Delays into CYYC?
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 548
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From: Not a huge sand box but very nice winters anymore
As to the 4 approaches at a time......that is managerial policy and has nothing to do with the guy or girl with the headset on
ATC "limit" your operations for !!!!s and giggles
I'm one of the easiest (if not a little insane) people to get along with
imagine somebody came on here and started questioning the flying abilities, airmanship or professionalism of either yourself or your flying buddies
but I don't worry about it.
They often have the same guy controlling all of the same airspace especially YQR and YXE. They actually made us file flight plans to go VFR from YMJ to YQR. What a crock of sh!T.
Look, I'm not trying to bust your chops or anyone else's, but I do know what I have experienced.
The training load in YMJ is going to be rising by about 1/3 in the coming year so any issues regarding the number of flights being allowed into civi airfields is going to be highlighted further and yes we are all on the same side.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: canada
So ah, just to get back to the point boys, and now that it does indeed appear that we have a live controller on the line, perhaps you Sir, could answer a question or two for me...as myself and maybe one or two of the other guys have noticed some delays - I would maybe point toward YYC for this, as a good example - and see a lot of time, fuel, patience wasted while we all wait - do the controllers that work for NAVCANADA have any influence over whether more people get hired or not? I have heard some pretty interesting things over the last 2-3 years...
1: regular tower people like those at smaller airports, can try out for a job at IFR Center, but if they fail, then they are not allowed back to what they were doing. In other words, they have to gamble on their own ability to get through the course, or face a career change. Seems like they don't want too many people trying out for those jobs...
2: once they get through the course and are engaged in their indoctrination period, and they are asked by the company to come in for an extra shift, they are strongly coerced by the same people who can fail them out of said indoc to NOT do extra, as it might take overtime away from some of the older, established controllers. If they go ahead and do it anyway, they are seen as not really "playing ball" and somehow get washed out of the program.
I ask because I think that if that is the case, it is pretty poor. It would reflect badly on the company NAVCANADA that they could either be allowing that kind of thing to go on, or even worse, that they are so out of touch with what is going on that they are unaware of it.
I don't know the answers to these questions hence I ask them. If I am out in left field, I do apologize. If there is an element of truth, maybe it's worth talking about. I have several friends who are controllers, although I haven't seen them for some time. They are a fine bunch and are without exception, very capable people. I have had my fair share of emergencies, and was and still am very very grateful for the timely and accurate guidance I got from ATC.
1: regular tower people like those at smaller airports, can try out for a job at IFR Center, but if they fail, then they are not allowed back to what they were doing. In other words, they have to gamble on their own ability to get through the course, or face a career change. Seems like they don't want too many people trying out for those jobs...
2: once they get through the course and are engaged in their indoctrination period, and they are asked by the company to come in for an extra shift, they are strongly coerced by the same people who can fail them out of said indoc to NOT do extra, as it might take overtime away from some of the older, established controllers. If they go ahead and do it anyway, they are seen as not really "playing ball" and somehow get washed out of the program.
I ask because I think that if that is the case, it is pretty poor. It would reflect badly on the company NAVCANADA that they could either be allowing that kind of thing to go on, or even worse, that they are so out of touch with what is going on that they are unaware of it.
I don't know the answers to these questions hence I ask them. If I am out in left field, I do apologize. If there is an element of truth, maybe it's worth talking about. I have several friends who are controllers, although I haven't seen them for some time. They are a fine bunch and are without exception, very capable people. I have had my fair share of emergencies, and was and still am very very grateful for the timely and accurate guidance I got from ATC.
Ohcirrej
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,919
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From: This is the internet FFS.........
Shaka, as a "off-shore" controller who came to Canada from Blighty, I too heard some of the stories you refer to (and have seen them posted on this site as well).
Now, I can only speak for Winnipeg Centre, but controllers not checking people out to "protect their overtime" is pure garbage. Overtime can be nice now and then (especially in Winter when it's -30 out), but there's only so much you can work without adversely affecting your health, your sanity and your personal life. Summer is too short round here to be stuck inside (ain't wireless internet just the best thing
)
We as sector worker bees don't really have an influence over people getting hired or not. Recently there has been a change within Nav Can regarding IFR ab-initio training.......it is now done regionally at the centres (this is a different topic alltogether). The program is still in it's infancy.......
As to actually checking somebody out, there is a QTP (Qualification Training Program) that must be adhered to that outlines the training process for live OJI, the level of performance that must be met at the end of each phase (normally 20 days per phase, but that depends upon speciality) by the trainee. And at the end of the day, the person giving the nod is going to have to work next to the guy or gal they are giving the licence to.
The instance you refer to regarding moving to different units is known as "Seniority Bidding" (kinda like the airlines). You can apply/bid for a move up the ladder to a new position based on your seniority (you can go backwards once in your career, for instance a move from YYZ Terminal to YHZ Terminal or YVR Tower to YWG Tower). Now, I profess I don't know all the ins and outs of it, but with respect to training there are return rights on placements where you could request to go back to your old unit (and requalify) if things weren't quite working out. And sometimes it's all very well bidding on a new position/to another centre, but if the speciality you're trying to get out of is short staffed, then chances are you won't be released. I'm sure somebody else who know the whole thing a little better can explain it better.
Now, I can only speak for Winnipeg Centre, but controllers not checking people out to "protect their overtime" is pure garbage. Overtime can be nice now and then (especially in Winter when it's -30 out), but there's only so much you can work without adversely affecting your health, your sanity and your personal life. Summer is too short round here to be stuck inside (ain't wireless internet just the best thing
)We as sector worker bees don't really have an influence over people getting hired or not. Recently there has been a change within Nav Can regarding IFR ab-initio training.......it is now done regionally at the centres (this is a different topic alltogether). The program is still in it's infancy.......
As to actually checking somebody out, there is a QTP (Qualification Training Program) that must be adhered to that outlines the training process for live OJI, the level of performance that must be met at the end of each phase (normally 20 days per phase, but that depends upon speciality) by the trainee. And at the end of the day, the person giving the nod is going to have to work next to the guy or gal they are giving the licence to.
The instance you refer to regarding moving to different units is known as "Seniority Bidding" (kinda like the airlines). You can apply/bid for a move up the ladder to a new position based on your seniority (you can go backwards once in your career, for instance a move from YYZ Terminal to YHZ Terminal or YVR Tower to YWG Tower). Now, I profess I don't know all the ins and outs of it, but with respect to training there are return rights on placements where you could request to go back to your old unit (and requalify) if things weren't quite working out. And sometimes it's all very well bidding on a new position/to another centre, but if the speciality you're trying to get out of is short staffed, then chances are you won't be released. I'm sure somebody else who know the whole thing a little better can explain it better.
Ohcirrej
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,919
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From: This is the internet FFS.........
I'm sure one or two pilots could address that question for you..........although I'm not sure where the year and a half comes from.
On completion of NCTI (VFR) or Regional Training School and commencement of OJI, salary commences.
On completion of NCTI (VFR) or Regional Training School and commencement of OJI, salary commences.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 9
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Sorry, I guess my question wasn't clear, because your answer made no sense; at least the first part.
It is my understanding that while in lovely Cornwall and then later at the assigned centre for training, you receive no pay (i.e. unpaid training). Once signed off, you begin to get paid salary. And this process could take as long as a year and a half. Unless you had no expenses or a wealthy spouse, it would be difficult to do for that long of a time. Is this the case or am I wrong?
It is my understanding that while in lovely Cornwall and then later at the assigned centre for training, you receive no pay (i.e. unpaid training). Once signed off, you begin to get paid salary. And this process could take as long as a year and a half. Unless you had no expenses or a wealthy spouse, it would be difficult to do for that long of a time. Is this the case or am I wrong?
