The "heroes" of Ansett 1989-2002.
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Lessons in Life
We, as pilots, live with our lives in the hands of other people. ATC, refuellers, LAMEs, F/As etc etc…...we just can’t and shouldn’t do it all by ourselves. And the most important people in our professional lives are other pilots. The ones in our crew room, the last guy who flew your aircraft, your F/O or Captain, the young guy looking over the fence who’ll one day be a 2 stripe junior F/O.
Any time, absolutely any time that you put ourself first and forget whatever euphemism for “solidarity” you feel comfortable with…then you are eroding the entire basis of our profession. Maybe not immediately and not even noticeably. It’s just like people stealing bricks from the Parthenon. Of course as individuals they can put themselves and their selfish needs first but eventually the whole thing comes down.
That’s why 1989 sits right up there in the minds of many. The vast proportion of AFAP members (whether they be ill-led, stubborn, foolish, naïve, wise, principled or dead ignorant) stuck together. Then and since. IN a hundred airlines across the globe. Not always perfectly and not always without sacrifice. Most never actively thought of the need for “sticking together” before 1989…but a lot learned that when the chips are down, your fellow pilots, warts and all, are all you’ve got.
In the case of Ansett…the edifice started crumbling only a few years after 1989 (helped by “me first” management) and finally came down in 2001. Inflated salaries, foolish route expansion strategies, horrible mix of types etc etc. Some post 1989 pilots at Ansett have learned this simple Lesson in Life the hard way.
This Lesson wasn’t invented in 1989…it was probably passed down to us pilots as part of the general legacy of all working people. Paid for in blood sometimes. But if TESNA has a future it will be one where “all for one and one for all” is the way things are and those who can’t hack this should go somewhere else. You start a new airline with even one or two “me first” bad apples and it hasn’t a prayer. If you don’t have decent CRM outside of the cockpit you sure won’t have it inside. And then really nasty things can happen.
Cheers
Sherm
We, as pilots, live with our lives in the hands of other people. ATC, refuellers, LAMEs, F/As etc etc…...we just can’t and shouldn’t do it all by ourselves. And the most important people in our professional lives are other pilots. The ones in our crew room, the last guy who flew your aircraft, your F/O or Captain, the young guy looking over the fence who’ll one day be a 2 stripe junior F/O.
Any time, absolutely any time that you put ourself first and forget whatever euphemism for “solidarity” you feel comfortable with…then you are eroding the entire basis of our profession. Maybe not immediately and not even noticeably. It’s just like people stealing bricks from the Parthenon. Of course as individuals they can put themselves and their selfish needs first but eventually the whole thing comes down.
That’s why 1989 sits right up there in the minds of many. The vast proportion of AFAP members (whether they be ill-led, stubborn, foolish, naïve, wise, principled or dead ignorant) stuck together. Then and since. IN a hundred airlines across the globe. Not always perfectly and not always without sacrifice. Most never actively thought of the need for “sticking together” before 1989…but a lot learned that when the chips are down, your fellow pilots, warts and all, are all you’ve got.
In the case of Ansett…the edifice started crumbling only a few years after 1989 (helped by “me first” management) and finally came down in 2001. Inflated salaries, foolish route expansion strategies, horrible mix of types etc etc. Some post 1989 pilots at Ansett have learned this simple Lesson in Life the hard way.
This Lesson wasn’t invented in 1989…it was probably passed down to us pilots as part of the general legacy of all working people. Paid for in blood sometimes. But if TESNA has a future it will be one where “all for one and one for all” is the way things are and those who can’t hack this should go somewhere else. You start a new airline with even one or two “me first” bad apples and it hasn’t a prayer. If you don’t have decent CRM outside of the cockpit you sure won’t have it inside. And then really nasty things can happen.
Cheers
Sherm
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Very true Sherm Boy.
As for the Japan "heroes" I guess they are pleased they are not back in OZ with their co "heroes" on the 76 at QF. Those "heroes" look decidedly uncomfortable wandering around amongst the QF guys. Especially when they are unfortunate enough to run into some of their ex mates. The look says it all.
As for the Japan "heroes" I guess they are pleased they are not back in OZ with their co "heroes" on the 76 at QF. Those "heroes" look decidedly uncomfortable wandering around amongst the QF guys. Especially when they are unfortunate enough to run into some of their ex mates. The look says it all.
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Good post Sherm.
As an AN pilot I can`t believe my colleagues don`t think 89 hasn`t or doesn`t still drastically affect our vocation.I will spare the gruesome details,for fear of being too controversial an jeopardising my position.
Some PPrune posts that name present managers are foolhardy,as AN security has been instructed to attempt to obtain server details.Please tell me this is not possible!
A terrible legacy 89.
As an AN pilot I can`t believe my colleagues don`t think 89 hasn`t or doesn`t still drastically affect our vocation.I will spare the gruesome details,for fear of being too controversial an jeopardising my position.
Some PPrune posts that name present managers are foolhardy,as AN security has been instructed to attempt to obtain server details.Please tell me this is not possible!
A terrible legacy 89.
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Hey Bird Poo (Duck Muck)
What's this s**t supposed to mean?
. .Some PPrune posts that name present managers are foolhardy,as AN security has been instructed to attempt to obtain server details.Please tell me this is not possible!
. .Is this an attempt to stop free speach. I would suspect that AN Security will be escorted off the property today!
What's this s**t supposed to mean?
. .Some PPrune posts that name present managers are foolhardy,as AN security has been instructed to attempt to obtain server details.Please tell me this is not possible!
. .Is this an attempt to stop free speach. I would suspect that AN Security will be escorted off the property today!
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bonvoi,. . Where did you get that nonsense from? The ex AN 767 drivers on charter to QF don't suffer from the problem you wish upon them and from such a distance(Toronto, NSW?)
Don't believe everything you read here it is liable to be greatly distorted.
Don't believe everything you read here it is liable to be greatly distorted.
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Duck Muck,
Chill dude. If you hunt around some other threads in this forum you will learn that anonymity is the essence of this network. Although, as Woomera rightly points out, there is something a little corrupt in the championing of free speech under 'nom de pleumes'. Nevertheless, human nature being what it is, some personalities have difficulty in expressing themselves candidly in any other format than anonymously, so it is a corruptibility that lends itself to the tabling of otherwise latent issues of concern and therefore tolerable.
On the issue of AN Security receiving instructions to track the Server and identities of the 'postees', let me assure you that AN Security has more important things to do than scanning PPRUNE posts and engaging in 'McCarthyism' (the flushing out of Communists for the politically ingnorant).
In any event the PPRUNE database details are held by only three persons, all resident of the UK and with no affiliation to Dunnunda Aviation.
Apologies Mr.Woomera if I preempted any of your commentary on this thread.
Chill dude. If you hunt around some other threads in this forum you will learn that anonymity is the essence of this network. Although, as Woomera rightly points out, there is something a little corrupt in the championing of free speech under 'nom de pleumes'. Nevertheless, human nature being what it is, some personalities have difficulty in expressing themselves candidly in any other format than anonymously, so it is a corruptibility that lends itself to the tabling of otherwise latent issues of concern and therefore tolerable.
On the issue of AN Security receiving instructions to track the Server and identities of the 'postees', let me assure you that AN Security has more important things to do than scanning PPRUNE posts and engaging in 'McCarthyism' (the flushing out of Communists for the politically ingnorant).
In any event the PPRUNE database details are held by only three persons, all resident of the UK and with no affiliation to Dunnunda Aviation.
Apologies Mr.Woomera if I preempted any of your commentary on this thread.
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Thanks for the replies
Not scaremongering,just relaying info.A high profile AN manager was incensed at details of his possible actions during the dispute,being rehashed on Prune.He told some of the troops AN security was instructed to chase server details.Obviously a bluff but it frightened me.
Not scaremongering,just relaying info.A high profile AN manager was incensed at details of his possible actions during the dispute,being rehashed on Prune.He told some of the troops AN security was instructed to chase server details.Obviously a bluff but it frightened me.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Kaptin M
Sorry I can't resist this, but,
"at midnight,.....unless he has 'adult' children who haven't yet come home from a night of fun and frivolity" <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Sorry I can't resist this, but,
"at midnight,.....unless he has 'adult' children who haven't yet come home from a night of fun and frivolity" <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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M
That sounds like a political purge.
The purge at AN a little different.Some F/O`s a little outspoken did get your knock on the door at midnight.They have now been released onto the aviation unempolyment scrapheap and labeled the bottom %5.A colleague even had a prospective employer tell him "Why should I employ you if AN still flys A320s,dispensing of its` less capable pilots and troublemakers".
Lesson I have learnt from displaced F/Os from the dispute.I will fall on my sword when I have another airline job to go to.No disrespect intended KAPT M.
That sounds like a political purge.
The purge at AN a little different.Some F/O`s a little outspoken did get your knock on the door at midnight.They have now been released onto the aviation unempolyment scrapheap and labeled the bottom %5.A colleague even had a prospective employer tell him "Why should I employ you if AN still flys A320s,dispensing of its` less capable pilots and troublemakers".
Lesson I have learnt from displaced F/Os from the dispute.I will fall on my sword when I have another airline job to go to.No disrespect intended KAPT M.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
Sounds as though you were SPRUNG in "The Act", Gaunty <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> ....one would only hope (for YOUR sake) that it was a "convential" position at the time!! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
The "knock on the door at midnight", D.M. was metaphorically referring to the AN management pilot who was, apparently, not altogether happy that his actions were above board, and that their publication here on PPRuNe exposed him for what he REALLY is!
The old adage, "Be careful - the toes that you step on today may well be connected to the @rse you will have to kiss tomorrow" is especially applicable in aviaton, even moreso today than say 12 years ago, as ever more pilots find it necessary to venture o/s to find employment.. .The young ex-AN F/O's are going to be around for a loooong time and if they follow in similar footsteps to their predecessors, are going to end up in positions of authority.. .Having been through the traumatic experiences you have - and are, currently - undergone, certain personalities will remain forever burnished in your memory.
The "knock on the door at midnight", D.M. was metaphorically referring to the AN management pilot who was, apparently, not altogether happy that his actions were above board, and that their publication here on PPRuNe exposed him for what he REALLY is!
The old adage, "Be careful - the toes that you step on today may well be connected to the @rse you will have to kiss tomorrow" is especially applicable in aviaton, even moreso today than say 12 years ago, as ever more pilots find it necessary to venture o/s to find employment.. .The young ex-AN F/O's are going to be around for a loooong time and if they follow in similar footsteps to their predecessors, are going to end up in positions of authority.. .Having been through the traumatic experiences you have - and are, currently - undergone, certain personalities will remain forever burnished in your memory.
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Furthermore, DM, the legal entanglements involved in anyone trying to invade privacy of posters on an anonymous forum, might be a little more than they would care to bring to the beak.. ."And how did you arrive at this conclusion, that DM posted this or that"?. ."Well, M'lud, I STOLE it from PPrune" <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Some points of interest,
Why did the ACTU etc distance themselves from the AFAP at the time
Many Industrial Relations courses/degrees etc look at the dispute and how it was conducted by both sides, the lesson being how NOT to handle a dispute.
The notion that airline drivers did not displace GA pilots in 89 is rubbish, I was a syudent back then and knew a good few casual bankrun pilots that lost their jobs to airline pilots comming back.
It's happening AGAIN...NOW. Airtex, Transair, Pelair....only ones that I have seen personally, but believe there are many more companies flicking their casual pilots for the ex AN/KD drivers etc.
Even more ex airline pilots are trying to get back into instructing, wanting to renew their instructor ratings etc. Have had 5 enquiries this week.
Why did the ACTU etc distance themselves from the AFAP at the time
Many Industrial Relations courses/degrees etc look at the dispute and how it was conducted by both sides, the lesson being how NOT to handle a dispute.
The notion that airline drivers did not displace GA pilots in 89 is rubbish, I was a syudent back then and knew a good few casual bankrun pilots that lost their jobs to airline pilots comming back.
It's happening AGAIN...NOW. Airtex, Transair, Pelair....only ones that I have seen personally, but believe there are many more companies flicking their casual pilots for the ex AN/KD drivers etc.
Even more ex airline pilots are trying to get back into instructing, wanting to renew their instructor ratings etc. Have had 5 enquiries this week.
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With all due respect, Oz Gr.3, the pilots that have lost their jobs at AN KD ect. are in this situation thru no fault of their own. These people are not taking GA jobs whilst saying to GA pilots that they shouldn't take airline jobs. These people are now legitimate GA pilots. On a personal note, I am not seeking to take a job in GA simply because it doesn't pay enough. Mrs ANFO and I have a reasonbly modest lifestyle but with 3 kids, 2 cars, a boat and a 1/2 share in an aeroplane, the salary of a GA pilot is unsustainable. I work for myself now and the flying that I do is mainly on business, as I have contracts in Bris. and Syd. It is a regretable fact of life that these ex-airline pilots will displace many in GA simply because of their level of experience. Bear in mind that these people no longer have an airline job to go to unless they are recruited into Qantas or Virgin and many are missing out here for a variety of reasons. Some are going to Japan or the Middle East and many are leaving the industry altogether. This later factor will result in a tragic loss of industrial memory. I do hope that you dont feel that the ex-airline people should just fade away to satisfy your career ambitions, because your post above reads just like that.
Moderator
ANFO,
It is useful to recall that many of the 89ers found that their careers were taken from them.
You, like I, have other strings to our bows and the respective fallouts were less traumatic ... I felt very much for my colleagues then .. as I do for yours now ... I trust that you are sufficiently human to have similar feelings ?
It is useful to recall that many of the 89ers found that their careers were taken from them.
You, like I, have other strings to our bows and the respective fallouts were less traumatic ... I felt very much for my colleagues then .. as I do for yours now ... I trust that you are sufficiently human to have similar feelings ?
