Rhetorical question about Airline Hiring
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Rhetorical question about Airline Hiring
You know generally I really abhor the immature comments of this site some times and I find myself at odds with this rhetorical question but her it goes.
I follow the job postings overseas on a regular basis and I can’t help but wonder what some of these people are smoking; just about every major operator other than in the USA is advertising for flight crews. I have to laugh when I see ad’s looking for F/O’s on A320, 330 or B737, 757 etc and they the usual T.Time and license requirements but then they go on to say we also require potential applicants to have a type rating and 500 or 1000 hrs PIC on type.
Let me get this straight you want someone who has a type rating and 500 hrs of PIC on type and you think that these people are out there and that if they actually have that experience that they will apply for your job posting? Are you people serious? What are you smoking? It’s no wonder there is such a demand for crews, I personally believe that it time for a few of these head hunters to click their heels and come back to planet earth.
Of coarse this is only my opinion and my observation, I also stated it’s a rhetorical question but does anyone else find this funny?
Merry Christmas and have a safe new year.
Slowstream
I follow the job postings overseas on a regular basis and I can’t help but wonder what some of these people are smoking; just about every major operator other than in the USA is advertising for flight crews. I have to laugh when I see ad’s looking for F/O’s on A320, 330 or B737, 757 etc and they the usual T.Time and license requirements but then they go on to say we also require potential applicants to have a type rating and 500 or 1000 hrs PIC on type.
Let me get this straight you want someone who has a type rating and 500 hrs of PIC on type and you think that these people are out there and that if they actually have that experience that they will apply for your job posting? Are you people serious? What are you smoking? It’s no wonder there is such a demand for crews, I personally believe that it time for a few of these head hunters to click their heels and come back to planet earth.
Of coarse this is only my opinion and my observation, I also stated it’s a rhetorical question but does anyone else find this funny?
Merry Christmas and have a safe new year.
Slowstream
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when one has airlines fold like C3 and Jetsgo Carrriers entice the licenced ones,or having 705 experience,into the fold ahead of'unrated'pilots,as they are an inexpensive.albeit trained commodity..Sure once the 'qualified'guys are 'used' up off the open market,flying time will again be used as the yardstick..(and the required 'bonds'to cover the training fees)..Mid East carriers are always enticing 'rated' people over there with the Big Bucks,but to spend a Career over there is something else..
slowstream,
I'm a bit inclined to agree with what you say and have often wondered about this subject. It would appear there is an endless supply of pilots with whatever qualifications you care to demand. I think if you wanted redheaded pilots with one green eye and one blue eye, you could get all you wanted by tomorrow morning. But is there really an endless supply of 737 captains walking the streets in the hunt and willing to accept poor pay/conditions ? So it would seem.
On the other hand, several countries appear to have rather ambitious plans for their airline structures. China, India, Turkey, and lately Russia are all claiming big expansion plans and needing pilots. Are there really enough "experienced" pilots available to make all these plans work ? Wish I knew.
All these plans come down to money; if they want to make the money they'll have to move the airplanes without crashing them. This will take a healthy supply of experienced pilots until such time as the local society can provide its own.
If they want pilots, they may have to start thinking outside their self-imposed boxes and revamp their idea of what they'll accept and are willing to pay to get it. They need to get rid of the age 60 thing ( I know !! I've heard all the thoughts of the younger guys ), they need to hire "experience" and not just "...typed, current, and XXXX hours PIC in type...", they need to part with some money and actually train people and give good T & C's to attact and hold the people they need to make the plans work. Maybe they don't need to do all that.
Of course, I"M SPEAKING PURELY FROM SELF-INTEREST, but they need to look at people who've been out of the cockpit for a bit and recognize the available pool of experience that is sitting idle due to some requirements which just don't make sense. Hire the experience, spend some money training, and make an effort to hold on to good people until such time as they aren't needed to make their plans work.
I freely admit I know that I don't know all the factors, so I'm just thinking out loud. But it seems to me there is an untapped supply of pilots available; they just need to start "tapping".
I'm a bit inclined to agree with what you say and have often wondered about this subject. It would appear there is an endless supply of pilots with whatever qualifications you care to demand. I think if you wanted redheaded pilots with one green eye and one blue eye, you could get all you wanted by tomorrow morning. But is there really an endless supply of 737 captains walking the streets in the hunt and willing to accept poor pay/conditions ? So it would seem.
On the other hand, several countries appear to have rather ambitious plans for their airline structures. China, India, Turkey, and lately Russia are all claiming big expansion plans and needing pilots. Are there really enough "experienced" pilots available to make all these plans work ? Wish I knew.
All these plans come down to money; if they want to make the money they'll have to move the airplanes without crashing them. This will take a healthy supply of experienced pilots until such time as the local society can provide its own.
If they want pilots, they may have to start thinking outside their self-imposed boxes and revamp their idea of what they'll accept and are willing to pay to get it. They need to get rid of the age 60 thing ( I know !! I've heard all the thoughts of the younger guys ), they need to hire "experience" and not just "...typed, current, and XXXX hours PIC in type...", they need to part with some money and actually train people and give good T & C's to attact and hold the people they need to make the plans work. Maybe they don't need to do all that.
Of course, I"M SPEAKING PURELY FROM SELF-INTEREST, but they need to look at people who've been out of the cockpit for a bit and recognize the available pool of experience that is sitting idle due to some requirements which just don't make sense. Hire the experience, spend some money training, and make an effort to hold on to good people until such time as they aren't needed to make their plans work.
I freely admit I know that I don't know all the factors, so I'm just thinking out loud. But it seems to me there is an untapped supply of pilots available; they just need to start "tapping".
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This is an excellent topic. Very frustrating, mind.
As with all things 'regulated', in most cases, the Regulating Authority holds the big stick. That is, what quals and exp will they accept from foreign pilots before they issue LVCs for a 'local' licence? In most cases, THEY set the requirement for the local carrier hiring foreign pilots. Which only serves to protect local pilots' jobs (or future jobs).
What do we Canadian pilots do to protect our own limited market? Based on personal observation, I'd say not much.
Compounding the problem when using these idiotic 'agencies' is the recency or currency or PPC issues that ALWAYS come up. If you aren't current, you can pretty much forget it! If you can't submit a PPC, forget it! Even though here in Canada you can't get a PPC unless you fly for an Air Carrier.
Catch 22 my friend.
...and PARC spelled backwards is???
The tide will turn.
As with all things 'regulated', in most cases, the Regulating Authority holds the big stick. That is, what quals and exp will they accept from foreign pilots before they issue LVCs for a 'local' licence? In most cases, THEY set the requirement for the local carrier hiring foreign pilots. Which only serves to protect local pilots' jobs (or future jobs).
What do we Canadian pilots do to protect our own limited market? Based on personal observation, I'd say not much.
Compounding the problem when using these idiotic 'agencies' is the recency or currency or PPC issues that ALWAYS come up. If you aren't current, you can pretty much forget it! If you can't submit a PPC, forget it! Even though here in Canada you can't get a PPC unless you fly for an Air Carrier.
Catch 22 my friend.
...and PARC spelled backwards is???
The tide will turn.
Willie,
What you say is dead-on. I guess the question that keeps popping up in my mind is when do economically-driven circumstances reach the point where governments have to change their rules to make the economic situation work ?
After all, money is what makes the world spin, and if governments make rules, they can change them. Rules are just ink spots on paper. Things just haven't reached that point yet...if they ever will.
As for the PPC thing, I've seen very experienced guys come back from 5 years off the line, go to school and perform as if they'd done it all yesterday. Given enough experience, requal just isn't an real issue.
What you say is dead-on. I guess the question that keeps popping up in my mind is when do economically-driven circumstances reach the point where governments have to change their rules to make the economic situation work ?
After all, money is what makes the world spin, and if governments make rules, they can change them. Rules are just ink spots on paper. Things just haven't reached that point yet...if they ever will.
As for the PPC thing, I've seen very experienced guys come back from 5 years off the line, go to school and perform as if they'd done it all yesterday. Given enough experience, requal just isn't an real issue.
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bafanguy
When I came home my IR was expired and I had to do it all over again from Instrument Written to the ME-IFR checkride. Even though I'd been current and valid on my foreign licence the entire time I was away our Transport people hadn't given me a checkride so my Cdn IR was invalid. So, we have our own ridiculous rules as well.
In the States a B737 Type Rating is a B737 Type Rating. In Canada, we have three different B737 TRs. What does that prove? About the only thing it proves with a 737 is that Analog and Digital are different. Different enough for three separate Ratings? Apparently.
As with most economics arguments, they rarely makes sense to the layman and most bean counters will shoot down most of our arguments any way.
Look at some of the overseas carriers that are hiring at present. About the only ones NOT concerned with your showing up Type Rated with 500 hr on type are the ones with their own Training Centers. Singapore, Cathay, Emirates, Gulf Air. The situation is changing and will continue to change. China Airlines have to park aircraft because they are short Pilots. That kind of economics will go on for only so long. Lost income will smarten these outfits up. But, you have to be patient. How patient depends on how close to retirement you are.
Next year the MPL gets into full swing. This will take a zero time pilot to 300 hours and a RHS Type Rating in a B737 or A320. This is what the airlines have been asking for and this is what the airlines will be getting. To get into the program you must be between 21 and 27. Pass the physical. Must have a University degree and successfully pass the airline 'screening' tests. Once you pass this screening criteria you get trained. By the time you are issued an MPL you will be right seat qualified in an airliner. The downside is you won't be able to rent a C172 because your MPL doesn't cover the type.
Once graduates of this program enter the market you can forget about your airline career because the cost of an MPL is estimated to be 85,000 Euros. When an airline spends that kind of money on a First Officer you can bet that F/O will be first in line and this will only serve to make finding a job even more difficult than it is at present becaue the airline will recruit, screen and train the number of pilots they require and not have to rely on the outside fluctuations of pilot supply. I'm not ready to argue the pros and cons of the MPL cause I'm not sure it's a good thing or a bad thing.
So, if you're flying for somebody now I'd think a person would be well advised to pretty much stay where he/she is cause it's only going to get tougher.
When I came home my IR was expired and I had to do it all over again from Instrument Written to the ME-IFR checkride. Even though I'd been current and valid on my foreign licence the entire time I was away our Transport people hadn't given me a checkride so my Cdn IR was invalid. So, we have our own ridiculous rules as well.
In the States a B737 Type Rating is a B737 Type Rating. In Canada, we have three different B737 TRs. What does that prove? About the only thing it proves with a 737 is that Analog and Digital are different. Different enough for three separate Ratings? Apparently.
As with most economics arguments, they rarely makes sense to the layman and most bean counters will shoot down most of our arguments any way.
Look at some of the overseas carriers that are hiring at present. About the only ones NOT concerned with your showing up Type Rated with 500 hr on type are the ones with their own Training Centers. Singapore, Cathay, Emirates, Gulf Air. The situation is changing and will continue to change. China Airlines have to park aircraft because they are short Pilots. That kind of economics will go on for only so long. Lost income will smarten these outfits up. But, you have to be patient. How patient depends on how close to retirement you are.
Next year the MPL gets into full swing. This will take a zero time pilot to 300 hours and a RHS Type Rating in a B737 or A320. This is what the airlines have been asking for and this is what the airlines will be getting. To get into the program you must be between 21 and 27. Pass the physical. Must have a University degree and successfully pass the airline 'screening' tests. Once you pass this screening criteria you get trained. By the time you are issued an MPL you will be right seat qualified in an airliner. The downside is you won't be able to rent a C172 because your MPL doesn't cover the type.
Once graduates of this program enter the market you can forget about your airline career because the cost of an MPL is estimated to be 85,000 Euros. When an airline spends that kind of money on a First Officer you can bet that F/O will be first in line and this will only serve to make finding a job even more difficult than it is at present becaue the airline will recruit, screen and train the number of pilots they require and not have to rely on the outside fluctuations of pilot supply. I'm not ready to argue the pros and cons of the MPL cause I'm not sure it's a good thing or a bad thing.
So, if you're flying for somebody now I'd think a person would be well advised to pretty much stay where he/she is cause it's only going to get tougher.
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Willie,
Why did you have to do your Instrument Written exam if you were current on your foreign licence? If you have maintained an IFR rating on a foreign licence and come back to Canada, all you have to do is show proof of maintaining your foreign IFR and you are exempt from writing the INRAT. All you have to do is complete an Instrument ride. If you did the INRAT, then you either had poor information or did not maintain a foreign IFR.
Why did you have to do your Instrument Written exam if you were current on your foreign licence? If you have maintained an IFR rating on a foreign licence and come back to Canada, all you have to do is show proof of maintaining your foreign IFR and you are exempt from writing the INRAT. All you have to do is complete an Instrument ride. If you did the INRAT, then you either had poor information or did not maintain a foreign IFR.
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jurassic is correct unless Willie was flying in a non-ICAO State, like Taiwan for example. Politics is a petty, disgusting business, but that's the rule.
I have a lot of friends over there and they need to not let their Canadian IFR expire for more than one year, or it's INRAT time again. (Shudder! I wonder if I still have Peter Shewring's study notes around anywhere?)
I have a lot of friends over there and they need to not let their Canadian IFR expire for more than one year, or it's INRAT time again. (Shudder! I wonder if I still have Peter Shewring's study notes around anywhere?)
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Having been the "victim" of the INRAT trap, I can tell you that Peter Shewring's courses are still available and still worth every penny...
I was oversea's for 4 years. I did my Medical with a Transport Canada approved Dr. and paid him the fee's to cover the Fed's requirement. I was typed on the Airbus in both Hong Kong on their license and on my Canadian ATPL.
I fell afoul of the reg's when I returned to Canada. My last sim oversea's was a type rating and not an instrument ride. By the time I had finished the ground training, sim, and line check with my new company, greater than a year had passed, and the authorities had concluded that my IFR had lapsed and I needed to re-write the INRAT...
Never mind that I was newly typed in the 737. That I had completed the IFR portion successfully and that I satisfied the requirements according to Transport Canada to operate the 737 in passenger service... An "i" wasn't dotted and a "t" not crossed... I had to write the INRAT...
That was a number of years ago, so hopefully the "Powers that be" have revised their thinking in this matter, but if anyone is considering returning home, I would do so after you have done an IFR renewal at your current place of employment...
Happy New Year to all...
I was oversea's for 4 years. I did my Medical with a Transport Canada approved Dr. and paid him the fee's to cover the Fed's requirement. I was typed on the Airbus in both Hong Kong on their license and on my Canadian ATPL.
I fell afoul of the reg's when I returned to Canada. My last sim oversea's was a type rating and not an instrument ride. By the time I had finished the ground training, sim, and line check with my new company, greater than a year had passed, and the authorities had concluded that my IFR had lapsed and I needed to re-write the INRAT...
Never mind that I was newly typed in the 737. That I had completed the IFR portion successfully and that I satisfied the requirements according to Transport Canada to operate the 737 in passenger service... An "i" wasn't dotted and a "t" not crossed... I had to write the INRAT...
That was a number of years ago, so hopefully the "Powers that be" have revised their thinking in this matter, but if anyone is considering returning home, I would do so after you have done an IFR renewal at your current place of employment...
Happy New Year to all...
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jurassic
I returned to the Great White North a number of years ago. If what you say is the current reality, then things have changed. That's good news for those who will return in the years ahead.
As for my foreign licence, I was req'd by the local State regs to do the usual sim visits every six months, route checks and base checks, PPC and IR renewal all documented in my "certified" logbook. I even had a British CAA TRE/IRE offer to do my Cdn checks which TC promptly rejected.
When I got back, the only exceptions to the regs were Cdn Air Force pilots trained to Instrument Standards (or something like that) and Second Officers employed by Air Carriers requiring S/Os. Thems the facts, gleaned whilst arguing with Personnel Licencing in two regional offices and HQ back in the day.
Sounds like it's better today than it was back then. At least some things imporve.
I returned to the Great White North a number of years ago. If what you say is the current reality, then things have changed. That's good news for those who will return in the years ahead.
As for my foreign licence, I was req'd by the local State regs to do the usual sim visits every six months, route checks and base checks, PPC and IR renewal all documented in my "certified" logbook. I even had a British CAA TRE/IRE offer to do my Cdn checks which TC promptly rejected.
When I got back, the only exceptions to the regs were Cdn Air Force pilots trained to Instrument Standards (or something like that) and Second Officers employed by Air Carriers requiring S/Os. Thems the facts, gleaned whilst arguing with Personnel Licencing in two regional offices and HQ back in the day.
Sounds like it's better today than it was back then. At least some things imporve.
