Foreign pilots as temporary workers for Airlines in Canada

[j_fleish]

All you guys have failed to mention the opportunities that Sunwing offers their current Canadian employees right now with them buying the US Vacation company Vacation Express. This Aircrafts are C-reg aircrafts operating out of the US cities of Atlanta, Cincinatti and Memphis (which just got extended to fly next summer as well till October 2013) giving Canadian pilots a chance to provide the states with pilots and I do say Canadian pilots because this is a summer operation and no foreign workers are flying for Sunwing then. I think with them purchasing vacation express it will give Sunwing the opportunity to buy and train more pilots in the future once Vacation Express expands the cities offering Sunwing flights. Once this Happens I can see Sunwing acquiring more aircrafts to use in Canada for the winter and the States for the summer. But for now until this happens I think its best to just wait it out and not try to put the jobs at jeopardy by forcing the airline to strictly wet lease

[Montrealguy]

Originally Posted by aileron

Greetings from a Canadian/Brit flying for Thomson Airways in the UK (part of the TUI group).
We have pilots flying in Canada during the winter and have done so for atleast ten years. We bring Canadian pilots over in the Summer and have done so for atleast ten years. Opposite capacity issues, businesses working together and Aviation Authorities in the loop.

Ten years ago Sunwing didn't exist nor did today's version of Canjet. In those days it was Skyservice doing the reciprocal deal that no one in Canada complained about because they played by the rules. 30, 40 or 50 European pilots came to fly for them in the winter and an equal (more or less) number of Canadian pilots went to fly in Europe in the Summer.

That is fine and we were all ok with it.

Last winter, however, Sunwing had 150 Canadian pilots on its payrol and had about 200 foreign pilots on temporary contracts. In the summer, they send about 60 to Europe. Some Sunwing pilots informed us that next winter, Sunwing intended to hire up to 300 foreign pilots on short term contracts. In fact they recently even had a job opening for a full time employee just to manage the foreign pilots' paperwork, visas, training records and licence validations.
Canjet only brings in about 30 foreign pilots but sends none to Europe. Both of these companies have begun abusing the system which is why we want to stop them, or rather, we want them to do it by the rules.

I'm going to quote you the exact Immigration Canada policy copied from their manual:

R205(b) allows foreign workers to take up employment when reciprocal opportunities are provided for Canadian citizens to take temporary employment abroad. Exchange programs offer the opportunity of gaining international experience and allow the cultural exchange of both foreign and Canadian participants and their employers. Entry under reciprocal provisions should result in a neutral labour market impact.
Although it is not necessary that there be full reciprocity in practice within the same time frame (i.e. one for one exchange), there must at least be proof that there is or has been reciprocity, and the general order of magnitude of exchanges should be similar in order to demonstrate that, over a reasonable period of time (e.g. five years), there is a general neutral impact on the labour market

Sunwing has been doing this since 2005, so seven years. We have asked in writing to Immigration Canada how many Sunwing pilots have gone to work in Europe since 2005, and do you know what they replied ? :

"We do not have that information".

I have their signed reply right here on my desk on their letterhead.

I recently even heard the rumor that when they count the number of their pilots "working" in Europe, they include those Sunwing pilots who go overseas on Wet-Leases with Sunwing aircraft, when those pilots do not even require a work permit or a Foreign licence validation to do so. These pilots stay at the employ and control of Sunwing. If this was accounting it would be called fraud..........

All we want is for the existing rules to be applied. No more, no less. We are not disgruntled pilots.

I don't really understand the relation between your Air Canada buddy's anecdote and this thread. They have a series of major issues in that company that they are dealing with, which are unique to Air Canada and which are unrelated to the subject of this thread. I work at Air Transat where the vast majority of pilots are happy and have a great time flying. We have great routes which are diverse and seasonal, great layovers and great staff. We do not have the same internal problems as Air Canada.

PT6A, while claiming here to go work in Canada every year, claims in another thread to be an A-320 pilot so I don't really know where he/she fits in this story which these days only concerns B-737NG pilots, but that's another matter......

Cheers...

[Montrealguy]

Originally Posted by j_fleish

All you guys have failed to mention the opportunities that Sunwing offers their current Canadian employees right now with them buying the US Vacation company Vacation Express. This Aircrafts are C-reg aircrafts operating out of the US cities of Atlanta, Cincinatti and Memphis (which just got extended to fly next summer as well till October 2013) giving Canadian pilots a chance to provide the states with pilots and I do say Canadian pilots because this is a summer operation and no foreign workers are flying for Sunwing then. I think with them purchasing vacation express it will give Sunwing the opportunity to buy and train more pilots in the future once Vacation Express expands the cities offering Sunwing flights. Once this Happens I can see Sunwing acquiring more aircrafts to use in Canada for the winter and the States for the summer. But for now until this happens I think its best to just wait it out and not try to put the jobs at jeopardy by forcing the airline to strictly wet lease

Yes that is positive, for the time it will last. Expect that to be temporary though. It's a fifth freedom charter. These are never allowed for very long, unless you have an aircraft no other local can provide (like an Antonov 124). It will go on until a US airline opposes it on the basis that it has aircraft that can do the same flights, and then the charterer will be forced to use a US airline (or Sunwing Vacations will buy one).

http://docketsinfo.dot.gov/reports/u...2012-05-04.pdf

On the positive side, I also took note that Sunwing seems to have taken step to hire some temporary pilots next winter without requiring a B-737NG type-rating as a pre-requisite. I also took note that Sunwing was going to upgrade a number of Canadian first officers to Captain position instead of leaving these guys in the right seat year after year, filling the left seat with European Captains every winter as has been the case.

All good things if they are all true and Sunwing keeps moving in that direction......

[Montrealguy]

Originally Posted by PT6A

The issue is currency, not hours.

It is not sensible to keep switching between two types of aircraft and two types of operations.

There are training costs to be borne in mind, not to mention there will potentially be a chance for confusion on the flight deck, or just generally not upto the same speed as one should be.

You wrote the above post I think. In the past 3 years, you have claimed to be on the ATR, on the 320 and on the 737NG, and you go to Canada every year...... but it's ok. I submit argument to express my position and you are free to express yours..... regardless of what and where your really fly.....

[PT6A]

Where have I said I come to Canada every year?

I think you will find I said that each season I have flown in Canada the sky was the same colour (or words to that effect)

Your right I stand by what I said, one type at one time.

You might also find that more than 737NG's have been flown in Canada by overseas airlines.

[aileron]

Montrealguy,
AC, its problems, my buddy's experience of them
and your perception of what is happening at
Sunwing are all related. Theyre related because
youve got an axe to grind and frankly I dont
agree with it or your message. We traded pilots
with Canada3000 when I was at Air2000, way back.
Do you believe the numbers were equal? They
werent there were always more Canadians over
here than Brits over there. Whatever. Over the years Ive heard
it all. People have short and selective memories.
Didnt seem to help C3 did it?

It all evens out.......Kharma.

[Willie Everlearn]

Montrealguy

You're wasting your breath, not to mention your time, debating this issue with some of the European morons posting and spewing crap about business and single type ratings.

Until they get some hours and learn something about the aviation industry they will remain starry-eyed babes in the woods knowing not the difference between employment and wet lease.

Willie

Aileron

I was once EGCC based Canada 3000. That was a wet lease. No one in the UK employed me seasonally, monthly, or weekly.
Any Canadian carrier using a seasonal wet lease is normal and by the rules. What Sunwing and Canjet are doing is NOT exclusively "wet" lease. Wake up and smell the coffee! Some of us 'colonials' have a modicum of intellect and happen to know the difference between the two arrangements.
The broader issue includes the Canadian aviation industry and its survival. If our less experienced pilots lose opportunity to foreigners based on bad legislation creatively interpreted by many then when does our home industry provide them with opportunity? After the experienced Canadian pilots have all left the country?

When we have a shortage of pilots in Canada, and NEED to hire foreigners, I'll be one of the first to "welcome" you. Try sticking to the topic of this discussion?
Last time I checked most Canadians abroad were there because they were experienced, type rated and working in foreign lands because those foreign lands were short of home grown talent. Again, not the same issue but some keep trying to say it is. It isn't!

P.S. I'm a Canadian pilot, employed in Canada and I can assure you, NOT affiliated with any pilot union nor do I have any axe to grind with anyone. Except this bulls*it practice by a mickey mouse outfit trying to use slack ass federal labour law relating to seasonal migrant workers picking produce to bring foreign pilots into the country rather than hiring Canadian pilots more than qualified and able to fly an NG.
Sorry. That's just not on.

[gumbi]

Very very well put! Thanks Willie.

[Left Coaster]

What Willie said...clearly in touch! Atta boy Willie!

[PacWest]

Thanks Willie, well done in plain Canadian english even one of the euros may understand and,

Montrealguy kudos for maintaining a well modulated and intelligent discussion against such 'odds'.
`

[aileron]

So Willie while you were based in EGCC are
saying that there wasnt anyone in the UK who
could do the job?

Sunwing will reap what they sow.

Im happy being Canadian but there are as
many 'morons' in Canada as in Europe.

Happy flying.

[Willie Everlearn]

aileron

There isn't a doubt in my mind that at the time we were "wet" leased to Air 2000 there were ready, willing, capable and qualified persons from the UK who could have done the job. Pretty much as it is today. The decision to "wet" lease was made by A2K and their tour operators.

If A2K had employed type rated Canadian crew on their B757s, then helped obtain LVCs and allowed those crews to operate "G" registered aircraft alongside UK citizens....then we'd be having an entirely different discussion. Wouldn't we?

NB
There are no monopolies when it comes to morons nor apparently are there geographic boundaries. I merely associate moronic statements with moronic persons and if their geographic location is obvious then it's not only apparent to me but to many others.

When Canada is faced with a pilot shortage I hope our European colleagues will apply. Until then...Sorry, through no fault of their own, they're persona non grata at present.

Next?

Willie

[Rhys Perraton]

Why don't you whinging, whining, weenies get back on AvCanada where you belong and leave PPruNe to the real aeroplane people.

[Montrealguy]

Originally Posted by Rhys Perraton

Why don't you whinging, whining, weenies get back on AvCanada where you belong and leave PPruNe to the real aeroplane people

Posted on AVCANADA on June 8th 2012:

Originally Posted by Rhys Perraton

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

AVCANADA • View topic - Canadian North fires boozing Dash 8 pilot

But what is one to expect from someone who does not keep his own word? He posted here back on Aug 18, 2010.

Originally Posted by Rhys Perraton

Sharp contrast to the moaning, whining, snivelling bunch of ninnies that inhabit Avcanada. I will never look at it again.

This coming from a Brit, who lives and works in Canada. He thinks Pprune is for Brits only, even the Canada Forum of Pprune. He also thinks that aviation is for Brits only. In fact, he thinks that if you don't speak ENGLISH, you speak some "funny dialect".

Originally Posted by Rhys Perraton

The international language of aviation is ENGLISH not French or any other funny dialect.

I happen to speak English and three "funny dialects" for a total of four. I wonder how many dialects Rhys Perraton speaks? He probably brags about not being able to speak any other than his own. Why should he have learn any funny dialects? Anyone who has anything interesting to say, says so in English......

At least he is brave, for that moniker I thought he was using to hide behind for his posts, is in fact, his real name......

I'm sorry for this post which is a bit out of character for me. I always do my best to remain civil, polite, respectful and I try to argue the message rather than attack the messenger as others are in the habit of doing here, as can be seen by reading some of the last few posts of this thread. But Mr Perraton didn't even have a point he wanted to make that relates to this thread, other than he does not want Canadians posting here......only "real aeroplane people".

PS: I am on reserve this month and have not been called a single time yet, which is why I have all this time on my hands that I can waste here......

[Willie Everlearn]

Whomever Rhys Perraton is, or thinks he is, it's for sure and certain he has nothing to offer regarding this topic.

Now, once he acquires some flying experience and spends some time flying in a real aviation environment he may have something intelligent to contribute.

Maybe.

Willie Everlearn

[UB6IB9]

Some of your posts and positions on this subject are just embarrassing. It's obvious some posters here have never taken an economics course or are just ignorant of economics, finance, marketing and accounting. You people don't realize how simple this actually is. Bitch and moan as much as you want. Foreign pilots will continue to be utilized in Canada whether you like it or not. The CEO is a Chartered Accountant and doesnt care that Johnny 1900 wants to fly a jet. If foreign pilots aren't allowed anymore resulting in increased labour costs, the tour operator will shut down the airline, lay everyone off and go back to wetleasing. The airline needs the tour operator not the other way around. Simple as that.

[Denti]

Hmm, seems nothings been done yet, the application period for next winters canada flying started a couple days ago. Just hope something better comes in, there is talk about flying in australia as well.

[Montrealguy]

Originally Posted by UB6IB9

If foreign pilots aren't allowed anymore resulting in increased labour costs, the tour operator will shut down the airline, lay everyone off and go back to wetleasing. The airline needs the tour operator not the other way around. Simple as that.

Wetleasing from whom? A foreign airline?
When a Tour operator Wet-Leases a foreign carrier, that is called Fifth Freedom and local airlines can and will oppose it, as Sunwing Vacations has already learned the hard way.....

Denial of the authority to operate series of fifth freedom round-trip charter flights between Canada and various destinations, other than United Kingdom - Excel Airways Limited

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/54-a-2005

It is possible to some extent but only on route segments between the lessor's country and the lessee's. For example, Sunwing Vacations could Wetlease Thomson to do flights between Canada and the UK, but that Thomson Aircraft would not be allowed to do flights between Canada and France......