Air Canada Age 60 Limit To End
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CIRB assesses the legal direction that it should take on a particular issue, it makes its decision on the basis of sound legal principles that will withstand judicial scrutiny.
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Up early this AM, turned on the tube to catch up on the news of the day, seems that the rights folks are on a roll {1} Brother and sister sueing their school as the "Fitness test" infringed on their rights.{2} Women sueing over being ordered to show face prior to boarding a flight, infriged on her rights.{3} Kid sueing over no booze allowed in drivers under 21, his right to drink and drive being infringed .{4}Guy sueing over max PNDB noise regulation for his "Hawg", its his right to make as much noise as he wants, his rights you know. Seems like Ray wont be short of members/ paying customers if this bunch decide to fly for a living!
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In the mean time, people with life threatening health problems have to wait months for diagnostic testing, children in Haiti are robbed of their childhood and women in the middle east are murdered on accusations of adultry. Tell me with a straight face your plight is a human rights issue.
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Tell me with a straight face your plight is a human rights issue.
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What's the point of the JR on Nov 22-25 then ?
1) Stalling tactic to get a few more guys up the ladder?
2) Last ditch "Hail Mary" pass to the end zone?
3) Spend last remaining funds on Lawyer buddies before the **** hits the fan?
4) Misguided concept that they are following the true will of the membership?
5) ??????
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Enginefireleft: you say the samy will apply to us when we reach the age..... we will NEVER be affected the same way.... because we will not have seen the advancement up to the senior positions and then allowed to stay extra. There is only one group that would reap a windfall gain, and I suspect that you belong to that group. Please stop telling us that it would also benefit us later on. Just not true. Again, it is about career earnings, full stop. I'd have to work longer just to make the same, get it!
And have LESS time available to me to enjoy my retirement, get it!
Parc, Rishworth, Flightdeck..... all are looking for experienced commanders.
And have LESS time available to me to enjoy my retirement, get it!
Parc, Rishworth, Flightdeck..... all are looking for experienced commanders.
As well, I am getting more than a little tired of whiners bitching about how their career earnings will be effected. Close to 70% of the 320 FO's in Toronto could be making up to $30,000 more a year as an EMJ CA, but choose not to. The situation is even more dramatic the farther up the seniority ladder you go. Virtually all of the 330 FO's could be 320 Captains. Most of the 777 FO's could be 767 Captains. So let's give that tired refrain a rest shall we?
We must as a group and a union follow the rules, laws and regulations that are in place. Our contract does not in any way allow us not to. We have been told explicitly that mandatory retirement is discriminatory and therefore illegal. If our union and many of our members had simply taken a cursory look at what's going on in the rest of the country we wouldn't need to be told...but regardless we have been. We still don't get the picture. How stupid are we?
The union has abandoned their duty to provide fair representation to the over 60 pilots even though they are full members of the bargaining unit. If similar restrictions as what they proposed in the MOU were directed at any pilot under 60 you and everybody else would be screaming bloody murder, and for good reason. They are required to provide fair and equal representation to every member, not just the ones they like or the ones who think they are the majority.
Our members and union are determined to learn the hard way what the laws and regulations say. It is shameful that it has to come to this, because long after the people making these disastrous decisions are gone we will be paying the price.
I support the idea (as does the entire nation) that forced retirement due to age is discriminatory which is why I support the 60+ guys. I don't care what their motivation is. Having a union background myself I take very seriously the obligation of a union to provide fair and equal representation, and I will be the first in line to take them to court for their determination to not do so.
You and many others may not see why now, but eventually you will.
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You guys get your panties in a knot pretty fast. The 2 pilots in question are being re-instated the only place the airline has room between bids. Both ACPA and AC are doing this so as not to further delay their re-instatment. Secondly, the CHRT said age 60 was not a BFOR in their opinion. The Federal court will have it's say in November on the bigger matter. I wouldn't count your money yet. In the mean time I guess the play-book is to keep tossing enough merde against the wall in hopes some of it will stick. Maybe you guys can coordinate a massive "slip and fall" injury outside ACPA HQ and sue all the members for damages.
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Ray, is there any way a typical ACPA member can protect himself from the coming settlement. Can the Pilots "get out" of ACPA and get a new bargaining unit? Are retired pilots who have no say in this fiasco vulnerable? Can ACPA escape it's potential liabilities by "dissolving" or somehow ceasing to exist? Ray, I recognize that you may not want to discuss this publicly ... does anyone else have any ideas as to how ACPA and its members can cut and run from this fiasco? Does any one else have any idea how the typical line Pilot might free himself from the merde ACPA has gotten him into? If ACPA says "We're sorry, we were wrong, we welcome all Pilots back into their respective slots", is there any chance that the wronged Pilots would drop their request for damages? (I'm not talking about Vilven or Kelly who have specifically already won damages) In short, is there a mutually acceptable way to end this?
What goes around come around - or don't get mad get even.
There is a silver lining in every dark cloud.
Unions in general, ACPA is a good example, have a long history of screwing new members to the benefit of older, or rather more senior members.
The current entry level salaries at AC being Exhibit A. 40 K a year to fly a jet. That is a royal screwing.
The newbies have always put up with this on the grounds of well I'll get the brass ring someday, plus the lack of numbers to really change it.
(There might be an interesting age discrimination case there if you think about it)
Take away the incredible incentives to being at the top part of the list and suddenly the entire game changes.
A way out of this is to create a contract with salaries based on years of service, (years of service, not age so this gets around discrimination charges) not seniority based equipment bids. Likewise a fair bid line on schedules etc. Flatten the salary at 20 years service and don't load the pension to final years of service. Make everyone fly their share of holidays and weekends and lots of people will bail and open up slots.
If the young ones are going to held back from getting that top number there is a very good reason for them to change the contract to make being a top number less desirable. That is what I would do. It certainly is smarter that beating your head against a wall while acquiring legal debt and liabilities.
One more reason for AC pilots to start thinking long term of the reality of the law in Canada and not going down in flames on emotional roller coaster of "It's not fair, it always being that way"
Unions in general, ACPA is a good example, have a long history of screwing new members to the benefit of older, or rather more senior members.
The current entry level salaries at AC being Exhibit A. 40 K a year to fly a jet. That is a royal screwing.
The newbies have always put up with this on the grounds of well I'll get the brass ring someday, plus the lack of numbers to really change it.
(There might be an interesting age discrimination case there if you think about it)
Take away the incredible incentives to being at the top part of the list and suddenly the entire game changes.
A way out of this is to create a contract with salaries based on years of service, (years of service, not age so this gets around discrimination charges) not seniority based equipment bids. Likewise a fair bid line on schedules etc. Flatten the salary at 20 years service and don't load the pension to final years of service. Make everyone fly their share of holidays and weekends and lots of people will bail and open up slots.
If the young ones are going to held back from getting that top number there is a very good reason for them to change the contract to make being a top number less desirable. That is what I would do. It certainly is smarter that beating your head against a wall while acquiring legal debt and liabilities.
One more reason for AC pilots to start thinking long term of the reality of the law in Canada and not going down in flames on emotional roller coaster of "It's not fair, it always being that way"
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Over 60 aka fly till ya die........
Vic777,
Last time I checked you are ACPA....so if you want change than I suggest you get on a ferry and attend meetings! (Cause most do not) When are our 3000 plus members going to understand that the only people who can affect change are ourselves. That is one of my problems with Ray's plight........he is retired! For decades he enjoyed the fruits of our system and now he and a greedy bunch of retirees or those at the top are trying to force change.............
Change is coming but it should be by the membership for the membership...... not a bunch of old miserable retirees who don't have a life and need to dawn a uniform just to wake up in the morning.........
Last time I checked Vic777 our membership voted to have status quo........so if you have the time before you hit 60 then pass a motion to have a new IVR vote to see if the membership wants to continue to fight against over 60. When 51 % of our membership votes for change than I will accept over 60...until then I am all for fighting it tooth and nail. If you run out of time then I am sure Ray will be all too willing to add your name to the list of former members who feel the need to sue their colleagues.
You ask if there is anything else an ACPA member can do to protect once self, well you could always quit and join Parc aviation. But I can tell you this much ahead of time the contract you will sign with them will not be opened and changed at your discretion! You will live and die by that contract............ Oh yeah and 99% of the contracts you have to be under the age of 57 at signing and expire when you are 60…………sound familiar?
Parc Aviation Recruitment and Resourcing
ALPA did not get JAZZ the last gains in bargaining, the 97% unified pilot group did.
Cormac Ward
YVR 767
Last time I checked you are ACPA....so if you want change than I suggest you get on a ferry and attend meetings! (Cause most do not) When are our 3000 plus members going to understand that the only people who can affect change are ourselves. That is one of my problems with Ray's plight........he is retired! For decades he enjoyed the fruits of our system and now he and a greedy bunch of retirees or those at the top are trying to force change.............
Change is coming but it should be by the membership for the membership...... not a bunch of old miserable retirees who don't have a life and need to dawn a uniform just to wake up in the morning.........
Last time I checked Vic777 our membership voted to have status quo........so if you have the time before you hit 60 then pass a motion to have a new IVR vote to see if the membership wants to continue to fight against over 60. When 51 % of our membership votes for change than I will accept over 60...until then I am all for fighting it tooth and nail. If you run out of time then I am sure Ray will be all too willing to add your name to the list of former members who feel the need to sue their colleagues.
You ask if there is anything else an ACPA member can do to protect once self, well you could always quit and join Parc aviation. But I can tell you this much ahead of time the contract you will sign with them will not be opened and changed at your discretion! You will live and die by that contract............ Oh yeah and 99% of the contracts you have to be under the age of 57 at signing and expire when you are 60…………sound familiar?
Parc Aviation Recruitment and Resourcing
ALPA did not get JAZZ the last gains in bargaining, the 97% unified pilot group did.
Cormac Ward
YVR 767
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Pitotman, well said, I am retired,{Still flying my own twin and very well paid for it, well enough to train deserving kids and pay them} and have outlived most of my course mates.What I find a bit strange is how one side in this discussion harp on about "its the law, so must be obeyed" but ignore the fact that we live in a democracy, thus surely in such a society the will of majority should hold sway. I often didnt like what CALPA did {Im pre ACAPA} but in our society the majority should call the shots.I know this will bring forth a long ramble from one side or the other, so be it, but if majority rule is to be ignored by various elite commitees working outside of the electoral process then we are indeed heading for a society which will be run by those who think they are the keepers of our nation, not those elected by a majority to run things . As an example, I would hang Robert Picton in the village square,{and sell tickets to cover the cost of his trial} but the majority of Canadians dont want capital punishment, thus I go along with the view of the majority, thats the way it should work, not having seventy out of three thousand calling the shots. Thats the view from the retirment bench.
Last edited by clunckdriver; 7th Aug 2010 at 22:43.
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Vic777,
Last time I checked you are ACPA....
Last time I checked you are ACPA....
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so if you have the time before you hit 60 then pass a motion to have a new IVR vote to see if the membership wants to continue to fight against over 60. When 51 % of our membership votes for change than I will accept over 60...
This week ACPA received information that a group of pilots represented by Raymond Hall have filed a Duty of Fair Representation complaint against ACPA under the Canada Labour Code concerning our response to the retirement at Age 60 issues. Section 37 of the Code provides that a union shall not act in a manner that is arbitrary, discriminatory or in bad faith in the representation of any of the employees in the bargaining unit with respect to their rights under the collective agreement that is applicable to them. We anticipated this tactic and welcome the opportunity to respond before the Canada Industrial Relations Board. We do not believe the complaint has any merit.
If anybody can provide a rational explanation for this irrational, divisive and self-destructive act let's hear it.
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Originally Posted by pitotman
That is one of my problems with Ray's plight........he is retired! For decades he enjoyed the fruits of our system and now he and a greedy bunch of retirees or those at the top are trying to force change.............
Not just dumb. Stupid! And you have the ignorance and temerity to blame the over-60 group for your own stupidity! No wonder your union is in trouble.
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If anybody can provide a rational explanation for this irrational, divisive and self-destructive act let's hear it.
That's an easy one. Because there is a difference in opinion both legal and otherwise. The CHRT doesn't make the laws in this country. Their position is going to be judged by a higher entity in the food chain. Your lawyer knows that but are you guys prepared for the water-down conditions upon which you will be able to fly past 60 ?
You guys are trying in vain to convince all opposed to your position to quit and accept your assertion that you're going to take us to the cleaners. I guess that is you best chance at an outright victory so I can't blame you for trying. Give your fellow pilots and ACPA some credit for seeing through this staged hissy fit.
That's an easy one. Because there is a difference in opinion both legal and otherwise. The CHRT doesn't make the laws in this country. Their position is going to be judged by a higher entity in the food chain. Your lawyer knows that but are you guys prepared for the water-down conditions upon which you will be able to fly past 60 ?
You guys are trying in vain to convince all opposed to your position to quit and accept your assertion that you're going to take us to the cleaners. I guess that is you best chance at an outright victory so I can't blame you for trying. Give your fellow pilots and ACPA some credit for seeing through this staged hissy fit.
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Not just dumb. Stupid! And you have the ignorance to blame the over-60 group for your own stupidity! No wonder your union is in trouble.
Nice one Overunder, are you all just one person with multi aliases or were you all coached to stoke and scare the unwilling as a part of your "legal" strategy ?
Nice one Overunder, are you all just one person with multi aliases or were you all coached to stoke and scare the unwilling as a part of your "legal" strategy ?
Good Evening over under or should I refer to you as Ray767's alter ego?
According to your profile you are 29 but your level of articulation is beyond your chronological age!
I would enjoy reading your curriculum vitae to see what your interests in this subject are?
What are your aviation credentials? Main line? Feeder? Corporate? General Aviation?
Let us know we are all curious on this one...
According to your profile you are 29 but your level of articulation is beyond your chronological age!
I would enjoy reading your curriculum vitae to see what your interests in this subject are?
What are your aviation credentials? Main line? Feeder? Corporate? General Aviation?
Let us know we are all curious on this one...
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Mr. Ward,
I would suggest you have strong drink and chill out. Change is going to happen wether you like it or not. Your suggestion about Parc Avation et al, you are right, on the property by 57 or so but also on the property the chances of working past 60 are pretty good. Yes, I tried various options to work past 60 but the world recession of 08 and 09 kinda killed it.
Also, you or anyone else in Air Canada have no idea about my life and what I want to do with it. I don't tell you how to live your life please don't tell me how live mine. You can pass this on the rest of the crews you fly.
Phil
ps We won't have beers when I come back!
e & oe
I would suggest you have strong drink and chill out. Change is going to happen wether you like it or not. Your suggestion about Parc Avation et al, you are right, on the property by 57 or so but also on the property the chances of working past 60 are pretty good. Yes, I tried various options to work past 60 but the world recession of 08 and 09 kinda killed it.
Also, you or anyone else in Air Canada have no idea about my life and what I want to do with it. I don't tell you how to live your life please don't tell me how live mine. You can pass this on the rest of the crews you fly.
Phil
ps We won't have beers when I come back!
e & oe