognised or approved there is no licence in this at least as far as I can see.
I know most airlines will not be able to meet the ICAO standards by themselves so we need a course such as Glasgow Nautical College are providing and it may be something that will, in the future, be tailored to meet individual airlines needs.
But, the single most important thing that will foster the future of UK ops personnel is a recognised standard of training. If you can go to an interview with a Certificate to that effect in your hand you will stand a better chance of employment.
We've been through all of this before, but lets not pour cold water on this important move in our part of the industry.
Nothwithstanding the issues you may have with the College and Mr K. M, who else is working to support the training needs of UK operational personnel to what will be, one hopes, the European standard. There is nothing else to balance. It appears UKOMA is pulling this around, lets support their efforts. Although I am out of it now, the update from Opsbod is a positive move one would hope.
Sadly, we don't have anything that is 'yet' recognised or approved. Hence the importance of the CAA/JAA regarding the inclusion of ops training to ICAO standards in part D of your ops manual. That, I am afraid, is the closest we are going to get to recognised or approved there is no licence in this at least as far as I can see.
I know most airlines will not be able to meet the ICAO standards by themselves so we need a course such as Glasgow Nautical College are providing and it may be something that will, in the future, be tailored to meet individual airlines needs.
But, the single most important thing that will foster the future of UK ops personnel is a recognised standard of training. If you can go to an interview with a Certificate to that effect in your hand you will stand a better chance of employment.
We've been through all of this before, but lets not pour cold water on this important move in our part of the industry.
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I signed up for this course on it's inception. To say that I was unimpressed by it's quality would be an understatement.
I recently spoke to the College for an update and was assured that the improved version would soon be on the streets. Additionally KM promised to contact me with an outline of the new prospectus..........nothing heard!
At the same time KM explained the options open to me and they are:
a. Plod on with the old books.
b. Start the course anew with new books.
c. A full refund.
As this 'qualification' is still not recognised and therefore is of dubious value, I am asking for a full refund. £1200 is a lot of money to me and the college has failed spectacularly to provide a quality product that I would demand for the price.
I shall instead be concentrating my efforts in the direction of Sheffield and it's FAA Flight dispatchers license.
I recently spoke to the College for an update and was assured that the improved version would soon be on the streets. Additionally KM promised to contact me with an outline of the new prospectus..........nothing heard!
At the same time KM explained the options open to me and they are:
a. Plod on with the old books.
b. Start the course anew with new books.
c. A full refund.
As this 'qualification' is still not recognised and therefore is of dubious value, I am asking for a full refund. £1200 is a lot of money to me and the college has failed spectacularly to provide a quality product that I would demand for the price.
I shall instead be concentrating my efforts in the direction of Sheffield and it's FAA Flight dispatchers license.
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srs what? and MilOps
I am led to believe the UKOMA group have spoken with the College with regard to these problems, I leave it for OpsBods or someone else from the UKOMA group to comment as I am now out of touch. I think you should email their Principle with your comments, find the address on their website.
But MilOps, the ICAO standard is not of dubious value and particularly, if it is adopted by the JAA as the European standard of training.
I am led to believe the UKOMA group have spoken with the College with regard to these problems, I leave it for OpsBods or someone else from the UKOMA group to comment as I am now out of touch. I think you should email their Principle with your comments, find the address on their website.
But MilOps, the ICAO standard is not of dubious value and particularly, if it is adopted by the JAA as the European standard of training.
Last edited by no sig; 27th Jan 2004 at 02:15.
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MilOps
IMHO I should stay well clear of the course and claim you money back until it has been adopted as an acceptable standard by both JAR OPS and the CAA.
Echo your thoughts Mr Rainbow "Recognised? Approved? For how long? By whom? "
I'm sure we've all read the previous posts on this subject and No Sig's efforts, along with Glasgow maybe should be applauded, however UNTIL an acceptable standard for this course has been recognised there is no way forward on this issue. If I hear one more comment about Doc 7192 and Part D of the Ops manual I shall cry
MilOps and SRS's comments regarding communication are the most worrying considering the flack Glasgow attracted the first time round. Emails to the Principle, when you have forked out £1200 No Sig, is not the answer.
For £1200 I would, should and did expect positive and prompt replies from the College and these as indicated the first time round on this forum, were and still are by the sound of things, sadly lacking.
I shall continue to sit back and wait for a CAA/JAR approved course.
In my lifetime ? Maybe not
Best regards
FG
IMHO I should stay well clear of the course and claim you money back until it has been adopted as an acceptable standard by both JAR OPS and the CAA.
Echo your thoughts Mr Rainbow "Recognised? Approved? For how long? By whom? "
I'm sure we've all read the previous posts on this subject and No Sig's efforts, along with Glasgow maybe should be applauded, however UNTIL an acceptable standard for this course has been recognised there is no way forward on this issue. If I hear one more comment about Doc 7192 and Part D of the Ops manual I shall cry
MilOps and SRS's comments regarding communication are the most worrying considering the flack Glasgow attracted the first time round. Emails to the Principle, when you have forked out £1200 No Sig, is not the answer.
For £1200 I would, should and did expect positive and prompt replies from the College and these as indicated the first time round on this forum, were and still are by the sound of things, sadly lacking.
I shall continue to sit back and wait for a CAA/JAR approved course.
In my lifetime ? Maybe not
Best regards
FG
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No Sig
I am not questioning the ICAO standard (sorry FG) and would welcome any course which not only met it, but had actually been approved by ICAO.
That is my whole point. Fact. First time around, the Glasgow course did fall far, far short, both in terms of relevance and quality of content therein. The support given to me by the college was nil and I have received nothing from the college since to change my opinion.
Therefore I too will await a course that is approved by ICAO, not one that merely claims to be produced to it's standard with unsubstantiated promises that it will all be ok this time around.
I am not questioning the ICAO standard (sorry FG) and would welcome any course which not only met it, but had actually been approved by ICAO.
That is my whole point. Fact. First time around, the Glasgow course did fall far, far short, both in terms of relevance and quality of content therein. The support given to me by the college was nil and I have received nothing from the college since to change my opinion.
Therefore I too will await a course that is approved by ICAO, not one that merely claims to be produced to it's standard with unsubstantiated promises that it will all be ok this time around.
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Mister Rainbow, I agree that it does appear that the college have not met your requirements the first time round. I and a number of other Ops Managers have tried to steer the college in the right direction and hope we have made considerable progress. UKOMA aims to “provide a means by which the airline operations community can continually improve and evolve” and a number of members feel that at present we will all gain if this course is successful.
There will certainly be a monthly clinic at TangoLand and if this is a more convenient place to meet Kevin and received the support you need then pm me and I will be happy to assist. This offer is not just open to Mister Rainbow, but any student of the course.
If you chose to get your money back and leave the course, this again is your choice; no-one is holding a gun to your head yet.
However, please bear in mind ICAO will not approve this course or any other as meeting any ICAO standards. The FAA dispatch licence course at Sheffield and elsewhere is not and cannot be approved by ICAO since ICAO is not the regulating body, in the US the FAA is, in the UK the CAA is the responsible body. Other European countries are already introducing ICAO 7192 as their training standard and have approved some training orgainisations to deliver such courses, Sweden & France to name a couple.
I know that the college have been speaking to the CAA and will be approaching them in the future for further recognition of the course. Please also remember that the college and its course work are already approved for CAA and JAR pilot training, to my knowledge this is more than any other organisation in the UK currently offering Ops training has.
There will certainly be a monthly clinic at TangoLand and if this is a more convenient place to meet Kevin and received the support you need then pm me and I will be happy to assist. This offer is not just open to Mister Rainbow, but any student of the course.
If you chose to get your money back and leave the course, this again is your choice; no-one is holding a gun to your head yet.
However, please bear in mind ICAO will not approve this course or any other as meeting any ICAO standards. The FAA dispatch licence course at Sheffield and elsewhere is not and cannot be approved by ICAO since ICAO is not the regulating body, in the US the FAA is, in the UK the CAA is the responsible body. Other European countries are already introducing ICAO 7192 as their training standard and have approved some training orgainisations to deliver such courses, Sweden & France to name a couple.
I know that the college have been speaking to the CAA and will be approaching them in the future for further recognition of the course. Please also remember that the college and its course work are already approved for CAA and JAR pilot training, to my knowledge this is more than any other organisation in the UK currently offering Ops training has.
Last edited by opsbod; 27th Jan 2004 at 04:50.
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(sorry OpsBod our posts have crossed in the post/ no sig)
FG
I wouldn't wish to reduce you to tears, but I'm working on the principle that there is a wider audience of our colleagues out there who might not have followed our chats of the past, and I will confess, I think it important to keep this subject alive for the many reasons I've explained in the past.
The issues with the College need resolved by the individuals concerned as I've said many times, and as you'll know from an industry perspective, UKOMA are working with them overall.
Mr Rainbow and FG, ICAO set the basic requirement for the international standard (D7192), they audit the states to see that the ICAO standards are met, it was during such an audit of the UK that the lack of Ops Officer training issue came to light. ICAO will not approve the Glasgow or any other course, whether they would notify it in their materials as a course meeting the ICAO standards is, however, another issue as they already do with other courses.
But, the bottom line in all this is to work towards a UK/JAA standard (ICAO) of training for ops that airlines will recognise. In that event a certificate from a training organisation gives you a 'de facto' Flight Ops Officer licence ( as close as you'll get), and that's something future ops officers can use to demonstrate their competence. It will also raise standards, as I believe, in general, they need to be.
FG
I wouldn't wish to reduce you to tears, but I'm working on the principle that there is a wider audience of our colleagues out there who might not have followed our chats of the past, and I will confess, I think it important to keep this subject alive for the many reasons I've explained in the past.
The issues with the College need resolved by the individuals concerned as I've said many times, and as you'll know from an industry perspective, UKOMA are working with them overall.
Mr Rainbow and FG, ICAO set the basic requirement for the international standard (D7192), they audit the states to see that the ICAO standards are met, it was during such an audit of the UK that the lack of Ops Officer training issue came to light. ICAO will not approve the Glasgow or any other course, whether they would notify it in their materials as a course meeting the ICAO standards is, however, another issue as they already do with other courses.
But, the bottom line in all this is to work towards a UK/JAA standard (ICAO) of training for ops that airlines will recognise. In that event a certificate from a training organisation gives you a 'de facto' Flight Ops Officer licence ( as close as you'll get), and that's something future ops officers can use to demonstrate their competence. It will also raise standards, as I believe, in general, they need to be.
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No Sig
I'm not disputing the requirement for training, I never have done.
What I have objected to all along is being charged £1200 for a sub standard course that has not been approved (or even spell checked and proof read) by anyone.
To shell out £1200 may be a drop in the ocean to some, but I suspect not for others. People subscribing to this course need to know at the end of the day that it is going to count for something and be recognised by potential employers.
So good luck to UKOMA AND to Glasgow in their approaches to the CAA for this to be " the standard" course for Ops Bods, I just hope it evolves from its initial form into something more workable and dare I say it "relevant".
What you up to these days No Sig, no longer "orange" I assume ?
Regards
FG
I'm not disputing the requirement for training, I never have done.
What I have objected to all along is being charged £1200 for a sub standard course that has not been approved (or even spell checked and proof read) by anyone.
To shell out £1200 may be a drop in the ocean to some, but I suspect not for others. People subscribing to this course need to know at the end of the day that it is going to count for something and be recognised by potential employers.
So good luck to UKOMA AND to Glasgow in their approaches to the CAA for this to be " the standard" course for Ops Bods, I just hope it evolves from its initial form into something more workable and dare I say it "relevant".
What you up to these days No Sig, no longer "orange" I assume ?
Regards
FG
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Glasgow have a long way to go to regain some credibilty.
Having seen the course work, I came to the conclusion that the books were just Modules 1 and 2 from the ATPL course placed into a binder with "ICAO Operations Officer Training" on the front!!!!!!!
And 1200 quid is not petty cash to anyone......
Is the course going to be more relevant now ???? When I have 20 aircraft infront of me all requiring re-routes/RFI's/engineers etc etc....the colour of an Off-route Waypoint on a Primary Navigation Screen is really useful!!!!!!!
Having seen the course work, I came to the conclusion that the books were just Modules 1 and 2 from the ATPL course placed into a binder with "ICAO Operations Officer Training" on the front!!!!!!!
And 1200 quid is not petty cash to anyone......
Is the course going to be more relevant now ???? When I have 20 aircraft infront of me all requiring re-routes/RFI's/engineers etc etc....the colour of an Off-route Waypoint on a Primary Navigation Screen is really useful!!!!!!!
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Ikkle
The level of study required for the ICAO FOO licence is not far removed from the ATPL. The College has used existing pilot study materials and tailored them, with airline and UKOMA help - that relationship continues. That was the only way we were going to get a course up and running, Glasgow was the only organisation I could find who would take this on. As an existing JAR CPL/ATPL training school they had a head start which made this course affordable. The development of a course from scratch, if you could find someone to do it, would have cost more than double.
Bear in mind the commercial return vs the number of likely students is low. Despite the teething problems at the start of the course, credit where credit is due, at least the Glasgow College of Nautical Studies took this task on and from what OpsBod tells me stand behind their committment to get the course right. They are a further education college with a long tradition in nautical studies and have on board many of the ex-British Aerospace Flying College PIK trainers.
You need to go back and read my previous posts regarding the basis of the course as I don't want to reopen a debate we've already had on these fora. But, I will say, this course isn't about 'your' job, its about giving a broad range of knowledge that enables you to work in airline ops in any environment so that you have complete appreciation of what is happening in flight, and in that context it is indeed important that you know cockpit instrumentation.
For interest Senior Dispatcher posted this link to the EUFALDA and german Dispatcher training.
http://www.flugdienstberater.org/Assembly03.htm
FG, after 33 years in Ops I've bowed out, gracefully I hope, to do consultancy and some more sailing!
The level of study required for the ICAO FOO licence is not far removed from the ATPL. The College has used existing pilot study materials and tailored them, with airline and UKOMA help - that relationship continues. That was the only way we were going to get a course up and running, Glasgow was the only organisation I could find who would take this on. As an existing JAR CPL/ATPL training school they had a head start which made this course affordable. The development of a course from scratch, if you could find someone to do it, would have cost more than double.
Bear in mind the commercial return vs the number of likely students is low. Despite the teething problems at the start of the course, credit where credit is due, at least the Glasgow College of Nautical Studies took this task on and from what OpsBod tells me stand behind their committment to get the course right. They are a further education college with a long tradition in nautical studies and have on board many of the ex-British Aerospace Flying College PIK trainers.
You need to go back and read my previous posts regarding the basis of the course as I don't want to reopen a debate we've already had on these fora. But, I will say, this course isn't about 'your' job, its about giving a broad range of knowledge that enables you to work in airline ops in any environment so that you have complete appreciation of what is happening in flight, and in that context it is indeed important that you know cockpit instrumentation.
For interest Senior Dispatcher posted this link to the EUFALDA and german Dispatcher training.
http://www.flugdienstberater.org/Assembly03.htm
FG, after 33 years in Ops I've bowed out, gracefully I hope, to do consultancy and some more sailing!
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New notes
They are a bit shorter than the first lot and they seem to be a bit more ops orientated.
I also got a login number for a thing called Blackboard which is the colleges discussion board. Theres a page just for this course. As far as I'm led to believe one of their instructors is going to keep an eye on it to answer any questions we've got about the course.
I also got a login number for a thing called Blackboard which is the colleges discussion board. Theres a page just for this course. As far as I'm led to believe one of their instructors is going to keep an eye on it to answer any questions we've got about the course.