BA's Cabin Crew and Pilots and ground staff are up there with the best and contrary to what i read on these forums actually get on very well.There not all perfect but overall they give an excellent service in what is (currently) a premier full service airline.

WWs decision to offer severance to all his management was a clear indication that he has no confidence in his management team and in turn this is being fed down to the lower ranks.

Tough decisions have to be made in this climate but one does have to question his (and his Chairmans) man management skills and the way they go about their business.

Time for a change at the top ?

I love all this stuff about just putting up with cuts, blah , blah, savings have to be made- take some cuts and then if you don't like it - hang up your cabin bag!!! LOL

This sort of stuff is a joke.

Thirty years of Thatcherite brainwashing- just because the cabin crew want to maintain a standard of living which is well below that of pilots by the way, they have to be insulted and told that the cuts are necessary.

What a load of neo-liberal claptrap.

Bosses exist to make profit for shareholders. That's all. They are the enemy. If possible, they would have us fly for £1 an hour.

But this is not about cabin crew- it's about protecting the rights of everyone to a decent living. That means ALL workers.

If BA promised to pay such and such, you might well have gone out and got a mortgage or paid for school fees etc whatever. Now they turn round and say- oh, we are going to take that away from you, after all the profit you have made for bosses over the years.

This is a DIRECT ATTACK on YOUR life cc - don't forget that for one second.

QUESTION: IF BA made such a huge profit a couple of years ago- why won't they do the same when the recession ends? Will the Ts&Cs then be restored? No. Of course not. What a surprise.....

You must fight all the way this time- this is the end game.

stormin norman,

It is, as always, a very vocal minority placarding the more wise majority with disinformation gleaned from misinformation.

As to why flight crew are reading this (BASSA?) forum, well it is quite simple. BASSA are making direct threats against our employer. If we don't get what we want we are going to bring down the company? I have seen better constructed arguments in a junior school playground.

This whole sorry mess smells distinctly of the dying days of the toothless National Union of Miners that led to the death of the industry in the UK.

Personally I do not want to see that happen to my industry and I think that there are a vast amount of CC, FC, loaders, ground handlers, ground staff, managers, checkin stafff etc. etc. etc. who have very little sympathy with the 1500 from BASSA's 'biggest ever meeting'.

Good luck.

Oddly enough, other CC don't find the NEW terms so onerous:


http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/368...new-fleet.html

Infact they seem to find the T's & C's above most comparable airlines AFTER the cut.

It takes the text speak skills of a few BASSA die hards to twist the fabric of the economic crisis into a war call to bring the capitalist scum down!!!! (unless we retain our previous working conditions of course).

Sigh

Mincer's public profile - joined 3 April 2009

So, his communistic views will mean that he of course is not one of the BASSA top-feeding trolls. All his rhetoric about Thatcherism etc - well just remember that Bliar et al have been in power since 1997.

Seriously cabin colleagues, do not underestimate the resolve of Willie Walsh on this fight - he will (and can) put you on notice of contract which will probably result in you all having to re-apply for your jobs on the new contract rather than on a changed old contract. It is time for your 'leaders' in BASSA to demonstrate leadership rather than just whip up a frenzy only to let you down at the end of the day, as has recently been happening.

I have no doubt that as of yesterdays meeting that you all feel elated and buoyed up as to what can be achieved and that all will well. I have news for you all - IT WON'T.

WW is out for a result, you telling him by 1508 votes to 0 that you don't like him/should go/is not a nice little leprechaun will not change anything.

TEMPORARY cuts will not be tolerated by any group - yes it's tough to accept, but that is where we all are. Now tell your reps to represent you and NEGOTIATE the least painful way of delivering the savings before a more painful solution is IMPOSED on you.

This is probably the only statement on the thread which won't cause a disagreement.:rolleyes:

Mincer,

I'm sorry but I don't think even you can follow your own rhetoric???

You harp on about the evils of Thatcherism coupled with the devil known as capitalism yet you insist on holding on to terms and conditions deeply rooted in both of those?

The current CC contract stems back from the day when only the wealthy could fly, they expected silver service in a pre Al Qaeda world and the most luxurious that wealth could buy. To entice people into this working environment the companies used money and perks, two of the corner stones of capitalism.

Now, you state that you despise those two words and they are trying to destroy you without grasping that your current employment, pay and terms and conditions are DIRECTLY A PRODUCT OF THEM.

Before spouting rhetoric you should at least be aware of where it comes from and what it means prior to attempting to foist it onto others in a Trotskyite manner of a union prole.

hmmm wonder where wobble works?

Thanks for the effort to inject a touch of armchair academia into this, what on earth Trotsky has to do with it goodness knows.

Neoliberals will destroy your life and others around the world in the name of globalisation and never-ending profit. that's their job.

The key point is:

When BA were making profit then this was not a problem.

Yes, let's take action to ride out the storm and once the good times return, we can go back to the usual Ts & Cs.

Please try not to listen to the management stuff or read the daily newspapers and propaganda which you are fed on a daily basis, try to think for yourself.

Mincer,

What you fail to grasp in your ramblings is that the disparity between the BA cabin crew and all other cabin crew has been growing larger and larger every year. Many management structures have either not had the balls or the inclination to deal with it.

When the VA CC threatened a strike over T's & C's then the Bearded one quite pointedly told them if they wanted more pay for the same job then go to BA.

Unfortunately, as is often the case with cancer, the longer you ignore it the more insidious and deep rooted it becomes until it reaches a critical point where painful surgery and radical treatment is required.

In your 'lets ride out the bad times and return to the good times when it's over' just doesn't exist any more. BASSA have seen this coming over years and years and, like a petulant child have stuck their collective fingers in their ears and shouted 'na na na' until the nasty man has gone away. Constructive discussion could have had the company at a point by now where all departments were aligned in contract instead of a big sore thumb sticking up. Even the other threads on this board are saying they will work under the new T's & C's. LGW already do. It is just a minority of you can't see how well you've milked your hated 'neo liberal' machine.

Wake up and smell the coffee. WW will dispense 90 days no longer required on your old contract. Perfectly legal. If you wish to return to work then sign the new contract. It could have been so different.

Instead of your 'don't listen' approach, maybe you ought to have a look at the real world from over the parapet of your BASSA bunker. It has move on and left militants like you well, well behind.

Wake up a smell the coffee!!
 

or in the case of Easyjet CC from today wake up and smell your own coffee. A number of papers reporting that Easyjet has stopped CC from using its tea and coffee and that they must know supply thier own.

Take the offer on the table before WW adds this to the list

Oh, and you asked about Trotsky:

Please tell me you are not spouting revolution trying to derail the process?

The reapply for your own jobs under new terms and conditions has already been tried and tested by BA when it set up Cityflyer, oh and it worked! just ask any BA cityflyer crew. As for unions fighting it they all looked the other way and didnt want to get involved in BAs experiment.

:hmm: Is that intended to be serious - because the standard of living on a LHR cabin crew wage is sooooo terrible??? - Also I am sorry but I believe the Pilot's remuneration is in line with the costs involved with their training, and the level of training and scrutiny that they have to go through to carry out their jobs. Cabin Crew are great at what they do but the training is free and in no way as rigourous, also the skills required are almost entirely different - hence a different remuneration package.

Substitute "management" for Union and "propaganda" for communist manifesto and we could possibly say the same to you.

I heard the same quote's and unoriginal thought time and time again from Socialist Worker Students whilst I was at Uni.

That can not be serious - because it is so ridiculous.

Even nurses who work 10 times as hard as doctors don't whine about the fact that their pay is so poor compared to Doctor's. EYXW is right. You can not compare Pilot's wages and FAs wages.

I'll reiterate what I said on another thread. And that is BA CC have relatively the best T&Cs in the land, yet BA are far from being the best Airline.

Don't get me wrong, any reduction in pay is a terrible thing to have to deal with because your current mortgage and other expenditure is based on what you are getting now, so I definately understand the concern.

The wider picture though is that BA is far behind the middle-eastern and SE Asian carriers (not my opinion, read the rankings). BA should have done a "Beardy" years ago and reduced T&Cs to protect the company but becasue the hassle was too much during the boom years, it never happened. The truth now is that it needs to happen. Because BA can not compete with the Middle Eastern and SE asian carriers at present. This reduction in T&Cs needs to happen becasue I would hate to see another British Institution fall upon the scrap heap.

Socialist worker. That was my line of thinking of "Mincer"

Mincer you are so '70s.

The world has moved on. Work conditions and renumerations change.

I would agree that no one shoud have renumeration reduction, but there are ways of working smarter.

Personally I think Mincer is a wind up :yuk:.

It is down to the Cabin Crew Fraternity to tell BASSA to work for THEIR benefit and not the unions'. As mentioned earlier in the thread - get the best possible outcome you can, there will be pain.

The talk of bringing the company down is tosh! The smart Cabin Crew will see through this.

Don't let the Union run you, YOU run the Union.

My 2 cents worth.

Bringing down the company is pure tosh. Cabin crew have bills to pay, mortgages to pay and family responsibilities to discharge. A few crew may not give a monkeys because they are independently wealthy, but I'm sure that's very few.

So would you rather be in employment working smarter or on the dole, the proud and powerful BASSA destroyed by having no crew to represent. It would be the union committing suicide to bring the company down; BASSA is the British Airways SSA for it to exist so must BA.

But to continue the logic, when BA is no more, what then? Re-employment by a phoenix like company on the same terms and conditions - only in never-never land where the children do not grow up. It is likely that even if the accountants do sell what remains of the assets to another company, say for arguments sake Virgin, what T&C's will they offer - oh yes, the one's they have already. That would be the best scenario, the other alternatives are far worse.

BA CC we are constantly told - and it is true - are generally well educated, thoughtful people. I am confident they will not follow people happy to lead the to the dole queue, as I said before, they have mortgages to pay. They have very little stomach for a strike, and a sick out will not work under this management.

So the Strike will leak, there will be plenty of cc that do not agree or cannot afford to agree with the vocal minority. In todays economic climate a job is a job, and it is this months mortgage and bills that will need to be paid.

The votes from Kempton Park mean very little and are suspiciously homogenous - no differences of opinion on 3 issues amongst 1500 people. Stalin would be proud, WW is not stupid he will look at those ballot results and smile.

Imagine if cc hijacked some of the airline forums in here- there would be hell to pay from those up front who have such an attitude.

I wish that we were getting 100 Gs and wouldn't have to worry about it.

Please don't mention the miners strike unless you really know what happened!!!!! You open yourself to looking foolish.

Anyway, guess we all just lay down and end up getting paid £5 an hour- strange who comes out of the woodwork and starts defending neo-liberal.
bosses - remember- it's better to fight them than to give in to them.

Please can we have a discussion amongst CC and not flight deck and managers, who's agenda is completely different- mind you, they are always right, have you noticed that?

Alitalia anyone?

The Flight CREW's agenda (in this instance) is the preservation of the airline and therefore their jobs, as is, I should imagine, most manager's and other employees. The SMT don't have to worry about such things I guess but they are employed to make a profit - not doing so without trying to change this will see them out of a job fairly soon, and whatever you might wish to believe we will always need senior managers to function and they will ALL be tasked with turning a profit. BA is not a Nationalised company any longer and pretending like it is will get you nowhere. Not to mention, I doubt the tax payers would have the stomach to fund inefficient practices in the current climate.

If your agenda, Mincer, is anything different then I suggest you may be in the minority.

As for the Miners strike - everyone has a different opinion of what happened and who was to blame so lets not start on that one!

It's 2009 not 1979 things have changed greatly the recession is far worse this time around and its (the economies) recovery will see oil prices soar once again - Airlines need to make permanent changes to survive.

Don't give up pay - work smarter, work harder but at least try to negotiate.

Mincer, you are a wind up really aren't you? or are you really serious??????

Heavens. What an acerbic bunch we have become. The last three pages require deletion.

From the start I have pointed out that Walsh's assault is not about saving an ailing airline, it is about a smash & grab on cabin crew T&Cs. I have repeatedly called upon my leadership to explain how the figure of £82million was reached. Some transparency. My union did as they were asked, and produced their own proposals which produced a greater saving than the company required. But £82million was a smokescreen, it may as well have been .82p.

The real intent was the creation of a new fleet, staffed by temporary workers, and starvation of the existing fleet's work - thus earnings.

And its commences in November.

The previous three weeks of intense negotiation have been for nothing. I read here that BASSA will not budge, have a say no attitude. They may have, but so has BA under the regime of Walsh. The argument may be that BASSA said no,no,no but clearly so have BA. I had an interesting chat with a senior manager at BA. Travelling east in first class, and perhaps one too many champers, (deliberately applied!), he let slip that several meetings with the union had been cancelled. Walsh had met with Francis and questioned why he was negotiating, there was nothing to negotiate. Whether the Walsh/Francis meeting occurred is hearsay, however it was confirmed that meetings with BASSA were cancelled, whilst at the same time Francis was telling crew that IfCE was involved in intense negotiations.

So, where from here. It seems that Walsh is revelling in his 'reasonable man gets nowhere' mantra and the unions remain defiant. Neither side will make the first move to compromise. Colleagues I speak with seem happy to take a temporary hit to see BA through the current economic downturn, but not a permanent change to their contracts. They can see the opportunistic nature of Walsh & Co. They also understand that the customer will not benefit. Savings made in the long term will not be passed onto our customers, you will not see a reduction in your ticket price. Nor, will you see any improvement in service. The rut which BA have dug is of no benefit to anyone, not passengers, not other employees, certainly not the cabin crew and not management. Walsh took a gamble and took a sledge hammer, at the worst possible time, to wield at his staff. A better CEO would have been diplomatically and tactfully chipping away, as indeed previous CEOs have done.

So who benefits from this stand-off and its culmination. Perhaps the leadership team and their bonus's, perhaps the shareholders. I would say if the gamble goes wrong, (which is looking highly likely), they too can join the list of those who will not benefit.

Change is constant, I think we all agree, not instantaneous. Major and instant changes lead to problems. This is a major change for me. My loyalty can only lie with my colleagues and unions. A £6000 reduction in my salary equates to 25%. Too much for me to maintain my lifestyle. (Which, incidentially, is not excessive. Just average.) A heart to heart conversation with my wife, and the agreement is that under the new terms I simply could not afford to work for BA. So should i just capitulate, as some, (any I make no apologies), smug commentators on here have suggested and maintain a job, after all jobs are not easy to come by at the moment. The problem of my finances will not change so you will understand why I need to fight to maintain what I have. Fact: You would.

I'm a Conservative, and have been since my days as a crad carrying young conservative. I believe in the doctrine of capitalism, but I also believe that capitalism must be played out carefully and discretely. Make it too blatent and Marx becomes a hero. It's not good to reveal the loss of 300 jobs on the same day that it is revealled the 'fatcat' senior managers are back on a £1000 a day. Winds people up. Alun Howells six days of work equals the repossession of my home.

And to finish. The views expressed on this forum are a minority, and beyond a considered change. I read the same people spouting the same views without consideration of what else is written. This is not a conversation, not a debate. There is a crisis brewing and my time is better spent dealing with the problems the crisis will bring. I cannot influence your views, but neither do I need to. So this will be my last post. My time here does not matter. I'll continue reading for a short while but ultimately I intent to cancel my membership of PPrune.

Happy flying.

Where I am working at the moment, there is one individual who believes the airline owes him a living. He is very left wing,(a union rep) and a lazy bastard to boot.

But because of the local terms and conditions, he plays the game, and cannot be sacked. (OK so that might be a management problem) But the fact is, with your rantings, Mincer, (I cannot describe them as anything else) I perceive you to fit into his mould.

Am I on the right lines? What or who do you represent Mincer, it might give fellow reader/contributors an idea of why you are coming from where you are!

And by the way, who is hi-jacking this Cabin Crew forum?

mincer,

I am cc and I am here having a discussion. All industries at present are doing their best to keep alive their jobs for the future. Car industries going down to a 3 day week for example.

You really need to look at the bigger picture. For BA to survive, they need to compete in the market and the only way they can do that is by looking at what other carriers' T&Cs are to reduce costs. If I moan, then the only words of sympathy I get are "Go across the road to BA, no hard feelings".

The truth is that T&Cs cuts for even the big legacy carriers are occuring not just for CC but also for the flight deck. Take easyJet for example. They have always been that slightly better in terms of service than Ryanair, their nearest competitor. But since MOL had reduced the airline to nothing more than a bus service (which people don't seem to mind when you see how "successful" they are) EJ have had to do the same thing - starting off with the limit on how much water pilots can drink and getting CC to bring their own tea-bags!

I can't speak for all CC but you don't do this for the money. I only fly Long Haul, haven't had a relationship that has lasted more than 3 weeks in the last 4 years and get less money than my friends in an office job working as 7 quid an hour secretaries. But I wouldn't change it because I enjoy what I'm doing.

Don't tell the bearded guy this but I have worked out that I can forfeit about 75p per hour before I would have to call it a day because I simply could not afford to live! Up to that point, I would not mind a reduction as I would have my job protected and hopefully would have safeguarded a lot of my colleagues.

This is, I believe, where BASSA and most other people part ways on their beliefs.

£2.5million a day - that means that BA may as well be burning £30 every second - If BASSA believe this is sustainable, then they are sorely misguided. If you believe that the 10% profit made last year was something that would have happened this year if their had been no recession then you are misguided BA was predicting a low to no profit well before recession became the talk of the day.

BA isn't yet an ailing Airline but as I have said before - this attitude of it not being something that could happen to us is dangerous and the main reason that I am disappointed in a Union that would have once had my support.

I always love that. Why don't other people leave us to have our debate. On the PROFESSIONAL PILOTS rumour network. Which, if the debate only affected you and your peers would be perfectly reasonable.

Unfortunately you are trying to turn a workforce against their employers for the ends of propping up terms and conditions for which even your own peer group had deemed extravagant. I feel you have missed the point here.

Many of the discussions held on this thread have revolved around the fact that a minority, and it is a minority, of militant CC are beating a big drum, attempting to rally the troops for a call to IA. This damages the forward bookings of the company I also work for and thus damages its potential future. So, to summarize I too have a vested interest in the outcome of these 'talks' and militant workers constantly throwing out the 'neo liberal' waffle aren't helping to get a viable alternate on the table.

If you wish to turn your energies to solving the situation rather than to aggravating it then you might just make some headway. The time now is to engage with the company and, like any 'bartering' situation see what is ludicrous, what can be taken and achieved and what needs further discussion. Be very wary of throwing the lot out because BASSAs' stance of 'no one will want to work under those conditions' appears to be somewhat flawed, even your own industry branch is saying so.

(P.s. I stood at the 'coalface' of the miners strike with my Uncle, a Nottinghamshire pit worker and have experienced what transpired for myself. Not pleasant but, sadly, inevitable.)

I really do wish the process well. I think the vast majority of LHR CC can see it for what it is, which is a contractual re-adjustment in financial hard times. Once the recession is past, as long as we are still standing then we can start from scratch and negotiate improvements. A difficult process however one that the Flight Crew have already accepted will be required. Add to that that we are also going through performance related scrutiny and per capita have almost double to loose, we are still, all in this together.

Wise up. It's either new contract or the dole and you won't see WW in the queue.

Tightslot

You've deleted most of mincers posts that were the 'glue' holding the thread together at this point.

Oh well no great loss.

Please feel free to delete this.

Thx

This is a very typical behaviour for BASSA. Regardless what the company proposes (unless it has a positive impact on its members), BASSA says no. One should ask themselves who is running the airline after all. Is it BASSA?

Wobble, i cannot believe how misguided you are in your assumption that anything given away now, due to the harsh economic trading conditions,can then be negotiated back from BA management when profitability returns.Anyone who knows anything about industrial relations within BA,knows full well,that benefits and conditions,surrendered,are never,ever,re-instated and that's a fact.I believe the union are prepared to make "temporary" concessions to alleviate the financial pressure on the airline,that we all appreciate.On the understanding that when trading conditions improve,these temporary measures will be recinded.The company will not agree to that proposal,as they are determined to undermine the current benefits enjoyed by cabin crew once and for all.An opportunistic attack,i have heard it described as,on employees terms and conditions.BA cabin crew are not out to destroy the company,nor are they oblivious to the economic conditions in which the company operates.Sensible compromise is the way to get through the current financial situation,not an aggressive attack on employees long term livelihood.That's my take on the situation,i of course expect to be corrected.Good luck to all involved,i hope common sense prevails from both management and union.

Bermudatriangle,

I know exactly how difficult, in fact nigh on impossible, the task of negotiation will be after the event. However we all need to face the reality that this is an extremely difficult time ahead and difficult negotiating positions may be all we have left after the downturn has run its inevitable course.

Everyone is patently aware that BA runs a one way T's & C's ratchet. A bit like the governments petrol tax system that only ever goes up. I am certainly not naive enough to think that anything post 2009 will be remotely easy nor that the management will look back and say 'hey guys, you really bailed us out back there, here's a bonus'.

However, when you are out of the starting blocks with T's & C's that are far, far, far above other departments, carrying block payments, meal payments, lateness credit, CAT turnarounds (the CAT doesn't even exist anymore but the payments do!) etc. how can you NOT expect to be in the firing line for rationalisation?

As you have alluded to, sensible, adult discussion over how the targets can be achieved with the minimum hit to the employees is the way ahead. What is sad is that a small minority of CC, possibly drip fed by BASSA throw the 'bring the company down' banner and that worries everyone else. The vast majority of CC have a well balanced and considered opinion of the situation and are hoping that a mutually conducive outcome can be achieved. I hope it goes well as I like the company and I like the crews I fly with.

p.s. Paragraphs help the reader immensely!

I have no idea how to copy links into a post but I did read this line and smile.

just because the cabin crew want to maintain a standard of living which is well below that of pilots by the way, they have to be insulted and told that the cuts are necessary.

Well first of all its all about supply and demand the Pilots will have better pay etc as it is a skilled job, it takes years to qualify as a Pilot and I understand it is very expensive. So really it is silly to compare such a skilled job with another role that is to be frank an unskilled role. I am sure many crew will be insulted at this but think about it, how long does it take to train a crew member? 6-8 weeks I am guessing.

In reading this Post I have real concerns for BA as an organization and I suspect that many people here are posting in the guise of crew from other airlines, praying BA go on strike and then bankrupt, but trying hard to stir up emotions.

The bottom lines is that at the moment it is survival of the fittest for many organizations and many will only survive if others fail. In my organization there has been many people made redundant as we desperately try to cut costs and remain as competitive as we can. If we sat back and did nothing we would be out of business in a few months!

And as for this talk of this recession ending soon, I think you need to realign your expectations. The world government's have borrowed lots of money and we will all have to pay that back, and when people get back on their feet they will probably try and clear up arrears on credit cards and mortgages, not be flying around the world in Club World. Many businesses will be the same, they are losing Millions of Euros and they will keep very tight budgets for long after the recession has ended.

I fear for BA, your unions sound out of touch to me and I think you are all playing a dangerous game!

Seems to me there a number of distinct groups here. Those who are current BA CC who actually perform the role everyone else has an opinion about, BA flight crew who have themselves been through rationalisation but who enjoy salaries allowing them to buy big houses, second families, share porfolios based on advice received at the golf club etc with spare cash not committed to the immediate needs of the family, others in peripheral managerial airline roles with an "expert" opinion based on their life view/prejudices enabling them to ally themselves to their perceived friend Willie and then of course the all important "also rans" staffed by wannabe airline execs ( currently in Ops etc), BA lgw crew and ex lhr temps busting for another go. The BA CC deal with all the trials of managing a life in the South East of England with perpetual time zone changes, severe social disruption and the joys of slf without the benefit of a remuneration package they can hang onto although it was what they were promised when they joined. In addition they are lectured on how good they have it and how important they give it up for the sake of the company by groups earning five times as much! Shame on you. I keep reading my ATPL syllabus and I cannot find any mention of airline management in the course. Where did you guys go to learn it? Have I missed something?

Pinkaroo, if you can't contribute to the debate why post your prejudices against pilots and others, it serves no useful purpose.

What I haven't seen is much in the way of suggestions as to how cc may minimise the pain to themselves, I have seen plenty of "well we are BA cabin crew so how dare anyone else have an opinion" which is pure militant BASSA-speak.

BA cabin crew don't have a monopoly on the job, there are plenty of posters on this forum who work as crew for other companies who know exactly how lucrative the job in BA can be for some.

BTW I am a BA pilot with a small 3-bedroom house, no 'second family' (whatever that is), no shares and I don't play golf, so please don't stereotype us, TVM.

Overstress, Consider for a moment the following. You take home £1800 and need every penny of it to pay a mortgage, a car loan, rising fuel and food costs. You have a job you thought meant you knew would pay you what you agreed and then along comes a little Irishman who decides to use a financial climate of fear to extract your future financial security from you in order to raise the share price and fulfill the bonus criteria. You become concerned and then aware that around you are the "chattering classes" all looking down their nose at you for being in possession of T & C's they don't have because he took them off them. Now do you see where I am coming from?. If you don't have the shares, golf clubs, big house and second family, don't worry you will. You must be new. Cheer up. It will happen!

It may be worth adding that BA cc have enjoyed better T&C's than very other cc in job in the country, so BA have profited from cherry picking the best cc from all those airlines.

Now those cabin crew that gave up their seniority, increments etc. to start all over again and work for the UK's premier airline without taking a pay cut that would prevent them from doing so (mortgages, loans etc..) are now facing a reduction in earnings that may well find them in a financial position that is less than they gave up. Yet BA can profit from having the best crew in the country at the same rate as every one else.

Just wait a moment before you slaughter me for suggesting that all BA crew are better than everyone else, they aint! The point is this; because they have the best T&C's they can attract everyone and therefore select the best. And if you think about it, where have most of all your best crew gone from your airline?......... If they can, they do!

It may be fair to suggest that anyone else that joins BA should be paid the industry rate because no-one with any seniority in any other airline will bother applying, so there is nothing to lose, only BA won't get a chance to employ tried and tested damn good crew.

Certainly times are changing and sure, BA management are going to milk it as much as possible but you do need to negotiate and offer a professional and constructive compromise that will see you through these tough times whilst still offering you a career (not just a job) when times get better.

6

The Role Of Ba Cabin Crew
 

At the heart of this issue,is the role of BA cabin crew.
To those who do not do the job,let me give you an insight. Longhaul crew report for duty, on a 747, 15, sometimes 16 crew,depending on the route. At the briefing they are introduced to each other, more often than not,total strangers. Briefing on the flight, booked loads, special passengers, flight time, safety and security questions, aviation medicine, emergency senarios, all run through with thoroughness.
Proceed to the aircraft,complete safety and security checks and prepare for passenger boarding.

The team then provide the inflight product to the passengers, usually in 4 different class of cabin, sometimes 3 classes, again dependent on aircraft type and route. Customers cover the total social spectrum, their needs and expectations are just as diverse, all expect to have their needs met and hopefully surpassed. The inflight surveys taken on each flight constantly put the cabin crew at the top of the customer experience, making up for shortfalls elsewhere in the overall travel experience.

On a 12 hour flight anything can happen,from dealing with intoxicated passengers,to sadly, a death on board, all of which are dealt with professionally by the crew, as they are trained to do so. The cabin crew often recover situations where customers are dissatisfied. As the norm, they strive to offer exceptional customer service and do everything possible to satisfy customer demands. Service matters more than ever as companies strive to maintain their customer base and cabin crew play a vital role in maintaining loyalty from regular customers.

To dismiss their role as a financial burden that needs to be adjusted to the market rate, makes the terrible mistake of failing to realise the contribution they make to the success of the company,day in and day out. The diversity of the crew, their multitude of skills and in most cases, real passion for the role and looking after their customers cannot be underestimated.
The workforce is unique and worth far more than the market rate which is the only target in managements eyes. In a customer service industry,the employees make or break the company. In BA's case, the crew are vital to its success. I hope that the management realise the contribution cabin crew make and stop seeing them as just another cost to be slashed.

pinkaroo you missed my point with diving straight in talking about take-home pay. I will repeat my contribution, namely, where are the suggestions from crew which could help make the savings required with a minimal impact on pay?

And no, not new to BA, (10 years+) I just have a very modest lifestyle which will not change despite your confident predictions. And I will never take up golf :rolleyes:

bermudatriangle
 

That is the same for any member of cabin crew at any airline. To read your post and suggest that their dedication is any different to yours is crass at the very least. I do not change my assessment of the situation at BA for many of the crew employed there, as I have stated in my previous post.

An attitude of superior indifference to all other cabin crew that do exactly what you have said BA crew do and thus deserve your T&C's is wrong. You need to re-evaluate your argument.

6

And I bermuda triangle, salute you for the job you do! Perhaps others should pause and consider what you just told them. Good luck to you all! The Europeanisation of this beautiful land sickens me. A determined policy to downgrade standards to the lowest common denominator have meant quality has been replaced by quantity. Come on FC. Step out from behind your Daily Telegraghs and take a stand. Don't be part of the problem. I fly BA because you chaps keep me safe,and because you get me there on time. I am as proud of the drivers up the front as I am of the CC down the back.

Market Rate.

This is what your management team are looking at. Market rate is not just about pay though. A car is just not a car. If a BA crew members product on offer, is better than who they are being compared against, then the market rate for a cabin crew member (average) across the UK, is not a valid measure.

If you can justify your wage against your competitors in the UK, then WW is being unreasonable. The law does not look at your mortgage and standard of living though. However, if a business just decided to reduce your wage, they would also be acting unreasonably, especially if there were other methods whereby costs could be controlled.

Should a BA B747 captain be on any more than a Virgin B747 captain? Come to think of it, should a BA captain be on more than an Easy captain? I would hope not. I do not know the figures, so I cannot comment with any facts to back me up. I would imagine that an Easy captain has a worse scheduling agreement, just because they are a newer company and have not had the time to establish a benefits package in line with a legacy carrier.

However, the crew are the face of the product. They have an active involvement in achieving repeat business. All pilots takeoff and land, no matter who pays their wage.

Pinkaroo,

Can you please, please please stop trying to complain about disparity between CC and FC pay, terms and conditions. There have been many hotly debated threads on the matter and they are not, in any way shape or form comparable.

I don't want to side track the thread so I will keep it as brief as possible. There are a very small minority who, whenever T's & C's are discussed believe there should be parity between FC and CC. I am happy to say that most of the intelligent, often degree holding CC, see it for exactly what it is, which is remuneration for the years of studying and flying for the licence and the constant checks required to keep them current. Coupled with the responsibility, placed upon the Captain by the company, passengers and insurers with a $250 million aircraft, crew and passengers.

Pinkaroo, if you are indeed doing or have done your ATPL studies as you seem to intimate then you will realise that, as with most courses, the detail of the course is for the attainment of the licence. Once achieved the real learning begins with most pilots hopping RHS-LHS from turbo prop to regional jet and then finally to international carrier. There are exceptions which are the cadets or Self Sponsored Pilots who have to pass a rigorous selection process even before touching an aircraft. As to qualifications, I do indeed have an MBA, which comes in handy whilst watching the junior managers trying to keep all the blocks from falling. I am not, however, neither will I ever become airline management. I have left that far behind.

It is market forces at play here. The CC in BA have long enjoyed above market rates compared with their peers operating similar aircraft on similar routes with similar cabin configurations. Some might say they should have been aware of that and the events unfolding around them and possibly put something aside. That is not for me to say. What I will say is that this was bound to come. Anything above the parapet in this economic storm is going to get weathered away and the best thing that the unions can do now is try and work with the company to build the parapet a bit higher whilst accepting that there will be some loss.