Air Canada Age 60 Limit To End
E&OE is an initialism standing for errors and omissions excepted. The phrase is used in an attempt to reduce legal liability for incorrect or incomplete information supplied in a contractually related document such as a price list, quotation or specification. It is often applied as a disclaimer in situations...
That is a very rough definition of the above mentioned item by Phil340 it would appear at "first blush" that YWG has a few more lawyers involved in this thread and as hard as it, maybe this thread should die as it could be used by some as potential litigation bait.
I really hope I am wrong on this but after the forum at A.C.P.A. was shutdown because of allegations of some people "strip mining" I am not so sure..........
That is a very rough definition of the above mentioned item by Phil340 it would appear at "first blush" that YWG has a few more lawyers involved in this thread and as hard as it, maybe this thread should die as it could be used by some as potential litigation bait.
I really hope I am wrong on this but after the forum at A.C.P.A. was shutdown because of allegations of some people "strip mining" I am not so sure..........
Last edited by a330pilotcanada; 8th Aug 2010 at 13:11. Reason: grammar
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ACPA should go after the flypast60 were it hurts the most, there wallets. When is the next round of contract negotiations with AC? Redistribute the wealth, go after slashing top end salaries and increasing the bottom to middle end salaries. Out with pay based on what you fly rather how many years you've been with the company.
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Phil,
Suggest ya reread my post because it’s pretty clear that I know change is coming and I embrace that change that is directed by OUR membership!
I have worked for Parc for 44 months and I have done another 1.5 year contract overseas. So please don't try to educate me on the workings of overseas work that you ALMOST had..........been there done that! I can tell you a lot better qualified people than you cannot find work over 60 in the contract world and although that is slowly changing working over 60 is the exception not the rule...
I could not care how you live your life and if you want to spend your time suing ACPA to get your old life back have at er....
Phil I only drink with people whom I respect.......
I wish you a long, happy and healthy retirement!
Cormac
Suggest ya reread my post because it’s pretty clear that I know change is coming and I embrace that change that is directed by OUR membership!
I have worked for Parc for 44 months and I have done another 1.5 year contract overseas. So please don't try to educate me on the workings of overseas work that you ALMOST had..........been there done that! I can tell you a lot better qualified people than you cannot find work over 60 in the contract world and although that is slowly changing working over 60 is the exception not the rule...
I could not care how you live your life and if you want to spend your time suing ACPA to get your old life back have at er....
Phil I only drink with people whom I respect.......
I wish you a long, happy and healthy retirement!
Cormac
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Your lawyer knows that but are you guys prepared for the water-down conditions upon which you will be able to fly past 60 ?
When ACPA has run out of legal delaying methods unless a cease and desist happens first, we are all going to pay the very heavy price not only for ignoring the ruling, but the blatantly discriminatory tactics that ACPA has employed thus far to the thundering approval of the unenlightened. Your watered down working conditions (read discriminatory) are a figment of wishful thinking. Those pilots are, and will be full members of the bargaining unit with all the rights and privileges that you enjoy. So says the law.
You guys are trying in vain to convince all opposed to your position to quit and accept your assertion that you're going to take us to the cleaners. I guess that is you best chance at an outright victory so I can't blame you for trying.
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Just wondering. As you appear to be quite familiar with the inner workings of the CHRT, how many of their decisions have been overturned on appeal by the Federal Court?
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Ray is the guy to ask about that, but I do know that ACPA cannot look to the Federal Court for salvation. It's the Federal Court that set the conditions for the ruling last August that ACPA is ignoring. If anybody there bothered to stick their head up above their own delusions long enough to look around at what's happening in this country they would stop fighting the inevitable and find a way to come to terms with it.
Instead, ACPA and many members simply refuse to believe forced retirement based on age is discrimination despite the law in general and the CHRT ruling specifically addressing this case. They continue to believe the contract as voted on by the majority of members somehow negates Canadian Law.
School children know better.
ACPA has steadfastly refused to accept what any moron should have figured out long ago, and continues to act irrationally making the situation increasingly worse despite constant warnings. The damage that will occur as a result will no doubt be blamed on the people giving the warnings, not the people ignoring them.
Instead, ACPA and many members simply refuse to believe forced retirement based on age is discrimination despite the law in general and the CHRT ruling specifically addressing this case. They continue to believe the contract as voted on by the majority of members somehow negates Canadian Law.
School children know better.
ACPA has steadfastly refused to accept what any moron should have figured out long ago, and continues to act irrationally making the situation increasingly worse despite constant warnings. The damage that will occur as a result will no doubt be blamed on the people giving the warnings, not the people ignoring them.
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ACPA should go after the flypast60 were it hurts the most, there wallets. When is the next round of contract negotiations with AC? Redistribute the wealth, go after slashing top end salaries and increasing the bottom to middle end salaries. Out with pay based on what you fly rather how many years you've been with the company.
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Everything ACPA does, and everything people suggest is aimed at punishing anybody who chooses to stay past 60. Our compensation scheme will likely have to be changed, and it's long overdue because it is a total goatf**k the way it is now, but still people think of it as retribution rather than improving everyone's lot.
Such narrowminded and vindictive thinking.
Such narrowminded and vindictive thinking.
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What ACPA (with the approval of the majority of the membership) is trying to do is to continue to reward those who respect their part of the deal and leave at 60 (and not affecting/delaying the junior pilots ''normal'' career progression.
Those who want to fly untill they died will not be able to enjoy that benefit (SERP/Tophat).
There will be no discrimination due to age but an option for individual to chose.
Those who want to fly untill they died will not be able to enjoy that benefit (SERP/Tophat).
There will be no discrimination due to age but an option for individual to chose.
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Pay system
The basis of formula pay is sound. The problems result from modifications and concessions we have made at one time or another. If we made the effort to restore the principle of formula pay including maximum two year flat salary, we would have a very solid basis for remuneration.
ACPA has studied pay systems in detail and believes that formula pay is the best system for the membership. Suggest you might review the results of these efforts. It may change your position.
In my personal opinion, ACPA is unable to withdraw from the Age 60 issue. The membership is exposed to litigation and possibly liable for substantial penalties. ACPA has no choice but to continue along their current path hoping that they can avoid a large lawsuit by achieving a positive result.
Mitigating retention of 60+ pilots has yet to be discussed, though I believe a return to indexed pensions, extension of the contribution period, and reduction of years required to qualify for pension would assist in encouraging pilots to consider earlier departures. Those pilots who have a passion for the profession will stay no matter the incentives to leave.
Complicated issue that will only be resolved by rational and intelligent examination, discussion, evaluation, and implementation.
ACPA has studied pay systems in detail and believes that formula pay is the best system for the membership. Suggest you might review the results of these efforts. It may change your position.
In my personal opinion, ACPA is unable to withdraw from the Age 60 issue. The membership is exposed to litigation and possibly liable for substantial penalties. ACPA has no choice but to continue along their current path hoping that they can avoid a large lawsuit by achieving a positive result.
Mitigating retention of 60+ pilots has yet to be discussed, though I believe a return to indexed pensions, extension of the contribution period, and reduction of years required to qualify for pension would assist in encouraging pilots to consider earlier departures. Those pilots who have a passion for the profession will stay no matter the incentives to leave.
Complicated issue that will only be resolved by rational and intelligent examination, discussion, evaluation, and implementation.
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In my personal opinion, ACPA is unable to withdraw from the Age 60 issue. The membership is exposed to litigation and possibly liable for substantial penalties. ACPA has no choice but to continue along their current path hoping that they can avoid a large lawsuit by achieving a positive result.
What if ACPA went to the FlyPast60 group and said ...
"We will withdraw any objections to your groups desire to FlyPast60 and those Pilots can come back on the ACPA list with their old seniority positions if you drop any damages to ACPA". What would the response of the FlyPast60 group be? This seems like a good solution. Then a unified Pilot group could move forward. If AC tried to levy any costs against ACPA, the solution is simple, simply DOWN TOOLS. The Pilots have always held the best hand ... they just always fold before the flop ...
(Air Canada could join ACPA in this strategy also, why ignore the inevitable? Ya gotta know when to fold 'em.)
Last edited by Vic777; 9th Aug 2010 at 14:09.
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ACPA has steadfastly refused to accept what any moron should have figured out long ago, and continues to act irrationally making the situation increasingly worse despite constant warnings. The damage that will occur as a result will no doubt be blamed on the people giving the warnings, not the people ignoring them.
Enginefire, your post is dripping in desperation matey. If your opponents would just give up and let you have your way you wouldn't have to inflict the financial beat-down. We get it.
Enginefire, your post is dripping in desperation matey. If your opponents would just give up and let you have your way you wouldn't have to inflict the financial beat-down. We get it.
Good Afternoon Engine Fire Left.
What I find interesting with your posts are the legal issues that you have raised. I am a board member of a charitable organization and at every board meeting we have our lawyer sits in and advises the board on whether the direction we are taking is legal.
That being said do you not think that A.C.P.A. does not actively engage their legal experts when ever there is a new issue? I would think that they are working hard to represent the union in not only a legal way but one that is honest. To parallel something from the airline history if you remember Mr Milton was criticized by sitting on the sidelines while Mr Schwartz of ONEX was travelling cross-country telling the country that his plan would save the airlines. After careful planning Mr Milton and company thwarted his plans by staying in the background and doing their homework there by winning the game.
That being said yes there is a legal process under way which will determine the age 60 is discrimination or that a group of professionals can determine their collective future. The outcome which the courts will decide is whether collective bargaining decided by a majority is legal or the CHRT will have the day.
So where does this go next will a observant Orthodox Jew claim discrimination because of the requirement to observe Shabbat prohibits him or her working from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday? Alternatively, a devout Muslim claiming discrimination by being forced to serve alcohol or an unsafe food?
There are many other issues that you can look at but the one that is relevant is the age 60 one. To use an analogy we are on the space shuttle the solids are lit and that my friend is V1! So we should all take a deep breath walk to the fridge like I am going to do and have a very cold beer as we await the legal outcome in the late fall.
You mentioned previously about leaving the membership because you might be sued. I would talk to an "impartial" legal expert and I am sure you will find out is when you "cut yourself from the herd" you will make yourself a larger target as opposed to being in the herd. In other words you will find out when you are sued is when the writ is delivered to you and everything else is rhetoric.
Oh I forgot something to add from a personal perspective retirement is great and my only complaint so far is that there is not enough time in the day.
Just enjoy your career but make sure you develop outside interests early, never allow your persona be defined by what you put on when you go to work and remember there are only two things in life that are important your health and your family everything else is chump change my friend!
Oh yes that beer..................
What I find interesting with your posts are the legal issues that you have raised. I am a board member of a charitable organization and at every board meeting we have our lawyer sits in and advises the board on whether the direction we are taking is legal.
That being said do you not think that A.C.P.A. does not actively engage their legal experts when ever there is a new issue? I would think that they are working hard to represent the union in not only a legal way but one that is honest. To parallel something from the airline history if you remember Mr Milton was criticized by sitting on the sidelines while Mr Schwartz of ONEX was travelling cross-country telling the country that his plan would save the airlines. After careful planning Mr Milton and company thwarted his plans by staying in the background and doing their homework there by winning the game.
That being said yes there is a legal process under way which will determine the age 60 is discrimination or that a group of professionals can determine their collective future. The outcome which the courts will decide is whether collective bargaining decided by a majority is legal or the CHRT will have the day.
So where does this go next will a observant Orthodox Jew claim discrimination because of the requirement to observe Shabbat prohibits him or her working from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday? Alternatively, a devout Muslim claiming discrimination by being forced to serve alcohol or an unsafe food?
There are many other issues that you can look at but the one that is relevant is the age 60 one. To use an analogy we are on the space shuttle the solids are lit and that my friend is V1! So we should all take a deep breath walk to the fridge like I am going to do and have a very cold beer as we await the legal outcome in the late fall.
You mentioned previously about leaving the membership because you might be sued. I would talk to an "impartial" legal expert and I am sure you will find out is when you "cut yourself from the herd" you will make yourself a larger target as opposed to being in the herd. In other words you will find out when you are sued is when the writ is delivered to you and everything else is rhetoric.
Oh I forgot something to add from a personal perspective retirement is great and my only complaint so far is that there is not enough time in the day.
Just enjoy your career but make sure you develop outside interests early, never allow your persona be defined by what you put on when you go to work and remember there are only two things in life that are important your health and your family everything else is chump change my friend!
Oh yes that beer..................
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A330pilot : If electronic media would permit me to teleport you the coldest finest beer in the land, you'd have it before you pressed "send". That is the most balanced and intelligent post on this matter in a long time.
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What ACPA (with the approval of the majority of the membership) is trying to do is to continue to reward those who respect their part of the deal and leave at 60 (and not affecting/delaying the junior pilots ''normal'' career progression.
Those who want to fly untill they died will not be able to enjoy that benefit (SERP/Tophat).
There will be no discrimination due to age but an option for individual to chose.
Those who want to fly untill they died will not be able to enjoy that benefit (SERP/Tophat).
There will be no discrimination due to age but an option for individual to chose.
A reward (or incentive if you prefer) is something you give to someone that they didn't have before. An example that fits here is permitting someone to retire earlier than normal with no penalty, commonly used to prevent layoffs. Accepting that reward or not is entirely up to the individual, and not accepting it does not harm them in any way.
A penalty (or disincentive if you prefer) is when you take something away from someone that they already have. An example that fits here is denying pilots some benefit that they currently recieve along with everyone else, like pension benefits or seniority rights for example.
When you target a specific group over a certain age for this kind of penalty, that is called age discrimination.
ACPA and our pilot group will learn this distinction one way or the other.
A330pilotcanada:
In every legal dispute there are two sides or points of view, each with lawyers arguing that point of view. Only one side wins. In this issue ACPA is 180 degrees out from society and government which you know if you've been paying any attention at all. Almost a year ago the CHRT told ACPA in very specific terms how wrong they were consistent with Canadian attitudes toward mandatory retirement and age discrimination. There are several other procedings and complaints against ACPA now that are a direct result of ACPA's refusal to accept anything but their own interpretation.
Will you admit that ACPA was wrong when they get the hammer thrown at them, or will you continue to blame society and the individuals defending their (and your) right to not be discriminated against?
Also, thank you for the advice on life planning after I stop working. It seems you make the mistake a lot of others do thinking that people who wish to continue working past age 60 have no life outside of work. You will no doubt be relieved to know you're wrong.
ps. It wasn't me who mused about splitting myself from ACPA to avoid paying the price. I unfortunately know that we cannot do that, which is why I am trying so hard to get people to start using their head to make decisions instead of petty anger.
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Enginefire, your post is dripping in desperation matey. If your opponents would just give up and let you have your way you wouldn't have to inflict the financial beat-down. We get it.
Pay attention. It's not me that will be inflicting the financial beat-down. I am a junior pilot nowhere near retirement so I will be receiving the same beat-down you will.
By the way, it isn't the 60+ pilots who will be inflicting the beat-down either. ACPA is doing this entirely to themselves and us.
Good Afternoon Engine Fire Left:
I really do not know where to start on a response as it is apparent that my writing might have been too obtuse for you judging from your response. Yes you are absolutely right only one side wins a legal argument based on a preponderance of evidence presented to the courts. If indeed A.C.P.A. is wrong they will lose the case but let us allow the legal process to unfold in the time that it takes. Since we are on constitutional issues I more faith with the Supreme Court in the ultimate definition of a complaint than I am with a quasi legal tribunal such as the C.H.R.T. Yes they do good work but again I am more comfortable with seven senior jurists debating and deciding the argument than the political appointments in the C.H.R.T. Just consider it as checks and balances.
With regards to discrimination judging from the tenor of your post would you not consider that "if you have been paying any attention at all," "you will no doubt be relieved to know your wrong" as a form of intellectual discrimination? As no where in my previous post did I attack you in any way or be offensive towards you. To summarize my post there is a legal process in play let it run its course to a logical conclusion and than move on.
Oh yes the "no life outside of work issue" why I am enjoying retirement so much is that I had a very privileged career and I am now giving back to society through charity work what I have enjoyed in my professional work. If indeed there are people who want to work past 60 let them do it but after saying that "life is not a dress rehearsal" to me the worst thing in my dying moments is contemplate I could have done something meaningful. With your passion have you considered doing union work and working from with in to make a change to your work environment? Also if are trying to get people to change their mind you will find this forum the wrong constituency to use so bring your debate to the next L.E.C. meeting. If you are articulate enough you will have a motion passed that the M.E.C. will address.
I really do not know where to start on a response as it is apparent that my writing might have been too obtuse for you judging from your response. Yes you are absolutely right only one side wins a legal argument based on a preponderance of evidence presented to the courts. If indeed A.C.P.A. is wrong they will lose the case but let us allow the legal process to unfold in the time that it takes. Since we are on constitutional issues I more faith with the Supreme Court in the ultimate definition of a complaint than I am with a quasi legal tribunal such as the C.H.R.T. Yes they do good work but again I am more comfortable with seven senior jurists debating and deciding the argument than the political appointments in the C.H.R.T. Just consider it as checks and balances.
With regards to discrimination judging from the tenor of your post would you not consider that "if you have been paying any attention at all," "you will no doubt be relieved to know your wrong" as a form of intellectual discrimination? As no where in my previous post did I attack you in any way or be offensive towards you. To summarize my post there is a legal process in play let it run its course to a logical conclusion and than move on.
Oh yes the "no life outside of work issue" why I am enjoying retirement so much is that I had a very privileged career and I am now giving back to society through charity work what I have enjoyed in my professional work. If indeed there are people who want to work past 60 let them do it but after saying that "life is not a dress rehearsal" to me the worst thing in my dying moments is contemplate I could have done something meaningful. With your passion have you considered doing union work and working from with in to make a change to your work environment? Also if are trying to get people to change their mind you will find this forum the wrong constituency to use so bring your debate to the next L.E.C. meeting. If you are articulate enough you will have a motion passed that the M.E.C. will address.
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The CHRT is the body constituted to decide these very matters. Holding out hope that a higher authority will overturn what's already been decided, especially considering how provincial, territorial and now the federal government views it is unrealistic at best. In the case of ACPA it is irresponsible because they continue to systematically discriminate against more people every single month despite last August's ruling. I would have thought at the very least they would try to mitigate their potential liability until they've exhausted their last legal delaying tactic by asking guys if they want to retire, but instead they continue on as if the ruling never existed.
Is that smart?
Is that smart?