Air NZ set to fly Australian routes
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UNBELIEVABLE!
All this whining, moaning, bitching coming from the Big Red Nothing.
You guys are worse than the poms!
And conveniently denying what has happened in the past (as mentioned the infamous "last minute fax" for instance) doesn't really make it more convincing.
Must be an aussie thing, because I can't recall having read anything on Pprune as bad from ex-Swissair pilots for instance who lost their jobs by the hundreds, or ex-Sabena staff bashing Swissair and the Swiss.
But if it makes you feel better...
All this whining, moaning, bitching coming from the Big Red Nothing.
You guys are worse than the poms!
And conveniently denying what has happened in the past (as mentioned the infamous "last minute fax" for instance) doesn't really make it more convincing.
Must be an aussie thing, because I can't recall having read anything on Pprune as bad from ex-Swissair pilots for instance who lost their jobs by the hundreds, or ex-Sabena staff bashing Swissair and the Swiss.
But if it makes you feel better...
to all you former ansett guys who are all bitter and twisted about the prospect of anz entering our domestic market, you should perhaps realise that ansett's demise was largely caused through it's own fault anyway, the problems started long before anz came on the scene, through some very ordinary management and commercial decisions.
clearly, i don't think anz would give a rat's arse whether you fly with them or not, as their future is pretty much guaranteed, they now run an efficient, profitable business and they will never go down the path that ansett did - ie operating every aircraft type ever made whilst paying their staff exorbitant amounts of pay for ordinary performances.
GET OVER IT boys!!!!
clearly, i don't think anz would give a rat's arse whether you fly with them or not, as their future is pretty much guaranteed, they now run an efficient, profitable business and they will never go down the path that ansett did - ie operating every aircraft type ever made whilst paying their staff exorbitant amounts of pay for ordinary performances.
GET OVER IT boys!!!!
Topend-Why don`t you lie back down on Bagot Rd?
AIRNZ a profitable airline,it was given a pretty exorbitant government handout.
AIRNZ managerial ineptitude was something many AN people were exposed to on a daily basis,sure I`m over it,but I do take umbridge to AirNZ washing their hands of blame.
Exhorbitant wages,in some cases,but on a whole not too much different to QF.
I detect bitterness in your wage reference,why?Who do you fly for?
AIRNZ a profitable airline,it was given a pretty exorbitant government handout.
AIRNZ managerial ineptitude was something many AN people were exposed to on a daily basis,sure I`m over it,but I do take umbridge to AirNZ washing their hands of blame.
Exhorbitant wages,in some cases,but on a whole not too much different to QF.
I detect bitterness in your wage reference,why?Who do you fly for?
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 10th Aug 2002 at 05:33.
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Woops, how could I forget that aussies are perfect and have never engaged in any underhanded tactics or backroom manouvering.
A lot of people on both sides need to get a serious grip on realtiy, take a step backwards and look at the whole Ansett Air NZ saga from an objective perspective.
A lot of people on both sides need to get a serious grip on realtiy, take a step backwards and look at the whole Ansett Air NZ saga from an objective perspective.
gnagburger - an would have well used to mangerial ineptitude long before the koru came onto the scene - that started back with sir peter abeles - know who he was????
ha ha - well it still makes for a good debate doesn't it????
no wage bitterness here by the way!!!
ha ha - well it still makes for a good debate doesn't it????
no wage bitterness here by the way!!!
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skystar1, I am truly sorry about your career, as are a hell of a lot of other Kiwis (and no - I'm not being facetious) But there are a few facts that you and many others should acknowledge.
Yes, AN may have been a great place to work and I'm not denying that the staff did a brilliant job, however...it was business basket case. The previous owners had run it down into the ground. For example just look at all the maintenance problems with a widely varied fleet of elderly aircraft. Remember it wasn't our CAA that grounded the 767s at Easter (how convenient for another Australian company) Another harsh fact is that it was not productive. In relation to other businesses, simply put there were too many staff. Sure, they may all have been wonderful dedicated people, but the wage bill was too high when compared to the revenue.
And no, I'm not saying Air New Zealand were blameless either, they should never have bought into AN, but were forced to do so thanks to the Aussie government doing whatever QF told it, ie the last-minute cancelling of the open-skies agreement. As Air NZ staff, we had all learnt the hard way that our management were a bunch of incompetents way out of their depth. All they could do was cut costs, strip out the profits and generally screw the staff. We thought that SQ should have bought the remaining 50% of Ansett, it was just that small-town meglomaniac Cushing on a power trip that thought otherwise. Even the respected Big Gazza, the golden boy from Qanta couldn't fix the mess.
There are over 9000 Air NZ staff members who didn't want AN to go under, and we sure didn't wish that terrible trauma to occur to any staff, Aussies, Kiwis, or whatever. We came very close ourselves but luckily for us we got bailed out, something your government wouldn't do for you.
We can't even begin to imagine the terrible times that have occured, no job, mortgages to pay, families to care for. As I said, we did'nt wish this on anyone, yet continual anti-New Zealand vitriol begins to engender less and less sympathy.
You want to blame someone, great go ahead, but remember it wasn't me, nor any of the other rank & file at Air NZ that destroyed AN. It was the dickheads at the top, from BOTH sides of the ditch.
Yes, AN may have been a great place to work and I'm not denying that the staff did a brilliant job, however...it was business basket case. The previous owners had run it down into the ground. For example just look at all the maintenance problems with a widely varied fleet of elderly aircraft. Remember it wasn't our CAA that grounded the 767s at Easter (how convenient for another Australian company) Another harsh fact is that it was not productive. In relation to other businesses, simply put there were too many staff. Sure, they may all have been wonderful dedicated people, but the wage bill was too high when compared to the revenue.
And no, I'm not saying Air New Zealand were blameless either, they should never have bought into AN, but were forced to do so thanks to the Aussie government doing whatever QF told it, ie the last-minute cancelling of the open-skies agreement. As Air NZ staff, we had all learnt the hard way that our management were a bunch of incompetents way out of their depth. All they could do was cut costs, strip out the profits and generally screw the staff. We thought that SQ should have bought the remaining 50% of Ansett, it was just that small-town meglomaniac Cushing on a power trip that thought otherwise. Even the respected Big Gazza, the golden boy from Qanta couldn't fix the mess.
There are over 9000 Air NZ staff members who didn't want AN to go under, and we sure didn't wish that terrible trauma to occur to any staff, Aussies, Kiwis, or whatever. We came very close ourselves but luckily for us we got bailed out, something your government wouldn't do for you.
We can't even begin to imagine the terrible times that have occured, no job, mortgages to pay, families to care for. As I said, we did'nt wish this on anyone, yet continual anti-New Zealand vitriol begins to engender less and less sympathy.
You want to blame someone, great go ahead, but remember it wasn't me, nor any of the other rank & file at Air NZ that destroyed AN. It was the dickheads at the top, from BOTH sides of the ditch.
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Listen to some of you sad tossers ... you try to make it sound like Air NZ management went in there with this huge grand evil plan right from the start to shaft the pilots and leave you all high and dry. Even if that was the case, which it isn't, then it would have been Aussie airline managements that wrote the goddam book on how to do it ... or have you all developed selective memories all of a sudden?
Air NZ management is not without its share of the blame, but it's a shining example of glowing ethics and corporate responsibility compared to what you Aussies managed to do to yourselves only a few years ago.
Air NZ management is not without its share of the blame, but it's a shining example of glowing ethics and corporate responsibility compared to what you Aussies managed to do to yourselves only a few years ago.
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Thanks Koru
I really do appreciate your kind words and understanding. Good post. I just get extremely pissed when others who have never been in this position say "GET OVER IT". It's simply not that easy when you've had your guts torn out and your heart is still bleeding. AN people were very proud and a different breed compared with the opposition. It will no doubt take a great deal of time for these wounds to heal. I know "that's life". The sheer arrogance and quick dismissals of certain individuals (primarily QF ) does nothing to ease the pain that thousands of Australians (ex-AN) are still feeling. Their CEO had both governments feeding from his hand. His every wish was their command. Even though over 30 000 ozzie jobs were at risk it was like water of a ducks back for little Johnny and his sidekick. What a hide he had (JA) to show his face at the AN book launch. Anyway its all history now.
Time is of great essence here. The wounds will close but the deep scars will remain.
Once again Thanks Koru. I only wish that others were as compassionate as you.
I really do appreciate your kind words and understanding. Good post. I just get extremely pissed when others who have never been in this position say "GET OVER IT". It's simply not that easy when you've had your guts torn out and your heart is still bleeding. AN people were very proud and a different breed compared with the opposition. It will no doubt take a great deal of time for these wounds to heal. I know "that's life". The sheer arrogance and quick dismissals of certain individuals (primarily QF ) does nothing to ease the pain that thousands of Australians (ex-AN) are still feeling. Their CEO had both governments feeding from his hand. His every wish was their command. Even though over 30 000 ozzie jobs were at risk it was like water of a ducks back for little Johnny and his sidekick. What a hide he had (JA) to show his face at the AN book launch. Anyway its all history now.
Time is of great essence here. The wounds will close but the deep scars will remain.
Once again Thanks Koru. I only wish that others were as compassionate as you.
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To all you ANZers who claim AN was a basket case before ANZ bought it I would like to know who was it holding the gun at ANZ's head to take the remaining 50% if it was so bad. Why did they stop every attempt SQ tried to buy in. I guess they were just plain STUPID, or greedy. As for ANZ being a profitable airline, well $800 million from the NZ government shows just how profitable it was, is. Come on out here boys, as someone else said it will sure make QF shares soar. At least we will get some cash back in OZ for landing and terminal charges while you fly your near empty aircraft around the country.
And yes KORU thanks for your post, what you say is all so true, a great post.
And yes KORU thanks for your post, what you say is all so true, a great post.
Last edited by Pole Vaulter; 10th Aug 2002 at 09:35.
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My level of morality is high.
I see no need for pretense or manipulation when dealing with others.
I stand by my principles.
It will still be a cold day in hell before I work for an organisation that has a total lack of conscious where it's corporate responsibilties are concerned.
I will never work for ANZ.
I see no need for pretense or manipulation when dealing with others.
I stand by my principles.
It will still be a cold day in hell before I work for an organisation that has a total lack of conscious where it's corporate responsibilties are concerned.
I will never work for ANZ.
Evertonian
Now there's the pot calling the kettle black!
Listen up all you ex AN people! Kaptin M is telling us to get over it!!! (ROFL) Man, you had your 15 minutes back in the dark ages. You've spent all this time carrying a grudge and now some others are starting to carry one, you get all jealous & over protective of your special state of mind.
Please, no more broad statements with little thought behind them. MY vitriol has ALWAYS been at the decision makers, not the troops & I resent that you imply that I wish them any ill. My contributions to this thread were against John Anderson & the fact that I wouldn't take my ablutions to them if needed! BFD!
For the record I will not, now or ever, apply for a position with Air New Zealand. I'm happy where I am thank you very much.
Topend3...hot up there huh? Thanks for the history lesson, I'm sure someone in Borneo didn't know about AN's shape prior to ANZ. I agree that a huge mixed fleet is not necessarily a good thing, and neither is high wages, but, do me a favour. Just go & check the QF website & see how many types they operate now & in the not too distant future. And, don't bother looking up their wage bill, it's only now starting to come down after being higher than AN's! Then, go to the annual report & see how much profit they made.
Also, see if you can find out how much the NZ govt. has had to pump into ANZ since they bought it out.
Some people like to see others suffer as a consequence of their pain. Kaptin M appears like one of them, but I don't know him & can only try to understand him behind his words. I personally don't like what's been done to AN, and my protest is that I will not travel ANZ, I rarely read "News Corp" material and I have no need of TNT's services anyway. I don't think I would feel happy if ANZ fell over, far from it, I just won't support them.
Please, no more broad statements with little thought behind them. MY vitriol has ALWAYS been at the decision makers, not the troops & I resent that you imply that I wish them any ill. My contributions to this thread were against John Anderson & the fact that I wouldn't take my ablutions to them if needed! BFD!
For the record I will not, now or ever, apply for a position with Air New Zealand. I'm happy where I am thank you very much.
Topend3...hot up there huh? Thanks for the history lesson, I'm sure someone in Borneo didn't know about AN's shape prior to ANZ. I agree that a huge mixed fleet is not necessarily a good thing, and neither is high wages, but, do me a favour. Just go & check the QF website & see how many types they operate now & in the not too distant future. And, don't bother looking up their wage bill, it's only now starting to come down after being higher than AN's! Then, go to the annual report & see how much profit they made.
Also, see if you can find out how much the NZ govt. has had to pump into ANZ since they bought it out.
Some people like to see others suffer as a consequence of their pain. Kaptin M appears like one of them, but I don't know him & can only try to understand him behind his words. I personally don't like what's been done to AN, and my protest is that I will not travel ANZ, I rarely read "News Corp" material and I have no need of TNT's services anyway. I don't think I would feel happy if ANZ fell over, far from it, I just won't support them.
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Cabin Secure
"My level of morality is high.
I see no need for pretense or manipulation when dealing with others.
I stand by my principles.
It will still be a cold day in hell before I work for an organisation that has a total lack of conscious where it's corporate responsibilties are concerned.
I will never work for ANZ."
[B]Enjoy working outside of aviaiton
"My level of morality is high.
I see no need for pretense or manipulation when dealing with others.
I stand by my principles.
It will still be a cold day in hell before I work for an organisation that has a total lack of conscious where it's corporate responsibilties are concerned.
I will never work for ANZ."
[B]Enjoy working outside of aviaiton
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atiuta, yes I do but that doesn't necessarily mean I like the fact.
and Pole Vaulter, the Air NZ managers responsible for buying AN weren't stupid or greedy. They were stupid AND greedy.
and Pole Vaulter, the Air NZ managers responsible for buying AN weren't stupid or greedy. They were stupid AND greedy.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Buster, NOWHERE have I said "Get over it", in those words - that was a well-worn cliche used by the scabs...sorry, replacement workers.
And just as you express your distaste of those whom YOU think contributed to Ansett's demise, I elect to choose the same option wrt the people who actively intervened to shaft us, and ultimately YOU!
If you were employed by Ansett during that turbulent period between 1989-1990, you would have to have been blind and deaf if you were unaware of the PRINCIPLE of that dispute.
If you were't aware of the pamphlets being distributed titled "WHO WILL BE NEXT?" outlining some of the plans Abeles had lined up to shaft Ansett workers, then you must have had your head in some dark hole!
The FACT was Abeles & Murdoch were gutting Ansett, and attempting to (and finally succeeded in) remove a "watchdog" - the pilots' Federation - that was attempting to keep some of their malpractices in check.
But the media (Murdoch controlled) played it as "greedy pilots trying to break the Accord".
And ironically a book was released more or less promoting the same line.
The rot set in, in a big way, when Abeles & Murdoch got their talons into it (in 1978).
I flew once on Ansett, post 1989, and boarding that aircraft was not a pleasant experience for me - I hated the name Ansett, because of what the company had done to my career.
But once onboard, I saw several familiar faces of some Brisbane-based F/A's, and naturally I spoke with them during the flight.
It was at that time that I realised that as much as I despised the Ansett name, my feelings were not the same for many of my past work colleagues who relied upon that company to provide them with an income.
And just as you express your distaste of those whom YOU think contributed to Ansett's demise, I elect to choose the same option wrt the people who actively intervened to shaft us, and ultimately YOU!
If you were employed by Ansett during that turbulent period between 1989-1990, you would have to have been blind and deaf if you were unaware of the PRINCIPLE of that dispute.
If you were't aware of the pamphlets being distributed titled "WHO WILL BE NEXT?" outlining some of the plans Abeles had lined up to shaft Ansett workers, then you must have had your head in some dark hole!
The FACT was Abeles & Murdoch were gutting Ansett, and attempting to (and finally succeeded in) remove a "watchdog" - the pilots' Federation - that was attempting to keep some of their malpractices in check.
But the media (Murdoch controlled) played it as "greedy pilots trying to break the Accord".
And ironically a book was released more or less promoting the same line.
The rot set in, in a big way, when Abeles & Murdoch got their talons into it (in 1978).
I flew once on Ansett, post 1989, and boarding that aircraft was not a pleasant experience for me - I hated the name Ansett, because of what the company had done to my career.
But once onboard, I saw several familiar faces of some Brisbane-based F/A's, and naturally I spoke with them during the flight.
It was at that time that I realised that as much as I despised the Ansett name, my feelings were not the same for many of my past work colleagues who relied upon that company to provide them with an income.
Evertonian
Silly me, of course you wouldn't say get over it! You'd need to understand what it means first!
Believe me, I was there in 89, tidying up the mess that was created by certain individuals. As for the propaganda sheets, I may have thrown a few in the bin at the time, far too busy to read such things. Perhaps you could remind us of the predictions that Nostra...sorry, the AFAP got spot on?
From my memory, there was always an us & them belief between pilots & everyone else working in aviation. Perhaps the support would've been there for you, if there was some reciprocal support for the clerks in the late 70's. But, alas, the opportunity passed & going it alone you fell on your swords. As for the AFAP being watchdogs for all of us, please, I'm getting all misty!
I've always supported your beliefs about Abeles & Hawke et al, it was revenge for not supporting accord. I'm willing to accept that we, the clerks, were perhaps not fully aware of the facts. But I can't see the same Greek tragedy that you do in your "cause".
However, I have always targeted those few at the top of ANZ & AN management for my "vitriol". The difference being that those I have "targeted" can easily find work in the same field if they so desire, how are the people that you target going for work?
Believe me, I was there in 89, tidying up the mess that was created by certain individuals. As for the propaganda sheets, I may have thrown a few in the bin at the time, far too busy to read such things. Perhaps you could remind us of the predictions that Nostra...sorry, the AFAP got spot on?
From my memory, there was always an us & them belief between pilots & everyone else working in aviation. Perhaps the support would've been there for you, if there was some reciprocal support for the clerks in the late 70's. But, alas, the opportunity passed & going it alone you fell on your swords. As for the AFAP being watchdogs for all of us, please, I'm getting all misty!
I've always supported your beliefs about Abeles & Hawke et al, it was revenge for not supporting accord. I'm willing to accept that we, the clerks, were perhaps not fully aware of the facts. But I can't see the same Greek tragedy that you do in your "cause".
However, I have always targeted those few at the top of ANZ & AN management for my "vitriol". The difference being that those I have "targeted" can easily find work in the same field if they so desire, how are the people that you target going for work?
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Skystar1, there are a lot of people who have been or are still in your position. When I said get over it, no disrespect was intended. Airlines go to the wall all the time and I imagine about half of the pilots out there, myself included, have turned up to work to find there isn't any any more. So plenty know how you feel. How often do you read of someone who has lost their job at age 50 having joined the company as an office boy at age 15? It happens in all industries.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
" As for the propaganda sheets, I may have thrown a few in the bin at the time,"...................together with the eventual future of Ansett and YOUR employment with them.
"From my memory, there was always an us & them belief between pilots & everyone else working in aviation."
Really? I was never aware that ANY of the Ansett pilots (employed up until 1989) felt that way. I always felt there was a good working/social relationship between the ground employees and the flight crew, as was evident by the number of non-flighties that used to come to social events eg. the cricket, New year`s Eve parties, etc.
That statement actually surprises me, Buster!
Anyway that is ALL in the past - along with Ansett.
For past Ansett employees to believe that by their not flying with Air New Zealand is going to hurt those at the top, before wreaking a LOT more damage on the base employees is blind hatred over-riding rational thinking.
Move on, but don`t forget that as with many company failures these days, the reason is personal greed at a corporate level, committed by a FEW people who have complete disregard for the "you`s and the me`s".
"From my memory, there was always an us & them belief between pilots & everyone else working in aviation."
Really? I was never aware that ANY of the Ansett pilots (employed up until 1989) felt that way. I always felt there was a good working/social relationship between the ground employees and the flight crew, as was evident by the number of non-flighties that used to come to social events eg. the cricket, New year`s Eve parties, etc.
That statement actually surprises me, Buster!
Anyway that is ALL in the past - along with Ansett.
For past Ansett employees to believe that by their not flying with Air New Zealand is going to hurt those at the top, before wreaking a LOT more damage on the base employees is blind hatred over-riding rational thinking.
Move on, but don`t forget that as with many company failures these days, the reason is personal greed at a corporate level, committed by a FEW people who have complete disregard for the "you`s and the me`s".