Bermudatriangle

Your essay describes your job but it also describes cabin crew everywhere. However I did recognise many parts of it which apply to BA crew. You are probably insulting colleagues in other airlines though by your insistence you are the best. What are you basing this on?! In my recent experience with other airlines their crew are just as competent and good at their jobs.

Customer survey results are great, but who chooses the customer... the CSD, who is hardly likely to give out a form to someone who is kicking off because his special meal isn't on board... :)

BTW, You missed out the scramble to finish the service so the cabin blinds can be pulled down and bunk rest can begin.... on a daylight New York! ;)

I write this not to antagonise but to point out that WW is coming after your t's & c's. Cabin crew are recognised as the best remunerated group in BA and you will find yourselves under pressure from mgt very soon, you guys need to think of ways to be more efficient to make the budget savings they are demanding. :sad:

Best remunerated given your job within BA - for example Willie Walsh is actually paid less than most people in a similar position across the world.

The Pilots at BA are paid more than at VS I believe but then VS are limited to working 750hrs a year as opposed to 900. Compare the Nigels (sorry Chaps) to airline Pilots at competitors across on the continent and you will find they are, more often than not, paid less.

This Cannot be said of BA Cabin Crew. That is the point people are getting at.

NOW TO CLARIFY - I don't begrudge BA CC that for a second BUT because of this fact you are, as a group, directly in the firing line fro cuts and the only thing you can do is negotiate to protect as much of what you have as is possible (there will be some sacrifices, but to think this hasn't happened to many departments at BA is wrong), IA, or its threat, will only hurt BA's balance sheet further and therefore strengthen the resolve of Willie Walsh.

I have not said once that anyone should happily hand over their wages BUT BASSA is going about this situation completely the wrong way if it wants to achieve anything other than financial strife for BA, or, a step up of the speed at which adverse changes (for CC) come about.

Just to get this into perspective.

All departments have been given cost savings measures. Some have been told how they are to achieve them, some not.

Flt Ops has been give a per capita saving well in excess of the IFS saving. Whilst this may be a smaller percentile loss of gross pay it still is in excess of IFS. Add to the mix that very few pilots are on the magical top wage layer. In fact we still have many Self Sponsored Pilots who would be very happy with an £1800 take home before and cost savings measures kick in. Any cuts will affect all personnel and all departments are affected.

Engineering has had manpower reductions. Possible redundancies in IM, overseas staff, call centres, Marketing, Sales, Check-in, customer services, managerial staff, tele-services, acquisitions, hedging services, ground handling, loading, allocations, baggage handling the list goes on. The push back drivers have been told they are to lose their department altogether and be merged with loading. That's after some of these guys have worked for years to get to their positions, a position which requires great skill and professionalism.

All of those departments plus smaller ones have been given their targets to meet and their pain to take. As far as I know they are all gearing up to shoulder their collective responsibility in the current climate.

Now, consider their annoyance when a vocal minority group from on department start crowing that they would rather see the company taken down, the company that we all work for, rather than take a cut in their, already acknowledged, over market forces terms and conditions.

I will leave you to think where the sympathy, from both other employees and the press, will be?

Wobble2plank...Good post.
I worked in a call centre which was closed nearly 5 years and then eventually got a job at a Regional Airport which had been recently outsourced with regards to ground handling.
All in all there were several 100 BA employees who had given years & years of good service who found themseves with life changing decisions to make.
Many other departments have taken the hit over the years and it would appear logical now that every department takes their share of the pain in order for us all to succeed.
My partner is crew so I take no joy in facing uncertain times & I also would say that the crew life would not be for me.

I think this new contract looks great.I never got any good trips in the past.

Overstress:

Well said about the mad scramble for putting the window blinds down and getting onto crew rest!! Almost 99% of flights I did, the most important thing was crew rest, I have even done a service in the dark cause the purser didn't want to wake anyone, but ended up doing it all again on the 40min call!!! Its absolutely NUTS!!

NO disrespect guys, but the passenger comes first, not how long it takes you to 'throw' out a service and get on rest!!!

And yes, all cabin crew in every airline are there to do the same job, the justification for exceptional pay at BA is what exactly??? I accept when you are at the top end of the better airlines that there may be a small differenece, but come the diff at BA is huge!!!

PTC, I am gravely concerned you feel guilt for all the money you received during your 11 months with BA WW. I have a conscience soothing plan for you. Get the cash, put it in an envelope and send it to Waterside marked for the attention of Willie himself.Mark it "Salvation Fund." I have to say you do sound most conscientious. I hope you are in the holdpool for another go at it. Let's hope the T & C s are more to your liking next time. Hang on a minute, how come you did'nt avoid all that cash and head on down to LGW where the money is more to your liking?

Pinkaroo:
Its not about guilt, im mearly putting my opinion across on this subject. I have really enjoyed my time at BA, but as I have already said, Ive worked for other major carriers and in comparison, the T+C's at BA are extremley generous!! Im not grudging anyone taking that, but I can see where the savings could be made!!

FYI- If I was closer to LGW then I would have gone there!! As I would much prefer mixed fleet flying out of a smaller base, but hey ho, thats all down to where I live im afraid, not money!!
Oh and whilst we are on the subject, I recently flew out of LGW and the crew were fantastic and didn't have any grumbles about how their life is 'so bad' down there!! I think most actually quite like it!!!

Finally, yes I am conscientious, always have been and always will be , even after 15 years of flying, thats not a bad thing is it???

Wobble, I am not seeking to compare T&Cs for the sake of it. I just want you to realise that if you have some financial " fat" you can afford to slim if you really must, and I hope you do not have to, but when you are already fully financially committed the cause and effect is more traumatic. As for the importance of Aircraft Commander, well you earned it, good luck to you but do not forget others are not so financially rewarded but still want to live to a good standard. There is a considerable gap in the relationship between either side of the flightdeck door and blame can be laid in many directions. All I am concerned about is that in the rush to seemingly appease the management of this company those who are seemingly least respected are not trampled underfoot.

Always those who look at people who earn more as being easier able to afford the loss. Sorry, but that just isn't true. We all live to our means, we don't naturally all live on the bread line and then place whatever 'fat' is over into a big 'lets keep that for when the downturn comes' bank account.

I think you will find that the cost cutting will affect everyone, just those who have larger wages will have bigger bills to pay and as a percentage of total income, exactly the same pain.

Wobble, I will reiterate my position. I do not wish you to lose a bean of your earnings. I expect your contract to be honoured. I just don't want to see others, more financially vulnerable, robbed by a company with one eye on the cheap shoddy contracts endured by the employees of the likes of MOL etc. This country has been intentionally dumbed down and short changed by European practices. That sh!t Blair was allowed to turn us over by the short sighted voters who believed he cared about them. I bet MOL and WW enjoy a glass of the black stuff and swap tips on how to screw the last penny, on a short term basis, from a flying cash cow. There has been alot of talk about overpaid BA crew. We all know the cost of living in this overtaxed corner of the country. Is it just possible the crews of other companies are being underpaid?

interesting views
 

Very good point . it made very good reading to know that BA PILOTS lost the battle against BA with regards to Holiday pay and for the third time too . very good to know that only few months ago , BA pilots were threatening the company with strikes when they were about to launch open skies .
How much does a BA Captain get when drafted?
why does BA need a captain and 2 CO pilots on certain routes ?
BA MUST BE LOOKING AT ALL AREAS , AND IF IT HAPPENS TO Flight attendants , it could happen to Flight crew and nothing can stop them regarding of any agreement in place .
This is just an observation .
also another area is hotels , why should the union be involved , all you need is a room ? why executive rooms ? why Internet ? why in the centre of town ? why Breakfast when you paid ?
is it true that BA flight crew still get an allowance to pay for drinks for all his team?
Is it true that BA flight crew only pay very little to go on flights on a jump seat but as they email their collegues they get a better seat.
Speaking to a Virgin Captain and an easy jet pilot I was told that BA pilots are paid a lot more than they are and they don t get half of the perks .
the bizarre thing I heard is that if BA employs and pay low cost salaries , means they won t be enough money paid to the pension fund as they earn very little so their contribution would be very minimal and that it could lead to further pension deficits to the BA pot .
The worrying thing i heard that if BA go on a low cost model , it will no longer be a blue chip company and it could turn to British Airways ltd , rather than PLC .

How much does a BA Captain get when drafted?

As with all overtime for flight crew, it depends on how senior said Captain is, and how many hours the trip attracts. If you're looking for a bite here, I'm a little unsure of what your point is.

why does BA need a captain and 2 CO pilots on certain routes ?

For exactly the same reasons that certain routes require the crew to have a minimum of 3 hrs horizontal rest. It's a mandated requirement from the CAA to extend duty. Oh, and before anyone says we get more crew than scheme requires on certain routes, well, by the same token we carry more cabin crew than are the legally mandated minimum

BA MUST BE LOOKING AT ALL AREAS , AND IF IT HAPPENS TO Flight attendants , it could happen to Flight crew and nothing can stop them regarding of any agreement in place .

Indeed, and I rather think that's been the thrust of many of the posts on here

also another area is hotels , why should the union be involved , all you need is a room ? why executive rooms ? why Internet ? why in the centre of town ? why Breakfast when you paid ?
is it true that BA flight crew still get an allowance to pay for drinks for all his team?

Why shouldn't the unions be involved. All of us (and I mean the whole team on the a/c) need more than just a room. That room has to be quiet, comfortable and dark. Not all hotels fulfill that requirement. Executive rooms? Not a stipulation at all. Sometimes they are given, but they're certainly not in any contractual agreement (and yes, I'm aware of the upgrade agreement but no hotel is obliged to offer better rooms to any crew member).

We don't get free internet. Simple as. Some hotels offer it but, again it's not contractual.

Centre of town? Well, because, believe it or not, airport hotels aren't any cheaper and are a lot more vulnerable to interruption of contract. After all, which airport hotel wouldn't take the big money for their rooms when a number of flights are cancelled due to weather, for example?

Free breakfast? Not in years. Not in absolutely years. I seem to remember it happened last at LGW and that was dispensed with after the last pay deal.

Is it true that BA flight crew only pay very little to go on flights on a jump seat but as they email their collegues they get a better seat.

Two questions there. Captains may use an ID61 for domestic jumpseats. That's it. No-one else gets anything other than staff travel, SFO, CSD, PSR or STD/SDSS. As to your second point, everyone (and I mean everyone from engineers, check-in, cabin crew to the flight crew you strive so desperately to make a point about) e-mails, texts, writes to, their colleagues in an attempt to be made more comfortable on the flight. Don't tell me for a moment you wouldn't do the same.

Speaking to a Virgin Captain and an easy jet pilot I was told that BA pilots are paid a lot more than they are and they don t get half of the perks .

Yes and VS pilots (I believe but will happily be corrected) work to a 750hr contract and we work to 900hrs. That's 10 JFK and back a year more. Averaged out, the pay's similar and the perks are almost identical. Still, that never stops the bar fuelled notion that the grass is always greener and BA pilots do 1 trip a month between bathing in Krug and washing the Ferrari using £50 notes as chamois leathers. Who am I kidding? Wash my own Ferrari? Perish the risible notion.

the bizarre thing I heard is that if BA employs and pay low cost salaries , means they won t be enough money paid to the pension fund as they earn very little so their contribution would be very minimal and that it could lead to further pension deficits to the BA pot .

Not an issue. Understand that the pension effectively exists outwith the airline and the pension with a deficit has been closed to new joiners for some years now. New entrants bear the full fiscal responsibility for their pension. Notwithstanding that, even if your postulation were true, BA wouldn't care. Every time the pension goes into serious freefall, we renegotiate the terms and conditions of the pension, not the salary.

The worrying thing i heard that if BA go on a low cost model , it will no longer be a blue chip company and it could turn to British Airways ltd , rather than PLC

Only difference I can find between the two is that to be a PLC you must have in excess of £50,000 in publicly traded shares. I think we can all agree that BA have a smidge more than that floating around the FTSE. In fairness also, I don't think we can regard BA as blue chip any more, in fact not for a long long time. Our credit rating with the likes of S and P is in the toilet and not likely to improve any time soon. That's the reality of the situation we all face as employees of this airline.

Well, there we are, I bit didn't I? But your post exemplifies one of the biggest problems we have in BA. Buckets of hearsay, lots of envy (in all directions, I hasten to add) and the most dysfunctional set of relationships I've ever seen outside of the king of scratters' world that is Jeremy Kyle.

Frankly if I'd half the money that people on here would like to think I had, I'd be gone from BA in a heartbeat.

I can't be troubled to read through all the posts, but what I do say is from a passenger's viewpoint: I fly BA because of the superior service and if your master's plan to cut your numbers how can you continue to provide that superior service?

Justin,

whilst this is not a dig at any of BA CC, a few being very good friends of mine, you will find (as I have said a few times here) that BA will not be found in the top 5 of the recent rankings published.

However the airlines above them have lower T&Cs - doing the job better and cheaper. The fact that BA are based in the UK with higher charges - taxes etc unfortunately does not warm the cockles of the accountants hearts.

WW knows this.

High Heels, I thought BA were voted best Transatlantic carrier?

Not forgetting the glowing reports for customer satisfaction with Terminal 5.Also record punctuality figures for T5 over the last few weeks.BA have many things to be proud of,their inflight service and crew being one of them.

A nice article about WW in this weeks Spectator. He does seem switched on and I fear we may have to lump it in the end.

It's fairly well known that those awards for 'Best This' and 'Best That' are largely irrelevant. They are normally awarded by industry organisations (eg publications) which have a vested interest in promoting certain companies over others, especially when they spend large amounts of money with that publication on advertising for example.

Companies don't rely on the awards they receive to indicate customer satisfaction or service shortcomings, proper market research is required.

Awards are good for a bit of PR, and that's about it - they're useless in trying to establish true performance.

Having made that statement, now provide the evidence and the link to substantiate that remark.

The communication from the trade unions states that a joint meeting was held with BA on thursday.All unions representing the combined workforces and management proposed several "temporary" measures to help BA through ,what is a "temporary" financial downturn,covering the next 2 years.This was approved by all unions,with the exception of BALPA.I find this hard to understand,as at times like this,a united position carries a lot more weight than a fragmented one.The proposals suggested an equal sharing of temporary cost savings across all departments,a fair position in my opinion.The unions are awaiting BA's response to their proposal,let's hope a sensible compromise can be agreed upon.

I understand from someone whom was there that WW chose to leave with the words

BALPA were not made privy to the UNITEs ideas prior to the meeting so a bit difficult to give them a blank cheque in terms of support.

Any more untruths from the BASSA forum you wish to be quashed bermudatriangle?

Can anybody give an accurate account of the process of benchmarking and list the factors taken into account in arriving at the figure the company then takes forward to the union meeting please?

You need to know the result of Benchmarking before you propose it as a negotiating tool.

Gaz

So what is BALPAs position regarding BAs proposals? I find it incredible that UNITE and the GMB did not brief BALPA in advance. How difficult can it be to ensure all parties attending a workng group are prepared?

QRS, You assume cooperation exists then?

No, I'm not assuming anything. Cooperation probably only exists when it suits. The only assumption I am making is that Da Dog's post is accurate.
That being the case, cooperation or not, GMB and UNITE would have nothing to lose by keeping BALPA in the picture. Whether BALPA then choose to offer their support....that's another matter.

British Airways has been voted the UK's most trusted airline.

In an annual survey by Reader's Digest, BA comfortably beat Virgin


From the Mail on Sunday (April12). If it is in the RD it must be right!

The Unite proposals to BA didn't include proposals for the pilots, so it would be difficult for Balpa to make public support for proposals specific to other work groups only.

Balpa don't negotiate through the BATUC anyway.

A different spin
 

Lets forget, for a moment that we're talking about BA.

Lets pretend we all work for 'Waterstones' for example.

You've worked there for 10 years or so. Very diligently.

Your bosses (whom are paid to manage the business) make several c***-ups (all the time actually) that end up costing the business nearly £500m. - between opening up a new store that goes t**s up and then gets a fine for not operating ethically. This is also PR disaster and the company is disgraced.

He calls you in, as says 'we've gotta save money' so I'm gonna cut you wages by £500 A MONTH forever. Other departments will suffer a pay freeze for a couple of years, but your changes will be permanent.

Would you say 'hey great idea' or would you defend your position?

A simple yes or no answer will do.

:sad:

If that were what is happening I would say no - but it isn't and I think you know that really.

WORLD'S BEST CABIN STAFF 2009
Rank
Airline
1
Malaysia Airlines
2
Asiana Airlines
3
Thai Airways
4
Singapore Airlines
5
Cathay Pacific

© Skytrax


That aside really as has been mentioned these are kinda irrelevant awards - however for a fact all the crew on that list do their jobs for a lot less than either of the two old fleets at LHR.

But as has been said this isn't a debate over how much you get paid it is a debate about how efficient you are as employees.

EF don't work hard enough ona a day to day basis though are efficient during disruption. WW are the opposite - this is what the company have said and what to be honest nobody can argue with - solution change this and then maybe the other departments' staff may be more behind your cause.

Da Dog, what are we supposed to do? Accept it? If they were gunning for the pilots in the same fashion, I doubt you would all lay over and why should you?

Even without BASSA preaching, the writting is on the wall mate. 'New Fleet'. New contract. We've all seen the offer. 'Take it or leave it'. It doesn't take a genius to work it out.

EYXW,has it occured to you that the cost of living in malaysia or thailand is a world apart from the southeast of England ??Comparing who is best at what and where from has many factors to consider.Service industries in asia generally offer exceptional standards,as they pride themselves on the service model.However,to then suggest that they perform their duties at a lower rate of pay than employees in the UK might require, has no bearing on the arguement.If employee costs were a top priority,no company would employ anyone in the UK,France,Germany,USA,Italy,Ireland,the list just goes on and on.The only employees would be from third world or developing countries,clearly ludicrous.We have to accept that living and working in the western, major economies is expensive,for both employees and employers.The system works so long as the cash circulates,be it at the top end of the market.Currently that cash flow is dwindling,with the serious effects we are all witnessing.That cash flow will eventually return and my hope is that BA employees have not been reduced to rates of pay that make living in the UK,virtually impossible.

Crunchy.. your posting is spot on!

EYXW.. :hmm:

If that were what is happening I would say no - but it isn't and I think you know that really.

What isn`t happening then? Tell me what you think is happening then?
as for skytrax :bored:

Productivity and Crew efficiency, is based on many factors i.e. -trip planning, flight timings, scheduling and trip software used, and not forgetting the skill base used to produce the rosters.

CC should not be blamed for productivity, which is currently out of their control, and could vastly be improved by those in charge.

As for outdated contracts. There are many CC contracts within the BA folder. The longer you have been in service, the more restrictive and better paid the contract tends to be. These contracts will all disappear with time. Nevertheless CC recruited in the last 7 years do not enjoy such spoils, and these new contracts do allow for alot of flexiability to the employer. The basic is very low. CC are very dependent on allowances to support their income.

WW and Management, have not offered the CC Community a reasonable alternative payment system. Instead found ways to destroy the goodwill of the CC, and it is quite obvious, they are going to try change T&C's at any cost. SO... YES.. I DO SUPPORT BASSA :ok:, who else is going to look after us. Crunchy is right. I say NO to unreasonable offers.

Industrial Action may follow, but it is not the CC spoiling for a fight. Most CC do not wish any form of Industrial Action, but they do wish to be able to afford a roof over their head and food on the table, a wage above the breadline.


BEST CABIN STAFF RESULTS - BY WORLD REGIONS - Western Europe

1. British Airways - Skytrax 2009 :)

The current industrial agreement on EF, is not the ' big bug bear'. It is a set of mostly reasonable rules set to protect the CC from being over worked, to ensure the well being and safety of everyone onboard. Many trips which have one sector out and one back the following day, with no links, is not a result of the IA preventing the crew from being able to continue, but rather 'poor trip planning'. Yes, Carmen will roster you 900 hours, if that is the parameter , it will also roster 700 if programmed to do so. Hours are rostered according to work available and crew at hand. Industrial Agreement allows an individual crew to be rostered upto 60 hours in a week.. it is hardly restrictive.

That is in BA's hands, it could give them serverance, it managed to give
it's managers a golden handshake.

That is where my friend you are sadly mistaken, and I need to take your blindfold off... Our salary is very much minimum wage.

As for meaningful change. Reducing crew heads, will not fix missing bags, solve open skies, or improve customer service. As long as the bean counters run the airlines, the customer will suffer. But enough said.
I am not in control, As you rightly said BASSA, will determine my future.

Flying or duty hours?

From both sides of the table that is an interesting thought.....