Emirates vs. Air Canada
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"Sorry 76, but we- Canada...not just Air Canada are not fools and we don't see it your way."
A little bold presuming to speak for all of Canada, don't you think?
The fact there is an ongoing debate about this indicates not all of Canada `sees it your way`.
Let`s not forget as mentioned in a previous post, AC is not fighting this alone: it is the Star Alliance wanting to call the shots as much as anything else. It would be naive to think their interests are purely about what is `good`for Canada.
As far as a `level playing field`is concerned, that is really saying it is level when AC decides it is. Of course, at that point it would almost certainly be tilted the other way.
A little bold presuming to speak for all of Canada, don't you think?
The fact there is an ongoing debate about this indicates not all of Canada `sees it your way`.
Let`s not forget as mentioned in a previous post, AC is not fighting this alone: it is the Star Alliance wanting to call the shots as much as anything else. It would be naive to think their interests are purely about what is `good`for Canada.
As far as a `level playing field`is concerned, that is really saying it is level when AC decides it is. Of course, at that point it would almost certainly be tilted the other way.
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WXweek...good posts..
in regards to
That statement is true BUT Air Canada has a huge advantage on being the largest carrier in Canada and has used this competitive advantage in the past to dubious effect.
The "too big to fail" argument could be used. Air Canada has gone bankrupt in the past...that is acknowledged. It was resurrected (invested in no doubt because of the monopoly it has in some areas) despite being poorly run, and then allowed to compete again on routes against airlines that had not run into the same "financial issues" Air Canada did.
Exactly. Are they playing by the rules of competition or are they playing their own rules?
Probably loads. However that question can be asked of any major airline at any of their home airports.
555Orange
You keep talking about competition but this debate seems to be about the lack of it on the Canadian side.
Do those plans include maybe serving the growing Indian population in the GTA. The market is there...you don't even need statistics to know that...just fly to Europe on any carrier and look at the makeup of the flight (from YYZ).
The whole point of aviation is to fly people to where they want to go. "Plans" have to include that.
When I arrived in YYZ 5 years ago the GTAA's grand plan was for Toronto to become a hub to rival New York and maybe siphon some traffic off JFK/EWR ie competition. How would you do that? By having a network of flights that get people where they want to go.
Now Air Canada are restrained by a lot of the points that have been mentioned in this debate, and yes Emirates are able to operate at a considerable cost advantage. However...your future plans aren't going to go very far if you just think "canadian interests" as you will never be able to operate outside that box.
Just out of interest...you mention the China/Canada routes. The only Chinese carrier to fly into Pearson is Cathay (although EVA air are starting up..technically Taiwan) whilst Air Canada serves Hong Kong, Beijing and Shanghai.
Why don't Air China or China Eastern fly to Toronto? Is there not enough demand.
Same with JAL and ANA to Tokyo. Air Canada fly there but not the reciprocal.
Curious if it is a demand issue or an agreement issue.
in regards to
In short AC is none of the things you allege. Not government owned, no favorable financing rates for asset purchase/leasing, no break on airport rents/landing fees/air navigation fees etc in it's home country
The "too big to fail" argument could be used. Air Canada has gone bankrupt in the past...that is acknowledged. It was resurrected (invested in no doubt because of the monopoly it has in some areas) despite being poorly run, and then allowed to compete again on routes against airlines that had not run into the same "financial issues" Air Canada did.
some would say it has never lost it's government bureaucratic mentality but that's another story.
The follow-up question might be what kind of favorable economics does emirates enjoy at its home hub
555Orange
You keep talking about competition but this debate seems to be about the lack of it on the Canadian side.
We have interests to protect, and future plans to consider
The whole point of aviation is to fly people to where they want to go. "Plans" have to include that.
When I arrived in YYZ 5 years ago the GTAA's grand plan was for Toronto to become a hub to rival New York and maybe siphon some traffic off JFK/EWR ie competition. How would you do that? By having a network of flights that get people where they want to go.
Now Air Canada are restrained by a lot of the points that have been mentioned in this debate, and yes Emirates are able to operate at a considerable cost advantage. However...your future plans aren't going to go very far if you just think "canadian interests" as you will never be able to operate outside that box.
Just out of interest...you mention the China/Canada routes. The only Chinese carrier to fly into Pearson is Cathay (although EVA air are starting up..technically Taiwan) whilst Air Canada serves Hong Kong, Beijing and Shanghai.
Why don't Air China or China Eastern fly to Toronto? Is there not enough demand.
Same with JAL and ANA to Tokyo. Air Canada fly there but not the reciprocal.
Curious if it is a demand issue or an agreement issue.
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Canada is doing its part and its best to be competitive, as well as protect the better work conditions and civil liberties that we have at the same time. It costs a bit extra to be an Airline in a country like that. So, on scale we have to place a measure of protection. Air Canada cannot compete against the likes of Emirates that is state owned and largely has no unilateral labor laws and employs a massive virtual slave labor force, and for the most part doesn't have to have financial responsibility. Sure, its easy to take over the aviation world if your Daddy pays for it. Problem is Air Canada HAS to balance its books and doesn't have Daddy to pay the debts if it doesn't. Don't tell me the Gov't will bail out AC. If it would, then AC would not have been in Bankruptcy protection 2 times already.
Furthermore, there is a-lot more competition out there against Emirates flying to Toronto than just Air Canada. You mentioned a few already. Cathay serves the Indian market from Pearson and Vancouver. Air China doesn't have a direct to Toronto, but Air Canada does. Air China serves the Vancouver segment. Air China greatly serves the Indian market. Just go and look at their website. EVA and China Air and Singapore etc all greatly serve Asia and India. Emirates "virtual" 480 million increase in business to Canada is only an attempt at taking a piece of this market away from others. As your colleague correctly said, there is not enough end service market from Canada to UAE. It is mostly flow through to Asia and India. Therefore, Emirates increasing will only take capacity from others and put it on their books. The market is well served already and I believe should there be any spare capacity that Air Canada probably would want to serve it if at all possible.
Regarding the airlines you mentioned: Cathay is not Chinese. Its primarily British. Ie: Swire Group with a minority Chinese holding, mainly political due to the British rule handover. China Air and EVA are not Chinese, they are Taiwanese, but the differentiation from where we stand is similar. They serve India and SE Asia greatly and would also be competing against Emirates for this traffic.
Emirates and Etihad have a good frequency to Toronto already. They just want "more". I don't believe it should get it unless it can guarantee some mutual benefit. Not smoke an mirrors estimate of robbing other markets followed by veiled threats. That will never win you favor in the offices of the Canadian gov't. In fact it probably did quite the opposite and is actually very foolish in my opinion. 76driver doesn't see that. He professes to be on the Canadian side, but then supported that quite honestly stupid and unconciousable negotiating tactic. Perhaps the strategy should have been the opposite, lower rent on the Canadian base in return for an additional weekly flight? Now that would be mature negotiating and might have won the route along with worldly favor.
Just my 2 cents worth! It was your benefit to lose. You just had to come to the table with the right offer.
Furthermore, there is a-lot more competition out there against Emirates flying to Toronto than just Air Canada. You mentioned a few already. Cathay serves the Indian market from Pearson and Vancouver. Air China doesn't have a direct to Toronto, but Air Canada does. Air China serves the Vancouver segment. Air China greatly serves the Indian market. Just go and look at their website. EVA and China Air and Singapore etc all greatly serve Asia and India. Emirates "virtual" 480 million increase in business to Canada is only an attempt at taking a piece of this market away from others. As your colleague correctly said, there is not enough end service market from Canada to UAE. It is mostly flow through to Asia and India. Therefore, Emirates increasing will only take capacity from others and put it on their books. The market is well served already and I believe should there be any spare capacity that Air Canada probably would want to serve it if at all possible.
Regarding the airlines you mentioned: Cathay is not Chinese. Its primarily British. Ie: Swire Group with a minority Chinese holding, mainly political due to the British rule handover. China Air and EVA are not Chinese, they are Taiwanese, but the differentiation from where we stand is similar. They serve India and SE Asia greatly and would also be competing against Emirates for this traffic.
Emirates and Etihad have a good frequency to Toronto already. They just want "more". I don't believe it should get it unless it can guarantee some mutual benefit. Not smoke an mirrors estimate of robbing other markets followed by veiled threats. That will never win you favor in the offices of the Canadian gov't. In fact it probably did quite the opposite and is actually very foolish in my opinion. 76driver doesn't see that. He professes to be on the Canadian side, but then supported that quite honestly stupid and unconciousable negotiating tactic. Perhaps the strategy should have been the opposite, lower rent on the Canadian base in return for an additional weekly flight? Now that would be mature negotiating and might have won the route along with worldly favor.
Just my 2 cents worth! It was your benefit to lose. You just had to come to the table with the right offer.
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Finally someone that knows what their talking about and not only bitches with their eyes closed.
Thanks Six7driver.
Plus Gentlemen, may I had that regarding "Camp Mirage" the base is called in the U.A.E. If you look at any new map of Dubai you can see that the "DubaiLand" attraction park is going to fill up the space that the base is occuping in the near futur.
So really the "threath" thing is just a compositioncoming from Ac supportes/lobbyist as this base is due to close anyway...
And instead of "closing" the Canadian airpace to protect jobs I think they should let more overfligths and collect the money from it. As well as the landing fees, taxes on the tickets sales etc...
And please guys...who are you talking about when you talk of "high paying jobs in aviation" ?? not fooling me for sure...
;-)
Thanks Six7driver.
Plus Gentlemen, may I had that regarding "Camp Mirage" the base is called in the U.A.E. If you look at any new map of Dubai you can see that the "DubaiLand" attraction park is going to fill up the space that the base is occuping in the near futur.
So really the "threath" thing is just a compositioncoming from Ac supportes/lobbyist as this base is due to close anyway...
And instead of "closing" the Canadian airpace to protect jobs I think they should let more overfligths and collect the money from it. As well as the landing fees, taxes on the tickets sales etc...
And please guys...who are you talking about when you talk of "high paying jobs in aviation" ?? not fooling me for sure...
;-)
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Is Emirates really this bad?
http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/40...nt-videos.html
Why should Canadians and other ex-pats be forced into working in sub-standard conditions if this is the way it labour-management relations work in your part of the world?
I'd rather foster a strong Canadian industry with good paying Canadian jobs than see these jobs exported into the middle east.
http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/40...nt-videos.html
Why should Canadians and other ex-pats be forced into working in sub-standard conditions if this is the way it labour-management relations work in your part of the world?
I'd rather foster a strong Canadian industry with good paying Canadian jobs than see these jobs exported into the middle east.
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Air Canada has gone bankrupt in the past...that is acknowledged
Do those plans include maybe serving the growing Indian population in the GTA. The market is there...you don't even need statistics to know that...just fly to Europe on any carrier and look at the makeup of the flight (from YYZ).
No to Emirates!
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My friend,
If you actually read some of the posts in this thread, you'd realize that is about a much larger picture than Air Canada.
"proper competition" is the key phrase. How exactly do you propose a country with laws, taxes, living wages, a legal system, a participatory democracy (I could go on and on) compete with a despotic dictatorship that has no labour protections, no reasonable (ie balanced) justice system, and an endless supply of cheap slave labour?
Don't let your petty dislike of Air Canada blind you to the real issues. If Emirates wants to fly in Canada let them open a base in Toronto and hire pilots to fly out of it. Let them see how they can compete when they are operating under the same rules as Air Canada, in Canada. Why not, if that's where they want to fly? Step up or shut up.
Emirates is just one more example of "flags of convenience", just like the supertankers based in Liberia or the Nike shoes made in China.
As one of the pilots who might be referred to as "forced" to work for Emirates, no, there was no gun held to my head. But after multiple layoffs and no hiring at the time in Canada, there wasn't a lot of choice. But it's far worse for the mass of labourers in Dubai, so the poster who asked "who's forcing Canadians or anyone else to work there" just has no effing clue about the desperation of most subcontinent/asian workers. THEY absolutely are forced by circumstance.
and wxgeek,
I can assure you that the videos are actually only the tip of the iceberg. They are viciously hilarious because they are so spot-on.
If you actually read some of the posts in this thread, you'd realize that is about a much larger picture than Air Canada.
"proper competition" is the key phrase. How exactly do you propose a country with laws, taxes, living wages, a legal system, a participatory democracy (I could go on and on) compete with a despotic dictatorship that has no labour protections, no reasonable (ie balanced) justice system, and an endless supply of cheap slave labour?
Don't let your petty dislike of Air Canada blind you to the real issues. If Emirates wants to fly in Canada let them open a base in Toronto and hire pilots to fly out of it. Let them see how they can compete when they are operating under the same rules as Air Canada, in Canada. Why not, if that's where they want to fly? Step up or shut up.
Emirates is just one more example of "flags of convenience", just like the supertankers based in Liberia or the Nike shoes made in China.
As one of the pilots who might be referred to as "forced" to work for Emirates, no, there was no gun held to my head. But after multiple layoffs and no hiring at the time in Canada, there wasn't a lot of choice. But it's far worse for the mass of labourers in Dubai, so the poster who asked "who's forcing Canadians or anyone else to work there" just has no effing clue about the desperation of most subcontinent/asian workers. THEY absolutely are forced by circumstance.
and wxgeek,
I can assure you that the videos are actually only the tip of the iceberg. They are viciously hilarious because they are so spot-on.
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Nolimit , thats about the best statement on the entire saga so far.
I could not agree more. Good post.
I am in EK and would like nothing more than regular flights to Canada. However its not a level playing field for all the reasons you stated.
As mentioned ( even the cleaning staff in Canada have certain rights and a minimum standard of living that the law watches over) , whereas "all" staff at EK have no recourse . Its not about protecting AC , but has to do with a much bigger picture protecting the Canadian way of life. I am with the Canadian Gov on this one and I hope they block EK.
Flights back home are so full on EK , and off course we only get one annual leave ticket. So when you take the rest off your leave you face enormous stress if you will get back. So like passenger " X" I just by a confirmed seat ( economy) , but never on EK . Always on the ' western' competition. I believe in giving my money to organisations that represent a more agreeable/ people orientated/fair/ humane system( even if the tickets might be a few 100dhs more on occassion). The stopover in Europe is a nice break on the way home.
Not to mention how good it feels as a " customer" to exercise my choice of carrier.
Much more transparency and fairplay required.
I could not agree more. Good post.
I am in EK and would like nothing more than regular flights to Canada. However its not a level playing field for all the reasons you stated.
As mentioned ( even the cleaning staff in Canada have certain rights and a minimum standard of living that the law watches over) , whereas "all" staff at EK have no recourse . Its not about protecting AC , but has to do with a much bigger picture protecting the Canadian way of life. I am with the Canadian Gov on this one and I hope they block EK.
Flights back home are so full on EK , and off course we only get one annual leave ticket. So when you take the rest off your leave you face enormous stress if you will get back. So like passenger " X" I just by a confirmed seat ( economy) , but never on EK . Always on the ' western' competition. I believe in giving my money to organisations that represent a more agreeable/ people orientated/fair/ humane system( even if the tickets might be a few 100dhs more on occassion). The stopover in Europe is a nice break on the way home.
Not to mention how good it feels as a " customer" to exercise my choice of carrier.
Much more transparency and fairplay required.
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If the Canadian government haven't figured out their protecting Air Canada doesn't work by now, they never will. The government had a hand in the collapse / takeover of Wardair, C3, Canadian, and a handfull of carriers owned by the crook Mike the White. All this to prop up the mighty national carrier. Air Canada still has a inferior product, and with the baby sitting in Ottawa still can't turn a proffit. It's time to let the industry and travelling public decide who they want to fly with. I'm not condoning fifth freedom or whatever they call point to point within a country, but let anybody fly into Canada. You Air Canada wanks think you are god's gift to aviation. Maybe if the gov allowed proper competition, AC would get their house in order, along with the suffocating contracts of the unions. Sickening!
Give your head a shake.
The government doesn't offer Air Canada the protectionism that you seem to have in your small head. In fact, the Air Canada act prevents Air Canada from competing fairly in the domestic market.
You might want to get your head out of the sand if you think that EK's increased presence in Canada will not hurt all Canadians and not to mention the transatlantic and american markets. No to Emirates!
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Kingair
You will have to explain that one to me. Surely one leads to the other?
The point I have made in the past is that they are still allowed to compete whilst under this protection. Bit of an artificial market really when other carriers do not have this luxury or have run their business so they don't need it.
Fairpoint...and my colleagues did explain this to me (foreigner that I am).
However Air Canada does control a LOT of the domestic market. If I am flying out of Toronto YYZ on a domestic DIRECT flight who are my choices...I have 2( and I include Jazz under the Air Canada banner...I know it is a bit more complicated than that). Not really a lot of competition or choice there.
From my perspective all this act seems to do is make Air Canada fly to places they don't want to. How it affects their competitive edge in a domestic market (and I am talking Canada) is not clear.
BTW those awards are a bit misleading. They are all "North America" not world based....and given the stick that all the American carriers seem to get regarding their service it is not surprising that Air Canada would get top marks for "best flight attendants in North America".
It is not really part of the debate but unfortunately if we bring service into this discussion Emirates would win hands down.
WXgeek
Then lets hope Air Canada leaves Porter airlines to continue doing their thing because if they tried to knock Porter out of the market you lose Canadian jobs, planes and base.
Twas interesting to see Emirates swoop when Skyservice went under with the timing of their roadshows. Does anyone know how successful they were?
Air Canada was not bankrupt, they were in bankruptcy protection. Big difference between the two.
The point I have made in the past is that they are still allowed to compete whilst under this protection. Bit of an artificial market really when other carriers do not have this luxury or have run their business so they don't need it.
In fact, the Air Canada act prevents Air Canada from competing fairly in the domestic market.
However Air Canada does control a LOT of the domestic market. If I am flying out of Toronto YYZ on a domestic DIRECT flight who are my choices...I have 2( and I include Jazz under the Air Canada banner...I know it is a bit more complicated than that). Not really a lot of competition or choice there.
From my perspective all this act seems to do is make Air Canada fly to places they don't want to. How it affects their competitive edge in a domestic market (and I am talking Canada) is not clear.
BTW those awards are a bit misleading. They are all "North America" not world based....and given the stick that all the American carriers seem to get regarding their service it is not surprising that Air Canada would get top marks for "best flight attendants in North America".
It is not really part of the debate but unfortunately if we bring service into this discussion Emirates would win hands down.
WXgeek
I'd rather foster a strong Canadian industry with good paying Canadian jobs than see these jobs exported into the middle east
Twas interesting to see Emirates swoop when Skyservice went under with the timing of their roadshows. Does anyone know how successful they were?
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With your analogy, BA, AA, United and every other tom dick or hairy should have to have a base in Toronto to fly there. Give your head a shake.
The airlines you mention are all already based in countries similar in Canada in the ways I mentioned. Some might disagree but last I checked Britain and the US are still forms of participatory democracies and thus bear more than a faint resemblance to the way things are in Canada.
If you actually lived in the UAE you would realize it's a whole other ball game and thus, comparing apples to oranges. While I would not be so presumptuous as to ask the Middle East to leave their medieval socio/political systems in the past, I would definitely fight to not have them not drag the world airline industry down to their level.
In other words, comparing BA/AA/UA to EK is pure bs.
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wind 'em up and let 'em go!
Guess your appliction was rejected. Sour grapes!! Somebody should smack you upside the head!
EK's increased presence in Canada will hurt all Canadians and not to mention the transatlantic and american markets. No to Emirates!
The airlines you mention are all already based in countries similar in Canada in the ways I mentioned. Some might disagree but last I checked Britain and the US are still forms of participatory democracies and thus bear more than a faint resemblance to the way things are in Canada.
In other words, comparing BA/AA/UA to EK is pure bs
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Do you even know what ethnocentric means, you fool?
Two of the countries I mentioned are populated mainly by immigrants. (US and Canada). The other, UK, is fast having their traditional population displaced by migrants. So these are hardly "ethnocentric" countries, rather the opposite with increasingly DIVERSE ethnicities!
All of which has NOTHING to do with my contention that the political systems in the US, Canada, and the UK are somewhat similar, while that of the UAE and its ILK is most certainly most not! Do I have to get the crayons out and draw you a goddamn picture?!
BTW, they did ask the paying customers, and apparently quite a few of them felt positively about AC to allow it win several awards. But once again, irrelevant to the greater picture of comparing one political system to another.
If you're going to try and debate, at least try and bring something to the table. Thanks for playing.
Two of the countries I mentioned are populated mainly by immigrants. (US and Canada). The other, UK, is fast having their traditional population displaced by migrants. So these are hardly "ethnocentric" countries, rather the opposite with increasingly DIVERSE ethnicities!
All of which has NOTHING to do with my contention that the political systems in the US, Canada, and the UK are somewhat similar, while that of the UAE and its ILK is most certainly most not! Do I have to get the crayons out and draw you a goddamn picture?!
BTW, they did ask the paying customers, and apparently quite a few of them felt positively about AC to allow it win several awards. But once again, irrelevant to the greater picture of comparing one political system to another.
If you're going to try and debate, at least try and bring something to the table. Thanks for playing.
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HaHaHa, oh seriously my friend. Do you want me to pull out my Raymond767 cards and show you who you are debating with? I won't bore the viewers with that, but if you want a PM debate, feel free.
You are debating and contradicting yourself on this forum and looking like a fool in the process. Do you think I would introduce the word 'ethnocentric' if I didn't know its meaning? In which university course did you become acquainted with it?
Now, draw me a god damned picture.
Who do you think works for EK? Emiratis? Not too many. Grab a clue. By excluding them based on your, excuse the big word, ethnocentric views, you are excluding Canadians, Americans, Brits, Aussies, Germans, Italians, and on and on and on. Not too many Emiratis. And by the way my learned friend, what is wrong with Emiratis? Are they not good enough to fly into your ivory land?
You are debating and contradicting yourself on this forum and looking like a fool in the process. Do you think I would introduce the word 'ethnocentric' if I didn't know its meaning? In which university course did you become acquainted with it?
Now, draw me a god damned picture.
Who do you think works for EK? Emiratis? Not too many. Grab a clue. By excluding them based on your, excuse the big word, ethnocentric views, you are excluding Canadians, Americans, Brits, Aussies, Germans, Italians, and on and on and on. Not too many Emiratis. And by the way my learned friend, what is wrong with Emiratis? Are they not good enough to fly into your ivory land?
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Ahh, I see, we're debating the validity of various political systems vis a vis their right to access the canadian market?
Ok, so you go ahead and set the rules of the debate then and change them as you see fit.
So by your standards, there are many other countries by virtue of their lack of canadian style politics that should be restricted from expanding. Care to start a list? Axis of evil?
As for being populated by immigrants, Dubai is 85% expats, but you already knew that didn't you because you lived here. Just slipped your mind I guess.
And the awards to AC you speak of are for North American carriers only, as was mentioned before. So BA, EK, etc were not compared by said customers. EK would have to drag AC up to its level, not down as you said.
Nobody is talking about supplanting the govt of canada with the UAE royal family, just adding some frequency.
Ok, so you go ahead and set the rules of the debate then and change them as you see fit.
So by your standards, there are many other countries by virtue of their lack of canadian style politics that should be restricted from expanding. Care to start a list? Axis of evil?
As for being populated by immigrants, Dubai is 85% expats, but you already knew that didn't you because you lived here. Just slipped your mind I guess.
And the awards to AC you speak of are for North American carriers only, as was mentioned before. So BA, EK, etc were not compared by said customers. EK would have to drag AC up to its level, not down as you said.
Nobody is talking about supplanting the govt of canada with the UAE royal family, just adding some frequency.