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Emirates vs. Air Canada

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Emirates vs. Air Canada

Old 25th May 2010, 07:39
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blah blah blah...
You came knockin... trying to sell... didnt have anything to offer in return... tried to threaten us instead of woo us (really smart)... we slammed door in your face and now your crying in your soup.

You can measure metrics all you want... we don't care.

Your not getting any more flights. Daily to UAE is enough. Just as I expected. You want more seats? Use the 380.

This is old news.
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Old 25th May 2010, 07:45
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Do you live in Dubai or Thunder Bay?
There are labour laws in Dubai, there are stories in the paper all the time here about somebody sueing an employer, and several dismissed pilots have sued Emirates. I'm not a lawyer so I'm not going to list comparative differences, but to come on here and state that there are no labour laws is simply not true. That there are no unions is a much more valid point to make.
Of course Dubai airport charges landing fees, do you think they'd give it away for free?? And yes, Emirates pays them too. They just published part of a document they're preparing to address these common myths in the industry in the company paper. Emirates is one of the most profitable businesses Dubai owns and as we all know, Dubai needs money, so they're going to siphon off as much as they can from the goose that laid the golden egg, including landing fees.
So every airline that comes into Canada pays all their ground staff the same as AC?? You must be joking! Not even WJ does that!! How about Pakistan Int'l Air? Air India?
Give it up guys, your argument is weak and hollow. AC will not perish if EK gets a few more slots a week at YYZ.
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Old 25th May 2010, 10:38
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The arguments that the Canada-UAE traffic is adequately served by the current 6 flights per week agreement is rather weak on so many points.

Firstly, if the market has to be proven to exist before frequencies are granted, how will new routes ever be established? Have AC never pioneered a new destination and grown a route themselves? (remember the movie: "Build it and they will come")

Another point that has already been stated is that if EK were to get additional frequencies then AC would see a drop in their transatlantic traffic due to them picking up fewer connections from the Subcontinent and Asia. Doesn't this same point-to-point argument suggest that if AC is picking up many connecting passengers in European ports, that it has too many Canada to Europe flights? How many passengers originate in the UK (for example) and are destined for Canada only? The point-to-point argument would not support UK-USA traffic via Canada. Who can determine using this argument which airline should fly international connecting passengers? If a passenger flew on Air India to the UK and then British Airways to YYZ have BA just "stolen" a passenger/revenue/jobs from Canada? Why haven't the Canadian Government been onto the UK CAA about this?

EK has over 10 flights per day to the UK and continues to expand there. Both BA and Virgin also fly to DXB, so competition is alive and well. As most of Emirates UK traffic is also heading further east, the consumer has the choice to fly LHR-DXB-BOM, or take AI, BA, Jet Airways etc... LHR-BOM direct. The customer wins.

If AC is convinced there is no YYZ-DXB traffic and are afraid of losing the Asian market they should offer passengers the choice of BOM-YYZ, KHI-YYZ or DEL-YYZ direct (they've got the 200LRs that could do it). They are unfortunately stuck with the Star Alliance and so will not offer the flights that passengers want so find it less risky to adopt an uncompetitive stance.

I think the response from the UAE regarding the Canadians using (or not) the UAE military base was despicable. I would not even try to defend this, nor would I try to suggest that any airline that would try to compete with a Canadian airline should somehow live up to a certain standard when it comes to unions/salaries/fares etc. I am sure that AC staff at the Caribbean and South American destinations are not protected and compensated by Canadian standards. I also believe that some routes charge more per ASM than others. It is often a case of supply and demand. To suggest that EK charges for YYZ-SYD should more resemble the AC fare could be referred to as price fixing.
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Old 25th May 2010, 11:07
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Excellent post Townie, probably the smartest one on this topic yet, except passengers aren't stolen, they're 'poached'. I guess it sounds more sinister that way. It also presumes passengers either don't or shouldn't have a choice of carrier. Sounds like communism to me.
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Old 28th May 2010, 13:57
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Here's some comments from Maurice Flannigan of EK:

Next up in Flanagan’s firing line is Air Canada and the Canadian government, which he believes is stuck in the past.

“They are still there politically in the 1960s. I can’t understand that. The market is there for double daily Toronto and double daily to Vancouver and certainly daily, going to double, to Calgary.

“We are [only] allowed three a week to Toronto and that is all protection to Air Canada [but] what good has that done to Air Canada? Look at the state they are in,” he says.

“I know of no other country that thinks in those terms. It is to protect Air Canada, I can’t see any other reason. Just open the skies and let us in — that is the answer. It will be great benefit to the Canadian economy.”

As part of its lobbying to the Canadian government, Emirates released a study in March concluding that Canada could reap economic benefits of around $466m a year and create 2,800 jobs if it was given the flying slots it is demanding.

However, Air Canada has accused Emirates of wanting to “flood” the Canadian routes in order to divert passengers through Dubai. Calin Rovinescu, CEO of Air Canada, the country’s biggest airline, said that allowing Emirates to increase its capacity would be “severely damaging” to Canadian airports and airlines.



The rest of the article can be found here:

Plane talking - Transportation - ArabianBusiness.com

Flame Away!!
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Old 14th Jul 2010, 19:21
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"European airlines determining how to counter growing Emirates. With Emirates expanding rapidly and showing no sign of slowing down, European airlines are looking at how to counter a carrier that has become a formidable threat.



Dubai International reported a 13.6% leap in passengers in May to 3.7 million. IATA recently noted that Middle East airlines "continue to post strong growth with connecting traffic through their hubs." It is that traffic in particular that concerns European carriers worried that growing numbers of passengers will choose EK connections through Dubai over flights offered by EU-based airlines.



KLM CEO Peter Hartman said he expects EK will face "more and more reluctance [from governments] to grant traffic rights." According to the Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation, Hartman told Dow Jones that governments in Europe and other parts of the world are likely to become increasingly unwilling to accommodate the next phase of the carrier's expansion.



CAPA pointed to recent reports that the French government has rejected requests to grant UAE-based airlines more landing slots at Paris Charles de Gaulle. EK, Etihad and Air Arabia were seeking a total of seven new slots, but French authorities reportedly agreed to just one new service.



British Airways CEO Willie Walsh recently stated outright that Emirates' expansion represents a threat to long-haul European carriers. "It’s definitely going to have an impact on the business," he said. (Source: Air Transport World)"


No to EK!
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Old 15th Jul 2010, 13:10
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Code:
 
No to EK!
What is this, some catchphrase now, like just say no to drugs?

Yes to protectionism!

Where is this thinking coming from? What if every country thought this about the company you fly for?

I honestly don't know how legacy carriers from europe and north america are still in business. The taxes and costs of running such companies with union labour forces must make it extremely difficult to turn a profit. Of course they're afraid of EK and other middle east airlines, and of course they can't compete head to head on cost or product. They should focus on how they're going to survive the new reality rather than trying to put the genie back in the bottle.
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Old 15th Jul 2010, 19:22
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They could also hire 3/4 of their workforce from the subcontinent and pay them peanuts, least then they could compete with Ek on an even footing.....
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Old 15th Jul 2010, 19:44
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And where will all these middle Eastern outfits be when the oil runs out ?{as it will, long before Canada does, we are in fact going to be the "Blue Eyed Arabs}The Ex Pats will depart the fix and the locals will be right back where they were during the time of Lawrence, this is not a racist position, just having spent a fair bit of time involved with this part of the globe one can see it coming, and when it does there wont be any of their aircraft flying around the Globe, at least the sandbox is a great climate to park aircraft in!
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Old 16th Jul 2010, 00:14
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Link to full article referenced in Post #88 by KingAir:

European airlines determining how to counter growing Emirates | ATW Online
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Old 16th Jul 2010, 20:18
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Clunckdriver,
You are one of the most clever guys on here, but I need to make a couple of points about your post.
Where will they be when the oil runs out? What do you mean? Where will ANY airline be when the oil runs out? Jets flying on peanut oil? If its canola oil, Canada's in good shape. Or at least Monsanto is.
If that's not what you mean, then you mean that oil profits are what are feeding the growth of middle east airlines. In the case of Emirates, Dubai has barely any oil, Abu Dhabi has most of it and they have Ethihad. That's why Dubai has built up so many other things regarding property, toursim, and Emirates, precisely because they don't have very much oil in the first place. And in the second place, Emirates is self funding and profitable for almost 25 years. Can AC say the same? And if they can't, is it Emirates' fault?
AC's problems began LOOOOOONG before EK started flying 3 times per week into YYZ, and will continue regardless of how many people EK does or doesn't bring into Canada.
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Old 17th Jul 2010, 00:24
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How are other airlines to compete against one that pays less then half the labour costs? EK's wages are horrible even for pilots. If you want to bring down the profession keep it in your own country.
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Old 17th Jul 2010, 01:20
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Actually the pilot wages at EK are reasonable, certainly better than 90% of the pilot jobs in Canada and they pay for housing and other benefits. Mind you you're working some pretty silly schedules at the moment for it, you have to put up with the whole "you're just lucky to be here management",and a hundered more things that can drive you crazy in the sandbox. Pilot pay at EK isn't the best, but IMHO it's not one of the big issues there. There are a hundred companies in Canada that are doing far more to bring down the pilot profession pay wise than EK. Wish all canadian companies paid EK wages and benefits, then i think you'd find EK able to fill a double daily YYZ 380 full of expat canadians heading home.

Now if you want to talk non management/pilot wages you can be sure that the guy at A/C loading catering or bags is probably making more in a month than his counterpart at EK does in a year.
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Old 17th Jul 2010, 20:49
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How are other airlines to compete against one that pays less then half the labour costs
The same way all the carriers that have to compete against airlines that operate under chapter 11 and are being allowed to restructure whilst bankrupt.
The European carriers (some of them) "love" the fact that North American carriers could compete on routes even though they were under protection from bankruptcy.
Some airlines don't have that luxury. What do you do?

So Air Canada doesn' have the luxury against Emirates to cost compete. How unfair. How many airlines say the same against Air Canada?

Even after all this time does anyone in the YYZ area want to comment on Air Canada against Porter at YTZ. Large carrier with a significant cost advantage trying to muscle in on territory that according to some does not have the passenger volume to support more than one airline.
Good for Canadian jobs and aviation eh? If Porter fold because of Air Canada gaining access to routes then where do all those pilots and ground staff go?

If you are against Emirates then you should be against Air Canada going after the island airport again. No difference in my opinion.
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Old 17th Jul 2010, 20:53
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Oh and as regards to

No to EK!
Didn't the US recently come up with "Buy American". The Canadians LOVED that one.
Tis a slippery slope you are on with a flat out NO.
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Old 18th Jul 2010, 00:45
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Good wages? Just over 100,000 for the average captain and 60,000 for the average first officer to fly 777's, 380's and 340's? Those wages are horrible, less then half of Air Canada's and almost on par with Jazz.

Oh ya, I forgot you don't pay tax. And why is that? We (oil consumers) are subsidizing you. I've been writing my MP for some time on how I think its unfair Expats are leaving, not paying tax in Canada then coming back. If you want the infrastructure when you return you should be paying for it now. Either that or force the Expats to hand in their passports and citizenship. How many of you would leave Canada if you had to give up your citizenship? Speaking of a slippery slope.

Next point, the airlines in Canada have to compete against you..and your wages are being subsidized by us. I can't see one reason to let any airline from your region come to this Country unless its on an even playing field. Ek wants more flights, how about starting a domestic program? How full would those planes be? There is nothing reciprical about your mirage.

For the person who made fun of taxes and unions in Canada. Two questions for you. Who did you vote for last election in the UAE? Could you walk into your CP's office and call them a C.S. without getting fired?
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Old 18th Jul 2010, 05:43
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If you are going to try and argue a point, at least try and make it informed.

Good wages? Just over 100,000 for the average captain and 60,000 for the average first officer to fly 777's, 380's and 340's? Those wages are horrible, less then half of Air Canada's and almost on par with Jazz.
F/Os are at $82,000CAD base (take home) + flying pay + housing etc.

Oh ya, I forgot you don't pay tax. And why is that? We (oil consumers) are subsidizing you. I've been writing my MP for some time on how I think its unfair Expats are leaving, not paying tax in Canada then coming back. If you want the infrastructure when you return you should be paying for it now. Either that or force the Expats to hand in their passports and citizenship. How many of you would leave Canada if you had to give up your citizenship? Speaking of a slippery slope.
What can I say? Yeesh!!

Next point, the airlines in Canada
have to compete against you..and your wages are being subsidized by us. I can't see one reason to let any airline from your region come to this Country unless its on an even playing field. Ek wants more flights, how about starting a domestic program? How full would those planes be? There is nothing reciprical about your mirage.
I take it you mean a domestic service here in the UAE? Have you looked at a map? Seen the size of the country? It would be like having Air Canada or WS run a sched between YVR and YXX!! One could argue the regional flights are 'domestic': 1 - 3 hr flights to neighbouring Saudi, Bahrain, Doha, Kuwait etc.

For the person who made fun of taxes and unions in Canada. Two questions for you. Who did you vote for last election in the UAE? Could you walk into your CP's office and call them a C.S. without getting fired?
You should be fired for that! Unions have often lost sight of which battles to wage. Defending that kind of insubordination just reflects badly on the union and the rest of your colleagues.
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Old 18th Jul 2010, 05:51
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Don't worry when the oil is going to run out clunk, you'll be dead by then
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Old 18th Jul 2010, 05:52
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We all call our CP a CSer (Schwanzblasen) on pprune, saves a drive to HQ.

I cant defend EK on alot of things but we get paid the same if we are above average or average and its substantially more than those numbers.

If you think you subsidize us by being an oil consumer, ride your bike to work. EK subsidizes Dubai. My wage is not subsidized by you unless your a customer (thanks if you are), its subsidized by 442 pax crammed into a 777 300ER going back and forth to MNL 2X a day. Same for LOS, ADD, JNB CPT, BKK, BHX etc. The flights are full and they aint cheap.

Competition between airlines from different countries will always be unbalanced. I am sure AC spends more on de-icing in one day than EK does in a year.

Expats sacrafice by going away from home to work and there has to be a benefit, be it for better pay and tax reasons. I dont know anyone who would be stupid enough to renounce their citizenship. When I return, I will pay my share again and use the infrastructure accordingly. I sure as hell have paid more than my share before I left. I pay cash in Canada now for any services. I dont have kids, so why should I pay taxes for schools in Canada?

Again, not defending alot of things EK/UAE do. Including their BS threats but some of your arguments are wrong.
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Old 18th Jul 2010, 12:23
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GMC 1500, sorry, didnt see your post, what I was refering to is the projections that the Middle East is consuming its oil reserves across the region at a rate that the decline in prodution and revenues is sychronized , unlike the new fields in the Falklands, Grand Banks, and all the other fields waiting for the drill rigs . When the decline takes place it will pull the rug from under the prosperity in this region, will the West then export oil to the region? Seems doubtfull given the present political positions around the worldl If you want some interesting reading on the subject there are many books out these days, as a Canadian, "Stupid To The Last Drop", is a great read, all about the Tarr Sands mess. Sec 3, given the average longevity of my gene pool, I might just see the begining of the end of the oil flow in the Middle East, its a race between the oil running out and my pension fund!Regards, Clunck.

Last edited by clunckdriver; 18th Jul 2010 at 12:28. Reason: Answering Swc 3
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