The right to work in Canada...
Lots of thread creep on this one, but after all, what is PPRuNe really for?
But since a few have chosen to hijack the thread and go on an uninformed rant, it's time to set the record straight on foreign pilots flying for Sunwing (and other Canadian carriers) in the winter. The carriers involved (and their Canadian pilots) benefit from reciprocal arrangements that allow Canadian pilots to work in Europe during the summer months. In all of these cases, there is a balance on both sides (one for one), and in at least one of these cases, more Canadians have traditionally gone to Europe in the summer than have come this way in the winter. And while the postings in Europe provide a full 6 months of work for virtually every position, many of the spots offered to our European colleagues are 4 to 5 months in duration, thereby swinging the "benefit" of these jobs further in our direction.
These positions help to support a significant increase in holiday charter demand in opposite seasons. More Europeans take their vacations in the summer, while we Canadians need our fill of vitamin D and cheap rum in the winter. It's a function of the marketplace that if the Canadian charter carriers didn't grow their fleets to meet this demand, it would be filled somehow. Air Canada and Westjet do not have the capacity to meet the increase in demand. So if someone didn't fill that demand here in Canada, we'd see more Canadians (particularly those living near the US border) going across the border and flying with a US carrier, which would do nothing to improve the employment prospects of Canadian pilots, not to mention all the others who benefit in these companies. Sunwing, for example, went from a fleet of 2 - 3 aircraft here in Canada last summer to 15 aircraft this winter. Their summer fleet will shrink again this coming summer. What are they (the company) supposed to do? Keep a 2 to 1 surplus of pilots on the payroll for the summer months with no work for the majority of them to do? I can gaurantee you that if Westjet, or Air Canada, (or BA or Southwest) had a two thirds decrease in their business in short order, their benevolence would not extend to the level of keeping all of their pilots on the payroll!
The reality, as hard as it may be for some to accept, is that these reciprocal agreements provide gainful employment for more Canadian pilots than we'd have if billy and Willie (how cute
) actually had it their way.
But since a few have chosen to hijack the thread and go on an uninformed rant, it's time to set the record straight on foreign pilots flying for Sunwing (and other Canadian carriers) in the winter. The carriers involved (and their Canadian pilots) benefit from reciprocal arrangements that allow Canadian pilots to work in Europe during the summer months. In all of these cases, there is a balance on both sides (one for one), and in at least one of these cases, more Canadians have traditionally gone to Europe in the summer than have come this way in the winter. And while the postings in Europe provide a full 6 months of work for virtually every position, many of the spots offered to our European colleagues are 4 to 5 months in duration, thereby swinging the "benefit" of these jobs further in our direction.
These positions help to support a significant increase in holiday charter demand in opposite seasons. More Europeans take their vacations in the summer, while we Canadians need our fill of vitamin D and cheap rum in the winter. It's a function of the marketplace that if the Canadian charter carriers didn't grow their fleets to meet this demand, it would be filled somehow. Air Canada and Westjet do not have the capacity to meet the increase in demand. So if someone didn't fill that demand here in Canada, we'd see more Canadians (particularly those living near the US border) going across the border and flying with a US carrier, which would do nothing to improve the employment prospects of Canadian pilots, not to mention all the others who benefit in these companies. Sunwing, for example, went from a fleet of 2 - 3 aircraft here in Canada last summer to 15 aircraft this winter. Their summer fleet will shrink again this coming summer. What are they (the company) supposed to do? Keep a 2 to 1 surplus of pilots on the payroll for the summer months with no work for the majority of them to do? I can gaurantee you that if Westjet, or Air Canada, (or BA or Southwest) had a two thirds decrease in their business in short order, their benevolence would not extend to the level of keeping all of their pilots on the payroll!
The reality, as hard as it may be for some to accept, is that these reciprocal agreements provide gainful employment for more Canadian pilots than we'd have if billy and Willie (how cute
) actually had it their way.
Last edited by J.O.; 24th Apr 2009 at 15:06.
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J.O. I couldn't agree with you more.
777 I understand what you mean when it comes to supplementing countries with pilots when their own infrastructure doesn't support it. I've been contracting for a looong time and have been on both sides of the coin. I've been part of the regulatory body that had to decide whether to allow foreign pilots, and I've been a pilot with companies that employ foreigners in Canada. Not to mention I've also been a pilot on this reciprocal agreement in Canada from the point of view as a UK licenced pilot and a Canadian. I have over 5000 hours 737CL and NG time and applied twice to Canjet and heard nothing. Do I feel slighted that they have German pilots operating here....not at all. Am I upset that Sunwing have foreigners working here? No not at all. Aviation is global, it is no place to be a xenophobe.
777 I understand what you mean when it comes to supplementing countries with pilots when their own infrastructure doesn't support it. I've been contracting for a looong time and have been on both sides of the coin. I've been part of the regulatory body that had to decide whether to allow foreign pilots, and I've been a pilot with companies that employ foreigners in Canada. Not to mention I've also been a pilot on this reciprocal agreement in Canada from the point of view as a UK licenced pilot and a Canadian. I have over 5000 hours 737CL and NG time and applied twice to Canjet and heard nothing. Do I feel slighted that they have German pilots operating here....not at all. Am I upset that Sunwing have foreigners working here? No not at all. Aviation is global, it is no place to be a xenophobe.
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The benefit of having a reasonably good aviation industry in Canada is the fact that this country produces some of the finest pilots in the world and operators worldwide have had the benefit of their expertise.
Care to back that claim up with some factual proof?
Last time I looked Canada had very low standards to become a pilot compared to for instance Europe.
Or do you mean Canada has a large pool of pilots who work in the bush flying industry and those who survive self training are good pilots?
Care to back that claim up with some factual proof?
Last time I looked Canada had very low standards to become a pilot compared to for instance Europe.
Or do you mean Canada has a large pool of pilots who work in the bush flying industry and those who survive self training are good pilots?
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CHC global has employed pilots from USA, UK, Australia, NZ, South Africa etc all for their international operations. Pilots come to Canada get their Canadian ALTP setup their company benifits and salary transfers. Then head back to their own countries. We do 6 on 6 off and head back to our home countries on time off. Surprised the canadian pilots haven't thrown their toys out of the cot on this one.
Last edited by Heli-Jet; 24th Apr 2009 at 01:23.
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I think some may have confused ACMI with the hiring of foreign pilots. They are not the same thing, IMHO.
ACMI is Sunwings' (and others) way of circumventing the real issue. I understand why they don't want to purchase or lease any more aircraft facing one of the most severe downturns in the airline/charter airline industry the world has ever seen. If they didn't ACMI, it would probably ensure their own demise.
ACMI? Good business and fair enough.
When operators take on additional aircraft through a lease or purchase and not through ACMI, they have to then go out and recruit, hire, train and put into service, legitimate Canadian pilots. They claim there aren't enough qualified (type rated) and experienced (4000 plus hours of international flying) Canadian pilots out there to employ. Which I don't doubt. But I say, at least use the ones that are there before you employ foreign pilots! Which I'm not convinced they're doing or even trying to do. Our guys and gals deserve to gain international flight experience too.
Believe what you want.
I for one, believe Canadian pilots should be employed by Canadian air carriers and if Sunwing or any other carrier in this country for that matter, directly hires a foreign pilot under the present environment should be subjected to the severest of fines and penalties for lying to the Government about the 'real' pilot situation in this country.
The situation is quite simply that THEY don't want to train Canadian pilots by having to provide a type rating (as witnessed by training contracts). Why? Because, some of those pilots they insist on stiffing, might leave. (...and they might go out of business)
To me, that's the real issue and that's not the same as an ACMI.
To me, that's not a legitimate shortage of qualified pilots and it's NO reason to directly employ foreign pilots either.
BTW, I totally agree with Chuck. If you think our Canadian ATPL is world class , I suggest you take a closer look. You might start by attempting the JAA exams or taking a 61.58.
Willie
ACMI is Sunwings' (and others) way of circumventing the real issue. I understand why they don't want to purchase or lease any more aircraft facing one of the most severe downturns in the airline/charter airline industry the world has ever seen. If they didn't ACMI, it would probably ensure their own demise.
ACMI? Good business and fair enough.
When operators take on additional aircraft through a lease or purchase and not through ACMI, they have to then go out and recruit, hire, train and put into service, legitimate Canadian pilots. They claim there aren't enough qualified (type rated) and experienced (4000 plus hours of international flying) Canadian pilots out there to employ. Which I don't doubt. But I say, at least use the ones that are there before you employ foreign pilots! Which I'm not convinced they're doing or even trying to do. Our guys and gals deserve to gain international flight experience too.
Believe what you want.
I for one, believe Canadian pilots should be employed by Canadian air carriers and if Sunwing or any other carrier in this country for that matter, directly hires a foreign pilot under the present environment should be subjected to the severest of fines and penalties for lying to the Government about the 'real' pilot situation in this country.
The situation is quite simply that THEY don't want to train Canadian pilots by having to provide a type rating (as witnessed by training contracts). Why? Because, some of those pilots they insist on stiffing, might leave. (...and they might go out of business)
To me, that's the real issue and that's not the same as an ACMI.
To me, that's not a legitimate shortage of qualified pilots and it's NO reason to directly employ foreign pilots either.
BTW, I totally agree with Chuck. If you think our Canadian ATPL is world class , I suggest you take a closer look. You might start by attempting the JAA exams or taking a 61.58.
Willie
All of the pilots that Sunwing has "hired" are Canadian citizens. The foreign pilots flying for them are here on temporary deployments as part of their reciprocal aircraft sharing agreements. Same goes for Canjet and Skyservice. They aren't giving permanent employment to any foreign crewmembers.
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J.O.
Thanks for clearing that up. What all of this amounts to is simply an ACMI arrangement.
Unfortunately, there ARE those who DO employ foreign pilots AND provide assistance with immigration and labour certification. We have some in our organization, so I'll leave it at that.
Like I said, "If they didn't ACMI, it would probably ensure their own demise."
IMHO, carriers in Canada will (not might) fail in the months ahead so this discussion will be a moot point.
Thanks for clearing that up. What all of this amounts to is simply an ACMI arrangement.
Unfortunately, there ARE those who DO employ foreign pilots AND provide assistance with immigration and labour certification. We have some in our organization, so I'll leave it at that.
Like I said, "If they didn't ACMI, it would probably ensure their own demise."
IMHO, carriers in Canada will (not might) fail in the months ahead so this discussion will be a moot point.
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 27th Apr 2009 at 09:38.
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IMHO, carriers in Canada will (not might) fail in the months ahead so this discussion will be a moot point.
WJA isn't going anywhere. Big Red, while experiencing difficulty (what else is new???), isn't going anywhere. Porter is expanding at a moderate and sustainable rate. Lots of other regionals and charters that are doing just fine.
No need to proclaim that "the sky is falling".
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Oh Chuck... notwithstanding your well publicized and long history with the Feds in Canada, I would suggest that the ATR a lot of us hold isn't as bad as you would suggest. Based on the one I hold, I have been given no less that 4 foreign ATPL's. (Yes I am an expat) and you might be very surprised to learn that the airlines I work for are well respected by the aviation community. By all means keep us informed about how you feel about the regulator, but stop belittling the licence, lots of very good guys I know use it to make their living.
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My Sentiments...
Yes, Left', I agree with you. I've been a career contract pilot. When employers were looking for pilots and they found that I had a Canadian document, it was easy to find work because of the training and experience that I'd received.
When the time came to leave a contract position, it was easy to move on and find gainful employment elsewhere. As for me not taking someone's job...ironically, I trained 'their' pilots and as a result, trained myself out of a job! No hard feelings, that's what I'm there for.
In retrospect, any Canadians that I have have worked with, stand head and shoulders above most in the world of aviation. I don't say that just because I'm a Canuck. By virtue of our sphere of operations in this country, Canadian pilots are exposed to such a diverse set of environmental and geographical conditions. The knowledge that the Canadians bring to a foreign operator is rich and diverse and a foreign operator who hires a Canadian, by and large will be hiring someone who will be an asset.
As I said earlier in my posts, I'll hire a Canadian here in Canada, before I'd hire a foreign pilot to complete my permanent cadre in this country. When we run out of good talent locally, I might consider a foreign pilot, and that won't be any time soon.
When the time came to leave a contract position, it was easy to move on and find gainful employment elsewhere. As for me not taking someone's job...ironically, I trained 'their' pilots and as a result, trained myself out of a job! No hard feelings, that's what I'm there for.
In retrospect, any Canadians that I have have worked with, stand head and shoulders above most in the world of aviation. I don't say that just because I'm a Canuck. By virtue of our sphere of operations in this country, Canadian pilots are exposed to such a diverse set of environmental and geographical conditions. The knowledge that the Canadians bring to a foreign operator is rich and diverse and a foreign operator who hires a Canadian, by and large will be hiring someone who will be an asset.
As I said earlier in my posts, I'll hire a Canadian here in Canada, before I'd hire a foreign pilot to complete my permanent cadre in this country. When we run out of good talent locally, I might consider a foreign pilot, and that won't be any time soon.
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Oh Chuck... notwithstanding your well publicized and long history with the Feds in Canada,
My long history with the Feds in Canada?
Please explain what you are referring to?
In retrospect, any Canadians that I have have worked with, stand head and shoulders above most in the world of aviation. I don't say that just because I'm a Canuck.
Really? How about the flying skills of a large group who hold a FAA license, would they not be at least as good as a Canadian?
My long history with the Feds in Canada?
Please explain what you are referring to?
In retrospect, any Canadians that I have have worked with, stand head and shoulders above most in the world of aviation. I don't say that just because I'm a Canuck.
Really? How about the flying skills of a large group who hold a FAA license, would they not be at least as good as a Canadian?
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YHZChick
While I don't think the sky is falling just yet, like many others, I read industry data on a daily basis, as well as financials. Particularly the airline industry (that's where i work) and oil prices (after the paperwork, that's usually what gets an aeroplane into the air). Before we get into it, I'm sure most aviators keep their ears pretty close to that kind of info as well. But, maybe each of us analyse the data differently?
If there's one thing I've learned over the last 30 years it's that we are a small country (population). We have far too many air carriers (for our population). We have an economy that really isn't what we might think it is, or think it should be. We have the tar sands, one of the largest oil reserves on the planet (despite Alberta's opinion on who owns what) and still we have a list of failed carriers the length of which is amazing for such an insignificant part of the overall global aviation picture.
(Google Peak Oil)
That said, based on what I read, see, hear and base my opinions on, it's going to get ugly. Based on the past (we're you paying a mortgage when we had 23% mortgage rates?) there's going to be some bad luck arriving soon at an air carrier near you.
As far as WHO? I'm not that smart. Sorry.
There used to be a national carrier called Sabena.
There used to be a national carrier called Swissair.
Air Canada was privatized years ago and our government is bailing out the auto industry right now. Don't hedge your bets just yet.
LC and 777
When I contracted overseas the interest in my being Canadian had much less to do with my ATPL than it did with my holding a Canadian Passport. Trips were rearranged occasionally because of destination and passport requirements which the assigned crew failed to meet.
In case you haven't noticed, lots of foreign pilots are immigrating to Canada to get that passport and continue working overseas. I've seen crew enter foreign countries with passport A, passport B, or passport C.
Look at the ads today for pilots. I see JAA/FAA/ICAO licence preferred.
What do you see? Canadian ATPL?
Our FLT OPS payed lots of bucks for crew Visas and entry fines.
The number of Canadians impacted? Zero. We entered so many countries without Visas or entry restrictions you wouldn't believe. One night stop we had to leave an Egyptian F/A and a Syrian L/M on the aircraft because they were refused entry to this particular country. After cash payment of a fine and many hours of negotiation, they were allowed to join the crew at their hotac.
I'm not so sure the licence is held in that high esteem. ICAO oversight pretty much sets the standards by which most signatories comply. Regulators such as the JAA and FAA (primarily the FAA) set their own standard.
Just talking out loud over here, and not necessarily looking for agreement or disagreement. It's strictly my experience and interpretation.
Enjoy.
Willie
While I don't think the sky is falling just yet, like many others, I read industry data on a daily basis, as well as financials. Particularly the airline industry (that's where i work) and oil prices (after the paperwork, that's usually what gets an aeroplane into the air). Before we get into it, I'm sure most aviators keep their ears pretty close to that kind of info as well. But, maybe each of us analyse the data differently?
If there's one thing I've learned over the last 30 years it's that we are a small country (population). We have far too many air carriers (for our population). We have an economy that really isn't what we might think it is, or think it should be. We have the tar sands, one of the largest oil reserves on the planet (despite Alberta's opinion on who owns what) and still we have a list of failed carriers the length of which is amazing for such an insignificant part of the overall global aviation picture.
(Google Peak Oil)
That said, based on what I read, see, hear and base my opinions on, it's going to get ugly. Based on the past (we're you paying a mortgage when we had 23% mortgage rates?) there's going to be some bad luck arriving soon at an air carrier near you.
As far as WHO? I'm not that smart. Sorry.
There used to be a national carrier called Sabena.
There used to be a national carrier called Swissair.
Air Canada was privatized years ago and our government is bailing out the auto industry right now. Don't hedge your bets just yet.
LC and 777
When I contracted overseas the interest in my being Canadian had much less to do with my ATPL than it did with my holding a Canadian Passport. Trips were rearranged occasionally because of destination and passport requirements which the assigned crew failed to meet.
In case you haven't noticed, lots of foreign pilots are immigrating to Canada to get that passport and continue working overseas. I've seen crew enter foreign countries with passport A, passport B, or passport C.
Look at the ads today for pilots. I see JAA/FAA/ICAO licence preferred.
What do you see? Canadian ATPL?
Our FLT OPS payed lots of bucks for crew Visas and entry fines.
The number of Canadians impacted? Zero. We entered so many countries without Visas or entry restrictions you wouldn't believe. One night stop we had to leave an Egyptian F/A and a Syrian L/M on the aircraft because they were refused entry to this particular country. After cash payment of a fine and many hours of negotiation, they were allowed to join the crew at their hotac.
I'm not so sure the licence is held in that high esteem. ICAO oversight pretty much sets the standards by which most signatories comply. Regulators such as the JAA and FAA (primarily the FAA) set their own standard.
Just talking out loud over here, and not necessarily looking for agreement or disagreement. It's strictly my experience and interpretation.
Enjoy.
Willie
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 14th May 2009 at 00:37.
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You could always come to the UK. Our airlines let anyone in ahead of a British Pilot: some have licences, and some can even fly too! I say this as a currently unemployed Englishman who would love to live and fly in Canada, knows where Yellowknife is, and could show you where Cambridge Bay is, and Resolute Bay, and has an immigration stamp from Eureka in an old passport from a trip a bit further North. And I learnt to fly in Gimli: how many of the septics know where that is? 
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All of the pilots that Sunwing has "hired" are Canadian citizens. The foreign pilots flying for them are here on temporary deployments as part of their reciprocal aircraft sharing agreements. Same goes for Canjet and Skyservice. They aren't giving permanent employment to any foreign crewmembers.
Reciprocity works when it's legitimized through written agreements and quotas. Otherwise it's just a "free for all". And that is not good for the profession no matter what country you're from.
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Here in the UK at my airline we have many, many different nationalities.
British
French
South African
Kiwis
Netherlands etc
I for one have a JAA licence and would love to work in Canada.
Is it unfair that jobs here in the UK are taken by qualified guys and girls from the above countries? No, I dont think so. It is a global economy, and the right person for the job should be allowed, nae, should get the position based on an ability to do the job, not where they were born.
So, what do I need, as a Brit to live and work in Canada?
Any hlep much appreiciated. If that upsets some people, how about we job share? You can do mine for a bit and Ill do yours?
Regards,
BRS
British
French
South African
Kiwis
Netherlands etc
I for one have a JAA licence and would love to work in Canada.
Is it unfair that jobs here in the UK are taken by qualified guys and girls from the above countries? No, I dont think so. It is a global economy, and the right person for the job should be allowed, nae, should get the position based on an ability to do the job, not where they were born.
So, what do I need, as a Brit to live and work in Canada?
Any hlep much appreiciated. If that upsets some people, how about we job share? You can do mine for a bit and Ill do yours?
Regards,
BRS
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Are you suggesting that a graduate from one of Canada's aviation colleges or flight schools are capable of competing with a high time airline pilot for a position as a pilot on a Jet?
His point was not that any Canadian pilot is better than any American pilot, but that there is no shortage of native talent in Canada.
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Better to remain
Since you ask, "Is it unfair that jobs here in the UK are taken by qualified guys and girls from the above countries?"
I suppose it depends upon EU agreements between the 12 member nations. Yeah? So I'd have to say that it's not unfair.
Canada is made up of 10 Provinces and three territories. For its' size, it would be unfair to compare us to the EU, so I won't. As Canadians, for me to say it's fair that a similarly qualified pilot from Alberta who gets a pilot job over me, being from a different province, ISN'T SAYING MUCH, is it? So how then does it matter if someone from a different EU country is offered employment over someone such as yourself when that's allowed by EU agreement?
"It is a global economy, and the right person for the job should be allowed, nae, should get the position based on an ability to do the job, not where they were born." While it IS a global economy, the last time I checked, each country maintained it's own soverignty, immigration laws and citizenship requirements. Much like:
the British,
French,
South African,
Kiwis, and Dutch, etc in your example.
The best suggestion I could give you regarding Canada is to simply pop into the nearest Canadian Consulate or Embassy (or go on-line) and see what you require to immigrate here. Complete that process and once you've landed here, convert your licence and send out your CV like everyone else.
Opinion varies within this thread, but simply stated, the short cuts don't work. They don't work for us. They shouldn't work for you. That's not news, it's just a reality.
This is a big country and we certainly have room for you and yours. But, do apply and follow the process.
I'm simply one who believes that pilot vacancies at Canadian carriers are for Canadian pilots. That includes pilots who immigrate through proper channels.
Give it a shot!
Willie (good luck in the future)
Since you ask, "Is it unfair that jobs here in the UK are taken by qualified guys and girls from the above countries?"
I suppose it depends upon EU agreements between the 12 member nations. Yeah? So I'd have to say that it's not unfair.
Canada is made up of 10 Provinces and three territories. For its' size, it would be unfair to compare us to the EU, so I won't. As Canadians, for me to say it's fair that a similarly qualified pilot from Alberta who gets a pilot job over me, being from a different province, ISN'T SAYING MUCH, is it? So how then does it matter if someone from a different EU country is offered employment over someone such as yourself when that's allowed by EU agreement?
"It is a global economy, and the right person for the job should be allowed, nae, should get the position based on an ability to do the job, not where they were born." While it IS a global economy, the last time I checked, each country maintained it's own soverignty, immigration laws and citizenship requirements. Much like:
the British,
French,
South African,
Kiwis, and Dutch, etc in your example.
The best suggestion I could give you regarding Canada is to simply pop into the nearest Canadian Consulate or Embassy (or go on-line) and see what you require to immigrate here. Complete that process and once you've landed here, convert your licence and send out your CV like everyone else.
Opinion varies within this thread, but simply stated, the short cuts don't work. They don't work for us. They shouldn't work for you. That's not news, it's just a reality.
This is a big country and we certainly have room for you and yours. But, do apply and follow the process.
I'm simply one who believes that pilot vacancies at Canadian carriers are for Canadian pilots. That includes pilots who immigrate through proper channels.
Give it a shot!
Willie (good luck in the future)
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"..........I am Canadian going to school in US. No one would look at my resumes unless I have a green card. IS THIS FAIR? IT IS......"
CM6966, fair or not, is only opinion! That's the law.
That doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't look at you b/c you're Canadian.
What was this thread about again??
CM6966, fair or not, is only opinion! That's the law.
That doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't look at you b/c you're Canadian.
What was this thread about again??