Delays into CYYC?

[Nobody's Fool]

Does anybody know why there are increasing delays into CYYC? Holds over an hour long in recent past with little or no warning.

Any thoughts?

[WTFO]

Short staffed for YYC tower controllers and Edmonton Center Terminal controllers. They also went to a one runway operation last night which caused everyone a ton of grief.

[Ray Darr]

Blame Jim K.
HAHAHAHA! (half)-Joking, old buddy.

Cheers,
R.D.

[shakazulu]

My understanding is that the YEG Center controllers as well as the YYC tower, approach, etc. guys and gals like protecting their overtime too much for the general good of all. So instead of getting the correct amount of employees to do the given job, they get to work overtime whenever they want, but the rub is that you then get days when there simply aren't enough people to do the job. Anyone ever hear of "flow control" for northbound aircraft out of Calgary and Edmonton? That's where that comes from.
Someone ought to point some environmental group towards these guys; maybe that's the way to solve the problem. How much fuel is burned as a/c sit on taxiways, aprons, etc. waiting for their "flow time". Just another case of the tail wagging the dog - now wait, where have I seen that before??

[RB211-524G]

This is what I have also heard. As well, I have heard from someone who worked in Vancouver Centre for many years that the Edm. Centre people have a terrible rep within ATC. That being said as a pilot who deals with Edm Centre almost on a daily basis, they are in fact HORRIBLE AT WHAT THEY DO!!!! I have no idea why WJ,AC,JAZZ,etc... has not filed official complaints. How many times have I heard coming into yyc "the ceilings 010OVC, we're down to one runway, we're going to need you to slow down to 160KTS!!!! to make a crossing time or hold for the next hour" or "I'm going to vector you all over the sky because I can't figure any other way to get the spacing I need. What the f*ck, they are pathetic!!!! Ok. what about not closing IFR flight plans that originate in BC, even when i specifically say "please close and cancel my flight plan" Brutal!!!! Edmonton Centre is an embarassment to Canadian Aviation and is in some serious work. ok enough rant.,

[Glacier1900]

It's absolutely no different anywhere else in Canada. To make the understatement of the century ....our system is in serious need for an overhaul. VMC day into YVR/YYC/YEG, "slow as much as possible" then 10 min later "Go as fast as you can". Left hand, i'd like you to meet right hand.

[saudipc-9]

Well for having the worlds second largest airspace we sure have the most complex rules for flying in it. I really don't see why we couldn't be like the US and have VFR up to FL180.
I know around YMJ. YQR, YYN and YXE we have a number of problems with ATC. They often have the same guy controling all of the same airspace especially YQR and YXE. They actually made us file flight plans to go VFR from YMJ to YQR. What a crock of sh!T. However, not all of the guys and gals controlling are knobs, but good god once in a while it's obvious the controller needs to go and spank his monkey for some stress relief.

[Number2]

Some of the comments are a little harsh I feel. From what I understand, YEG Centre is working 2-man sectors (i.e. Data & radar positions) as single man sectors for a large proportion of the day due to lack of manning. I'm not sure if other centres have the same policy/problem. There are some pretty tired people at the Centre that probably wouldn't choose to work the maximum amount of overtime - if they had a choice. This has a knock-on effect on ability to train and the downward spiral continues.

Maybe, some people on here, if they use the facility regularly, should keep a day free and visit the centre. They might have a better appreciation of what's happening 'behind the scenes'.

My rant over!

[Ray Darr]

Look at the real issue. Nav Can is doing what any company is wanting to do: Minimum levels of staffing (dangerously min...) + Max time in the seat = max profits divided by the risk of this dangerous practice possibly resulting in AN ACCIDENT!!

NAV CAN - you read these posts - HOW ABOUT GETTING SOME MORE BODY'S FOR THOSE SEATS?? Your worker-bees are burned out, and it shows. Care to comment???

It's certain people at Nav Can's upper mis-management that needs a kick in the nuts over this, not the guys n gals watching the scope-blips.

~ R.D.

[Number2]

'They actually made us file flight plans to go VFR from YMJ to YQR'
Saudipc-9
With all due respect, you clearly don't realise how much that can reduce workload thus allowing the controller to provide his best service to all.
If you don't file, the controller may have to input the details of your flight into the system just to tag up the aircraft on the radar. That, as you can probably understand, can be a distraction.

[Jerricho]

Originally Posted by saudipc-9

They often have the same guy controling all of the same airspace especially YQR and YXE. They actually made us file flight plans to go VFR from YMJ to YQR. What a crock of sh!T.

I respectfully ask WHO "made you file VFR" and when did this happen?

[Number2]

Have we scared him off?

[saudipc-9]

Nope not scared off just been away from the puter. Ok All my flight details are kept at sqn ops and do not need to be recorded. YWG controlers are well aware of this being military flights and they are very used to us beating up the YQR pattern. Also my understanding that it was YWG who dictated that we shall file VFR flight plans to go from YMJ to YQR. Now granted this does not happen all the time and when I had to do it last it was during night flying and I know that it is greater than 25nm but being we have been flying out of YMJ to YQR for going on 70 years so that little issue is taken care of by telling our tower controllers that we are going to YQR and will be back shortly.

[Jerricho]

Originally Posted by saudipc-9

Also my understanding that it was YWG who dictated that we shall file VFR flight plans to go from YMJ to YQR.

Ahhhh, the plot thickens. Night flying you say........I'm guessing the terminal service had closed down for the night and perhaps the tower as well. Outside of Terminal hours, the airspace is handed over to enroute (is this your reference to "the one guy controlling the same airspace"?). Or is the fact that YQR and YXE Terminal services are sometimes combined onto the one position workload permitting? You mention "problems with ATC?" Civvy or Mil? And perhaps you would like to expand a little on these perceived "problems" rather than a blanket statement.

Now this is a very simplified description of what goes on (it is 0330 in the morning), but you mil guys stooging around in MJ airspace are already VFR are you not? Standard procedure is for the MJ contrller to give the civvy controller a point out along the lines of "See Bandit 21 there at FL200, wants a high approach at Regina........your control". IFR clearance is issued by the civvy controller while the flight is still in MJ airspace, approaches done, back to MJ.

I'm not trying to indulge in a "tit-for-tat" argument here, but you comment regarding the controller's need to knock one out in stress relief is not really founded in fact, is it? And you are certainly welcome to come fro a visit to YWG centre just to see what goes on.

[saudipc-9]

I’m not trying to indulge in a "tit-for-tat" argument here, but you comment regarding the controller's need to knock one out in stress relief is not really founded in fact, is it?

Well originally meant tongue in cheek but as you have raised the question... The attitude of some civic ATC does leave me with the impression that they either hate their jobs or have been put out of sorts by someone actually asking to shoot a couple of approaches. Again, this is not all folks but there do seem to be more than a few controllers who are regularly PO’d.
The problem I am referring to is the fact that civi ATC regularly tells the BIG2 how many aircraft they will accept into places like YQR for no good reason. Do they tell AC or West jet that they cannot fly there?? No.
I am not talking a large number of aircraft for an extended period of time each shooting a couple of approaches either. The tail it seems is wagging the dog and not the other way around.
When we are trying to accomplish training, this can have a major impact on our operations and limiting aircraft makes it our problem when in fact ATC needs to change their ops to accommodate.
Our military ATC also has its own issues but they are not what this thread was started about.
I have been in YEG centre and think that the ladies and gents there do a good job as do most of the controllers be they tower or radar. However, I don't appreciate attitude or ATC dictating operations that might not be convenient for them.
Filing a VFR flight plan has nothing to do with getting an approach and we do no tell ATC in YMJ which approach we wish to fly in YQR. If it is a full up IFR mission, we will file a full IFR flight plan.

[Jerricho]

Originally Posted by saudipc-9

However, I don't appreciate attitude or ATC dictating operations that might not be convenient for them

If you honestly thing that any request for approaches is based on "convenience" for the controller, then I may as well stop this discussion now............

I pose this to you. Do you think that perhaps your requests for approaches have been declined for operational reasons? Traffic at the airport? Weather? Staffing? Perhaps you need a refresher on what the C in "ATC" stands for. I also find it amusing you can glean the "attitude" of a controller from up there in the cockpit. What do you base your "PO'd" assertion on? You haven't really answered anything from my previous post regarding instances when you have been refused.

The problem I am referring to is the fact that civi ATC regularly tells the BIG2 how many aircraft they will accept into places like YQR for no good reason. Do they tell AC or West jet that they cannot fly there?? No.

Sorry to be so crass, but that is just plain bull****. Once again, no good reason? Sorry mate, you mention attitude earlier.......sounds like yours needs a bit of adjustment.

I've been doing a bit of a scouting mission over the last couple of days, asking both terminal and enroute controllers have they every denied a request for approaches at either YXE or YQR (btw, I work YXE terminal, so I'm including myself here). I have had 2 responses in the affirmative, and they were during the recent CAATS ORD at Winnipeg Centre (there was a NOTAM out......you may or may not have seen it ). Or is that one of the "no good reasons" you mention. I personally have never denied on. I'll do a little more asking around for you, just to be sure. Then again, if you actually visited Winnipeg Centre....... you know, the place you're being so eloquent about (as that's where YQR and YXE airspace is controller from), you could ask around yourself.

(I humbly apologise to the thread starter and other contributors to this thread for this unfortunate hijack)

[saudipc-9]

Jerricho,
You clearly have your hackles raised and need to relax

You haven't really answered anything from my previous post regarding instances when you have been refused.

I never said in any of my posts that I had been refused an approach!! What I did say was that AT"C" had told us that they would not accept any more than "4" aircraft going into YQR. Do I need to clarify any futher??

I also find it amusing you can glean the "attitude" of a controller from up there in the cockpit. What do you base your "PO'd" assertion on?

I'm glad that I could provide you with some entertainment. However, have you never been talking on a telephone and received attitude? The tone and abruptness which that person is using. If you haven't then I'm very happy for you but I know that others reading this thread know exactly what I am writing about.

Then again, if you actually visited Winnipeg Centre....... you know, the place you're being so eloquent about (as that's where YQR and YXE airspace is controller from), you could ask around yourself.

to which I wrote in my last post

I have been in YEG centre and think that the ladies and gents there do a good job as do most of the controllers be they tower or radar

Which part of that quote did you find not eloquent? Ops sorry I guess YWG must be a very different place to work.

Jerricho, take a step back you are making this very personnel

[Jerricho]

I will give you this to muse over...........imagine somebody came on here and started questioning the flying abilities, airmanship or professionalism of either yourself or your flying buddies (I believe one of the terms you used was "knobs"), especially with accusations that are totally inaccurate. Comments like that will certainly elicit some form of emotional respose. The eloquence I refer to is your inference that ATC "limit" your operations for ****s and giggles, with "no good reason".

In an earlier post you mention problems with YXE.......now you're in my playground. Anyone at YWG centre will tell you I'm one of the easiest (if not a little insane) people to get along with, however I will not stand by and watch unfounded assumptions that are directed at the place I operate. (I've re-read what I have posted and concur, it does sound a little snippy.......perhaps I need to knock one out myself. Although, if you want to see personal, come over to Jet Blast).

BTW, I'm glad you envoked the "others reading this thread knowing exactly where you are coming from", as I have shown this to several controllers AND a couple of pilots. They all pretty much agree what's been posted sounds like a dummy has been chucked out of a pram because them big nasty Civilian controllers have nothing better to do than make the military's life miserable. As to the 4 approaches at a time......that is managerial policy and has nothing to do with the guy or girl with the headset on. There is a conspiracy theory behind that one, but here's neither the time nor place.

Mate, we're all on the same side and working together in that big sky. If you honestly think what you have posted above regarding controllers being "inconvenienced" is fact, then that's your prerogative, and I am sorry to see that.

[Number2]

'we're all on the same side'

Bloody hell - when did that start? Nobody told me!

[Jerricho]

Shhhh.......you'll get to read all about it in the next Nav Can propaganda magazine