Ansett at midnight and the '89ers

[Woomera]

Fellow PPRuNers.. .. .In about 3 or 4 hours time a once famous and world-class airline ANSETT will be no more.. .. .None of you need me to again rake over the coals or stir up the dying embers; there will be much debate in other places and probably the odd hundred or so Masters and PhD theses written on the subject and the reasons for this and that.. .. .There are few if any issues, personal views, deep personal tragedies, lessons or forms of angst that have not been aired here since PPRuNe provided access to the first nationally available forum for all participants to the dispute.. .. .It is sometimes hard to believe that PPRuNe D & G was not started for this very purpose. . .It was not, but it became so as it was the first internationally available and open platform for all of the participants in the events of 1989, a seminal watershed in the development of the Australian airline environment, to get it off their chests if they chose and maybe help towards an understanding of each other and opposing views again if they chose so to do.. .. .I can assure you that the moderating load has been very very heavy and very difficult to maintain a balance, there have been a few moderator casualties along the way, including the odd attempt at legal biffery. . .It would have been very simple for Danny to just leave it closed permanently after any of the shutdowns generally brought on by an ‘89 subject.. .But, in recognition of its historical significance and having regard for the importance of balance we were (2 stalwarts of the Kelly gang in particular, neither of whom had anything to do with 89) successful in our pleadings to keep it going for EVERYONE.. .. .I am not tempted to emulate King Solomon and make a judgment on the rights and wrongs or position of either side, other than to ponder on his response to the two mothers disputing “ownership” of a child asking him to make a judgment on which of them should “win”. . .. .There are no winners; every one of us is a loser in some form or another at this point in time in regard to ANSETT, either then, during or now at its imminent death.. .. .All that can be said about ’89, ANSETT and its progress to the imminent demise has been said over and over and over again.. .. .We have all had to bear the consequences of our individual choices in our path through life.. .. .Some of you have retained the same strongly held views that will not be changed, some have gained important new personal insights, some have remained benign and others simply don’t care, as is their right.. .. .But there has now been sufficient time for everyone to have his or her “go”. And it is clear that there is little chance of changing others views now formed.. .. .We have said in recent times that we are tired of ’89.. .. .Do not misunderstand this as disinterest in the subject.. .. .What we are really tired of is the relentless reiteration of ‘the knowns’ by both sides. It is not necessary to say the same thing a hundred different ways a thousand times.. .. .What we are tired of is the continuous flow of Woomera-o-grams from both sides complaining about how “bad” is the other side.. .. .What we are alarmed at is the number of PPRuNers who have just “gone away” because they are tired of the incessant to-ing and fro-ing and taking with them the Rumour & News and other important things that make this BB so entertaining and useful.. .. .SO. .. .We have decided to take this opportunity at the demise of the ANSETT Company so clearly identified as the major protagonist in ’89 and out of respect for the many staff affected by it, to call a halt to ALL AND ANY hostilities between all participants in ’89 on this forum. . .. .Note that we do not preclude the SUBJECT MATTER, but we do so the individual attacks on individuals or groups thereof.. .. .THEY KNOW WHO THEY ARE. .. .Around midnight WST the last ANSETT flight leaves and gets parked tomorrow morning in Melbourne.. .. .Just so you have a bit of notice, as at Midnight WST tomorrow night Tues 5th March 2000 anything remotely resembling a personal attacks on individuals or groups of individuals in relation to the events of ANSETT and ’89 will result in the immediate binning of the perpetrator and deleting of the thread. There will be no prisoners taken. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .To be honest we are not exactly sure how this will work out and you can be sure we wont get it right all the time, but be assured that as far as we Woomera are concerned that part of our history is now over, so lets get on with the rest of our lives. . .. .If that does not sit well with you then you must understand that Danny has provided Woomera with a special mode function for use when necessary. It is called despot mode.. .. .We trust you will give us the benefit of the doubt and that you will continue to trust us to serve the best interests of the Forum.

[Lurk R]

Hear, hear. Sums up my sentiments in the "Understanding" thread exactly...

[Kaptin M]

Thanks Woomera - IF only PPRuNe had been around back then, one can only wonder whether it would have changed the course of events, if even only slightly. . .The opportunity for the exchange and interchange of ideas presented by the Internet, and in particular this website for professional pilots is undoubtedly extraordinarily advantageous to us, when used with discretion.. .. .As with many of you, I too am sick of the "same old, same old" wrt 1989, from both sides. On my side of the fence we didn't need to justify our stand, however as ordinary Australians we felt persecuted and punished for sticking to our guns over issues that have subsequently - 12 1/2 years on - remained unresolved.. .It's not called "excess baggage", as many on the other side would try to have you believe, it's called maintaining a principle albeit a moral and ethical one - a commodity fast disappearing in today's "instant self-gratification" society.. .Lightly gained is lightly valued, something cited to me when I was doing my gold Duke of Edinburgh Award eons ago.. .. .Having also been subject to the kelly Gang's moderating, I have appreciated the extra slack that you have cut us in allowing some posts to run a sometimes dubious path, but allowing both sides far more freedom of expression and vocab than had been previously permitted. I believe it allowed fuller arguments to those interested in pursuing it farther - and caused added chagrin to those who are "drawn" to the '89 posts because of their repugnance of the subject.. .. .24 hours to PPRuNe Pumpkin Time.. .. .Thanks again for the opportunities past, and future, Woomera, to discuss "that year". Hopefully should a similar situation ever present again in Australia, there has been enough discussion on this forum to indicate that the greedy, self-serving actions of a minority are NOT acceptable in Australia - even in the 21st Century!. .. .Farewell Ansett, and may the many positions created by its disappearance be filled by people who are able to work in harmony WITH their co-workers, rather than loners who see their peers as potential doormats, to be stepped upon or over at the earliest opportunity!!. .. .Sui Generis.

[shakespeare]

Hear,Hear.

[Whiskery]

Amen ~!

[Blue Sky Baron]

Such well balanced and appropriate posts I have not seen here for a long time.. .For my part I was blissfully unaware of the drama's of '89 at the time, and have learnt pretty much all there is to know about that episode through the pages of PPRuNe over the years and for that I am grateful for the knowledge.. .That is what I see as the benefit of this forum, to enlighten those who may not be in possession of all the facts. Sure there were a lot of mistruths posted along the way but I guess the individual reader will have to weed out the Sh!t from the roses but at least we have that opportunity.. .As said by Woomera, the time has now come for the personal abuse to end and I'm sure many, many PPRuNers will be happy to see the end of the slanging matches. We all know who's who and who did what and who didn't, so it's reasonable that we move on and try to secure a safe and harmonious future for all players in this wonderful industry.. .Best of luck to everyone for the future.. .BSB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

[Friend Of Prong]

Woomera. .Prong Wallop is nonplussed as to his banishment from the posting fraternity. Emails have been sent to various administrators requesting an explanation however the silence is deafening.. .Prongs' postings were very innocuous compared to some that have recently been written. "Sad day for last captain" has posts that are far more offensive and abusive.. .Prong Wallop duly requests reinstatement of his good name and posting rights.

[Flat Side Up]

Woomera,. .So the quotes below are representative of the new leaf with regard to '89.. ._________________________________________________. .Thanks again for the opportunities past, and future, Woomera, to discuss "that year". Hopefully should a similar situation ever present again in Australia, there has been enough discussion on this forum to indicate that the greedy, self-serving actions of a minority are NOT acceptable in Australia - even in the 21st Century!. .. .Farewell Ansett, and may the many positions created by its disappearance be filled by people who are able to work in harmony WITH their co-workers, rather than loners who see their peers as potential doormats, to be stepped upon or over at the earliest opportunity. .__________________________________________________. .. .These statements could just as easily be directed to the author of same. It is pretty obvious that they are meant to be denigrating and personally insulting to people who have a different opinion from his.. .. .Kap M has been one of the main offenders with personal vilification and obscenity on this forum. This current post sails pretty close to the wind once again.. . . .So welcome again to the "clean" forum.. . . . <small>[ 05 March 2002, 02:00: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</small>

[Buster Hyman]

Whilst your intentions are good Woomera, I think you'll find it hard for some to let it rest. When someone has previously mentioned that it will only be over when their opponents were dead, makes me think you still have a hard job ahead of you.. .. .At the end of the day, no one won. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[Woomera]

FSU. .. .Read my post and then read my lips. .. .After midnight WST is the start of zero tolerance time for EVERYONE. OK.. .. .I told you I will not take sides.. .. .Let's see if we can all work out how to continue to discuss the issues without resorting to personal abuse or at the best agree to disagree.. .. .If you haven't won over the other side with your view by now then it probably isn't going to happen, the consequences and reactions from both sides have now been made clear. Nothing said here can change that now.. .. .So lets get on with where to from here.. .. .Just remember midnight OZ WST, 1600 PUT, 1600 UTC.

[Flat Side Up]

Woomera,. .I have been the recipient of a fair bit of personal abuse and denigration. If you consult my posts you will see that I address the facts not the person and have not resorted to obscenity. I do not ever presume to win anyone over, rather to present facts and highlight inconsistencies. . .. .So we have a few hours for the others to have open slather. . .So be it.. . . . <small>[ 05 March 2002, 05:08: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</small>

[Whiskery]

FSU - stop being a petulant little prat and admit that you didn't read the notice thoroughly.

[Flat Side Up]

See what I mean. Keep it up Whiskery, that kind of stuff knocks holes in your credibility.. . How about ,instead, trying to justify to everyone why it was Ok for the AFAP to lie about the "dribble" of contract pilots when they knew there was a flood. In fact they didn't even admit to a dribble when they knew it was a flood.. .Never did get any one of you to answer this question. Try to do it without resorting to childish name calling.. . . . <small>[ 05 March 2002, 05:48: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</small>

[Thylacine]

Thank you Woomera. . .. .As someone who came to this forum seeking information and insights to the aviation industry in Australia it has been disappointing to be swamped with the angst and internal struggles of some unable to move on with their lives. . .. .The continual ranting against the new realities of the commercial aviation world by those who could not see it for the cud they kept on chewing and regurgitating was made worse only by their inability to see that their view was from a priveleged and incumbent position. . .. .May both Ansett and the struggles of '89 now rest in peace.

[Andu]

FSU, the latest of your constant and frequent reminders to us all that the AFAP lied to its members made me go in search of a recent post from the erudite Wiley on another thread. I’m sure Wiley won’t object if I quote him below.. .. .(For those who haven’t read the original thread, Wiley’s answer was in response to Dogimed, another respondent who seems to be in FSU’s camp, when he asked why the 89ers couldn’t forgive those who had chosen another course in 89 since an elderly veteran of Changi and the Burma Railway had forgiven the Japanese.) . .. .Wiley’s answer below gave an answer very much in line with my thoughts on the subject and the people involved.. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Dogimed, ask your old POW mate if he’s still with us whether his commendable sense of forgiveness extends to his fellow POWS who cheated their mates out of food rations by using doctored scales and informed on fellow prisoners to the Japanese for extra rations or favoured treatment, sometimes resulting in the deaths of their fellow countrymen. . .. .Or of the not so small number of Australian officers who, at the end of the war, still had their full issue of kit and lived relatively comfortably in the officers’ lines while some of their men didn’t even have a pair of shorts to wear – they got by with lap-laps. We Australians like to ignore some unpalatable truths in our maintenance of the ANZAC legend, but what I’ve mentioned above happened. My reference? ‘Changi Samauri’, by Penrod Deane and James Clavell’s classic ‘King Rat’. . .. .Those ‘not so bronzed’ ANZACs did pretty unspeakable things for their own advantage and to the detriment of their mates, as a small proportion of any group will do when faced with a desperate situation. But except for the Indians who joined Bose’s puppet Indian National Army under the Japanese, I don’t know of any other POWs in the Pacific theatre who donned the uniform of the Japanese and took up arms against their former comrades. . .. .Unlike the ‘heroes’ of 47 years later that we’re talking about here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">So my question to you is this, FSU: since even a casual reader of history will agree that General Percival and all the inept British and Australian senior military staff officers lied to their troops about their lack of preparations to resist the Japanese attacks, does that mean that each and every Allied soldier taken prisoner when Singapore fell had the right to go his own way and look after Number One at the expense of his comrades?

[Sub-Sonic MB]

Woomera - I am MOST disappointed.. .FSU didn't mention me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

[grusome]

G'day Andu,. .I know you are quoting Wiley, but I can't find the original thread, so your post will do. . .Whatever you do, do NOT quote James Clavell ("King Rat") as an authority on what went on at Changi. His work is total fiction.. .My authority? - Guy Baker, one of the survivors, who I recently had the pleasure of meeting, says in his book "More Lives Than a Cat", that Clavell is pure imagination... .I would quote you the page number, but I have lent the book to son #2.. .Sorry about this late response, I have just found your post.. .Gru

[Whiskery]

FSU - I did answer that question for you many moons ago. I have tried to locate the thread but there is so much '89 literature it is impossible.. .. .As I am a tolerant man I shall re-state, just for you, what I stated earlier.. .. .At the time, I found it difficult to accept that the AFAP had broken the 9th Commandment and lied to the troops. However, on speaking with Brian Mc. he assured me it was necessary at the time to prevent a possible break in the ranks. We elect our leaders and must have faith in their decisions, especially in time of dispute. I still didn't agree with the tactic but supported it at the time because I helped elect BM to that position.. .. .If you re-read Andu's post, carefully, you may just understand.. .. .Keep the faith:]

[Flat Side Up]

So what other things did they lie about before,during and after the tragedy? Seems there were quite a few hidden agendas.

[Waste Gate]

I object to the posts by people who admit they had nothing to do with the events of 89 - yet exhort the actors to 'get over it'.. .. .Only the actors understand the depths of the feelings generated during the dispute and it's aftermath.. .. .It is simplistic and disingenuous of outsiders to presume to understand the time and appropriateness of the healing processes experienced by the actors.. .. .While I respect the view that outsiders don't need to have the dispute rammed down their throats constantly - it does seem odd to me that we have engaged in selective gag-orders. The readers of this forum CHOOSE to open and read the various posts. They cannot claim that certain views and opinions have fallen like manna from the heavens to assault them in their houses. The chose to open and read the particular threads.. .. .What issue will be next for the thought police to shut down?. .. .Several posters here have claimed that their entire knowledge of the events in 89 has been drawn in subsequent years from posts here. This runs counter to claims recently made that it was pointless, futile and "annoying" to read people trying to explain the events. It was posited that, 'everyone knew what happened and has already made up their mind so there is no value in continuing to raise the matter of the 89 dispute on PPRuNe'. These two versions of the right for 89 discussions to continue on PPRuNe are contradictory. The one thing certain is it will act to ensure the younger generation is denied the information that might shine a light on the behaviour of certain portions of the older generation.