Here at Planet Cranebank I was told yesterday that indeed there are nearly 1000 suitable candidates in the hold pool should any unpleasant things come to pass. Additionally there were 10 extra SEP trainers taken on last September with presently little extra work to meet that requirement. Added to this as well it was discussed last year that CST training staff could take on large segments of the NECC classroom days. The senior management of CST have stated that there is a need for 12 more training staff with presently not enough work for the existing staff.

Threat it may be or merely a logistics exercise as so many times in the past plans have been put forward and come to nothing. Past experiences have seen many fall at the first hurdle and one only needs to think of the great day a year or so ago when WW hailed the dawn of a new day that went t--s up about an hour later.

£8.34 an hour isn't exactly a long term attractant to the best and the brightest though. Having had a quick look through a couple of recruitment sites night cleaners and data entry clerks fall in to this sort of salary bracket.

With some sadness I have recently hung up my wings - fed up with being treated as some sort of problematic, overpaid cog in the corporate machine. I was lucky enough (and I know just how lucky in the present climate ) to go back to working as a Director's PA in London. I work hard, make use of my degree and languages and am paid the going rate which is something just above £26,000 a year.

In simple terms once the economy stabilises crew like me will leave. If you have brains, and a decent CV why work your heart out for under £9.00 an hour? For the first time in years I actually feel valued and able to progress on my own merits. I will always miss flying, but the mis-management and constant chipping away of cc terms and conditions made this decision inevitable.

I don't know why anyone who doesn't work as BA crew have such a huge interest in seeing our 'lucrative contracts' slashed. I go back to my origianal question. How would you like it if it were your contract in question. Forget the 32 points. Its not about that. It's about New Fleet. Its exactly what they did at LGW. They basically want rid of us. Why shouldn't we fight tooth and nail for our jobs and accept the £6000 per year pay cut. And also, lets face it, it's almost just how QF did it as well. Does it come as a shock that we say no?

In response to Crunchy, the Single Fleet at LGW wasn't exactly implemented overnight, ALL BA Crew knew it was happening but because it didn't affect the "Golden Runways" and you were unaffected it was allowed to happen. Another example of this has been the 11 month temp crew, again BASSA did little to allow this trojan horse onto the field.

I put it to all BA Crew, had BASSA gone to BA in the previous few years and negotiate a more sensible set of T&Cs then you may not now be left standing on top of a very big cliff.

In response to the "you can't take £500/month off me" posters, how about seeing it as having been paid that much over the odds (see CAA Crew Costs if you dn't believe me) for the past 25 years. I don't want to see anyone out of pocket, but I know so many crew that are intelligent, qualified people who must have known that this situation couldn't go on forever.

edited to correct my typos...F33

Flaps - Fair comment. We do share some opinions. I was at LGW when they shut it down and introduced the single fleet. I made my feelings quite clear then, that this 'not my aisle' attitude would bite us up the backside - not if, but when they tried it at LHR. I agree that BASSA should have done more then as well, but at the end of the day, when the deal was done, we had no choice. It was 'take lhr or leave it'. I personally went up there kicking and screaming. Now, it's happening again. Slowly but surely, the T&C's are eroding and we will not have it anymore. Enough is enough!! Yes, we're all standing on that edge of that cliff and it's not fun. I will support BASSA. I need to support BASSA. I don't want to go on the 'new fleet' thanks. :{

[quote][/Let us do some basic math on those figures 10,000/1200 = £8.34ph - now please remind us all of the minimum wage in the UK QUOTE]

We do live in a high cost living area. Our mortgage's is often out of kilter with our earnings. This is before ususal suspects such as water, electricity etc.. blah blah. The rest of our income is variable and is triggered by timmings, unfortunately not all crew enjoy 900 hours. My destinations are a lottery ticket, which come with different payment values. What may seem a busy time in the air may not have much value in the bank. I do enjoy my work, infact I do not see it as work. But I do need to feed and support my young family. So yes in my eyes this is minimum wage..

Hi Blue Riband

To be honest, if a reasonable hourly rate, with an increase to my current basic was offered. There is no reason why I or others would not explore this option.

Nevertheless, back to reality I am on a allowance based system with my Company looking to take away allowances trigger payments. I cannot afford this. My move is defenisve , but I am bringing the shutters down to protect my income.:hmm:

No, not hearing anything except unfounded rumour and heresay. Time to look for another job methinks.

I cant see us winning this one.

Sadly I suspect your right.

Sadly I feel that the company has the jump on BASSA on this one. If a strike ballot is called then the company can simply give 90 days notice to terminate all contracts. The new fleet can be up and running almost overnight with the option for any current crew to move over to the new fleet to 'secure' their jobs. Some will hold out and end up with no employment. Interestingly having spoken to numerous crew over the past couple of weeks a higher than expected number have expressed interest in the 'new' fleet especially if it allows greater control over lifestyle (bidding). During the 90 days most long haul departures will still operate with crew from Gatwick (were they are already mixed fleet), crew out of the hold pool and of course crew who have choosen to move to this fleet. Militant responses and strike ballots are just playing into company hands at this stage. Is this what I want to see happen... NO, I find most CC extremely professional and good at their jobs, and the biggest fear is of course where little Willie turns his attention next. BALPA has already been out played by Willie (open skies) and I suspect every move is planned.

Interesting post AH. Reading this and the Virgin thread make worrying reading.

It looks to me that we have to make change or contracts could be terminated with 90 days notice.

You mention a strike ballot...........if they were to introduce a new fleet, as looks incredibly likely, what legal grounds would be there to call a strike over?

Hey Crunchy and Twrecks

What would your sollution to the current crisis be? Do you realistically think we can go for a strike and it will all blow over?

I think if we did that we would be served 90 days notice of termination of contracts, and the goose which is laying the golden eggs will be well and truly killed.

If the unions have been given access to the company books, surely we should be negotiating a solution which keeps everyone in a job. Virgin are already making 154 crew redundant. Do we want some of our colleagues to face the same fate, or do you think it doesnt matter because they are only junior people?

I agree, we have to negotiate, and quickly.

The days of just saying NO and letting Juniors, or closing the Bangkok base is behind us surely?

You know what? I just don't know what the solution is. No I don't think for one minute that we'll strike and it'll all blow over. In previous years there has always been an answer but in my heart of hearts, I agree that we are on a very sticky wicket this time and its scares me. But if they are going to do us over, then it won't be without a battle. Not at LHR. There are too many crew that will reject this 'new fleet'. BASSA have admitted they cant stop it but I think BASSA will have to eventually do the best possible deal on the 'new fleet' because the deal they're offering on the table now is very bad. No-one can deny that. We should have stopped them from doing it to LGW but we didn't. We allowed it to happen. Partly ourselves to blame. Oh if only I had a pound for every time I said this would happen to crew back then. BA have a cunning plan. They've been planning this for years. They're ready. Crew in poole. Hundreds of temps that are current and waiting for full time contracts, full time trainers at Cranebank etc etc. I guess I just think, why go down without a fight!! Might seem a stupid attitude, but my job is worth fighting for. I love my job. The BA crew are brilliant - is it so wrong to feel that way?

Crunchy,

You say;

"I guess I just think, why go down without a fight!! Might seem a stupid attitude, but my job is worth fighting for. I love my job. The BA crew are brilliant - is it so wrong to feel that way?"

Guess the thing is though that our actions will reflect on all of BA, not just CC. A fight out in public, reflected in the press, or worse still the threat of Industrial Action, will loose BA passengers they cannot afford to loose.

The jobs losses at Virgin, and the 3000 at Air France-KLM this week show very clearly the impact of the recession on all airlines.

Think BA employs around 40,000 people directly with 1000s more employed indirectly in allied services. Any action you take will have an effect on all those people as well.

Yes of course this thread is about CC Ts & Cs, and yes of course you want the best for you, but remember everyone else that could also be affected.

TP - Valid comments. I'm very proud (well was) to work for BA as are most of my colleagues. I haven't met a crew member yet that hasn't been willing to make sacrifices. If we're going to be put on new, permanent, contract with reduced T&C's which will result in a substantial pay cut forever, then so should the rest of the company employees (pro-rata). Everyone should be treated the same way. Isn't that fair? Why should one community foot the entire bill? I'll bet if they got another £350m fine they'd find the money. Oh yes - they'd get it off us!!

Hey Crunchy

I didn't think anyone was going to be put onto a new contract unless they chose to go to the new fleet.

If you choose to stay on the fleet you are on, you are stuck with your current way of doing things.........on a route network that is very likely to rapidly become less well remunerated. For example, LH might perhaps lose SIN, HKG, BKK, LAX and SFO, and SH might perhaps miss out on a lucrative dinner payment in GVA, ZCH or OSL.

At least thats the way I understand it, but you have to read between the lines from each side at the moment.

We can't 'fight' for anything if there isn't anything that we can't legally strike over. They have already published the 32 point list of things that I think we really wish that the media didn't know about.

Gaz

Hmm Gaz

The media would have a field day with the "I'm only on minimum wage" line. Yes, if we are sick for a fair while, then our pay is low, but when the times are good, in my experience, they are very good!! If they weren't I bet we wouldn't bring back so may 'bargains' from Macy's, and Crate and Barrel etc.

The dumbest thing we have done recently was during the snow.......that was just too public an example of what our agreements required!!! IMHO

Crunchy

This has been happening within the company for many years now. CC have been largely insulated from thanks to BASSA - unfortunately it's your time in the firing line.

I'm not saying it's right or fair but the rest of the company have been suffering for years - for example my old department had 40 engineers working rotating shift patterns 24hrs a day 365 days a year. They now have 25 engineers doing the same job that 40 guys did only five years ago.

Their contribution to the company's cost savings is 3 redundancies - they have NO union to protect them either reapply for your old job or leave are the only options available - this is fairly typical throughout the airline.

Be careful what you wish for!

Crunchy ; The ground staff are getting our backsides kicked and our T and C's have, are and will change. Like yourselves they are not to our advantage and in many cases will lead to pay cuts. The proposed ground staff contracts all feature difficult performance trargets which in many areas are extremely difficult to achieve. I wish us all well.

Yes and so do I. BASSA have fought our corner in many cases. I wish everyone in BA well. All I'm saying, is that as individuals in our own departments, its natural to defend your own position. I do think though, that this is one battle we will find very hard to win. :ugh:

Hey Crunchy

I think now is the time to pressure the union to find out or to develop a strategy for change for the good of us all, not just those at the top.

Lets face it, could we easiy earn the same money outside BA? Hell no!! There are CAA figures I have seen that show us costing twice what it costs Virgin to employ its cabin crew. Its supposedly an average figure, but no wonder Willie is especially after us.

We need to negotiate our way out of this, or I fear it will be 90 days notice and new contracts for us all.

Simeng, that is terrible, i didnt realise we had been so protected these years!! And you guys must be so specialised and difficult to replace. I wonder what the legal minimum time to train one of us just to do doors, evacuations and PA's is? Any ideas anyone?

don't underestimate your value to the company.you do not just open doors and serve food and drinks.you take care of our customers for hours on end.

Yes, Bermudatriangle, but what you originally wrote, and what appears now is the same for cc anywhere.

We have been rewarded handsomely, but with the economy the way it is now, how can we expect to be paid the same?

If the revenue is not coming in like it used to, how can they continue to reward us like they used to?

The way I see it going - and this is not necessarily what I agree with or think is a great idea, but just what will happen, is that the majority of crew will vote to strike. I think we all know that dont we?

Nobody enjoys a strike. Its just an awful and nasty experience that usually leaves both sides licking their wounds. I fear, we are really going to be licking very big wounds this time as BA have us where they want us, but neither can they afford a strike. That type of action right now, is just not an option for them so they're not exactly in the best position in the current climate for a costly battle with crew.

It'll get called off at the 11th hour. The new fleet will go ahead (we know that's a forgone conclusion), and BASSA will have to negotiate for better t&c's. It's never going to be as good as the current contracts, but neither should it be as shocking as their proposal.

This business of serving 90s notice is absolutely spot on. Yes they could do it, but legistically, no they can't and anyone can figure that one out.

We all know every department in BA is being hit, but CC are being hit the hardest. We have a big union behind as. We are a very large community so we can be heard.

I have many friends in other departments within the airline, including ground staff - whom are treated abysmally, engineers, pilots and office staff - even CCM's!! I wish and hope your own unions can and will fight your corners too.

And, when I say these things like 'fight your corner' I don't mean to bring the airline down or anything stupid like that.

Do I want any of the above? No. Am I happy about it? No. Do the other 13000 odd crew at LHR? No. Would anyone like it no matter who they are or where they work? Of course not!! Are we going to fight tooth and nail - naturally! Will we win - probably not! Let just hope the outcome isn't too painful. :( It pains me to admit it, but, like others here who might share a similar opinion, that's what large companies do.

You're right. Legally they can't, however giving someone 90 days notice of termination of employment is different to giving someone 90 days notice of termination of contract (ie. forcing you onto the new fleet). Not sure you can strike for the former but you probably could for the latter.

Both are illegal (in the case of the former, assuming someone else is subsequently employed in the same role) but the maximum compensation claim for the former is significantly less than for the latter and it would take a lot of time through the courts for it to be sorted out (believe me, BA can drag their feet for years if they want to). Would BA gamble that not many people would have the time or money to fight in the courts?

Mods: Not trying to pick a fight but suggesting another potential outcome.

Hi imastweardsothere

I hope we do not end in Industrial Action. As many crew prefer seeking answers across the table. As price of a strike is more than the saving's we have been asked to achieve.

I also do not believe, you would loose your job, should industrial action take place.

BA cannot afford to shut down for any length of time. Any Industrial Action if sort, needs to be legally justified, and would be time limited. There is alot of scare mongering going on and around from all sides..

Bringing BA into the 21st Century ... is quite complex.

We have so many varying contracts that exist within CC community.. British Airways is also heavily Unionised. Unite and GMB and Bassa will most likely join forces in preventing British Airways from making a drastic cuts to staff incomes. British Airways does nevertheless need to cut it's costs. There are many ways a company can cut cost's and also many solutions. Nevertheless all areas of the business need to be proactive in this change. I do think our attitudes, do need to be more realistic with the current climate, as many people in and outside the UK are facing job cuts and redundancy, or looking for any type of work. This is a global recession.

I do think British Airways needs to improve its transparency and it's relationship with the staff who drive its business. The whole way Coloumbus came out, and the way Management handled the leaked information was poor and has caused so much mistrust and anger. No one has confidence in WW or the IFC Management Team. The truth always lies somewhere between BA Management and BASSA.


Those crew, who currently enjoy contracts prior to 1997, or have more than 25 years service. May be happy to seek alternative pastures if offered a reasonable incentive through serverance. I sure this would have savings for the company over a period of time. But I am not an accountant.

Yes, mixed flying is most likely a good way to increase crew productivity. Eurofleet would need to be part of this new structure for it to real make a difference. Thus, BA would be able to increase the flying hours of Short Haul Crews to 900 a year instead of current average of around 700. As with the demise of the 757, crews would be able to hold another license. This may also allow the company to reduce is crew heads, another form of cost savings. Mix flying could be good for crewlifestyles if promoted with an improved bidding system. Mix flying can also be brought in with out making huge changes to current terms and conditions. This is what is stopping most Eurofleet crew from entertaining the idea.


We must not forget we need to retain, good customer service and good crews, our premium passengers pay alot to travel with us, so we want to attract crews that are serious about onboard safety and the well being of our passengers. We also need to care about our crew. I know what I was like at 18, .... A more mature and experienced in-charge crew is better for both the Company and the passenger.

We also need to look at some areas where things have changed, and are prehaps outdated. For instance we do not need 4 crew on a 319 that only has 50 passengers onboard, we could do the service with 3.

Prehaps the CSD, needs to have more of defined role. i.e Working role in First on WW. A hourly paid job contract needs to be explored to see if crews would be still be able to attain a reasonable wage.

The current proposals are unreasonable, but there is always a middle path. The savings may come in from the administration of this new contract. As currently the administration of an allowance base system is expensive.

I do not want anyone to loose their jobs, and quite happy to endure a pay freeze or even reduce working days to allow, all crew to go home and place food on the table. If people need to go. I hope we seek to find these reductions from natural retirement and non replacement of those leaving or voluntary serverance.

Future crews should not come in on different contracts, they are not less worthy of a liveable wage than I am. I do know our Unions have given BA Millions in temporary saving's opportunities, to help BA during this current downturn. I think BA should accept this, with the proviso that Unions will seriously explore other ways of making cost savings for the future, this could be in exploring of the payments systems. The above is just my personal outlook. I too will relying on BASSA to look after my future.

twrecks that is absolutely spot on. Every word.

Twrecks and Crunchy

I think I can guess the era you are from.

Twecks says "BA cannot afford to shut down for any length of time"...........how long can you afford to go on strike for? You expect it to be called off at the eleventh hour...........what if it isnt?

You suggest those employed prior to 97 or with 25 or more years service could be offered severance.....that would be age discriminatory, and hence it would have to be offered to all.

Have a look at the CAA's website, and you can see why we as a worforce are burdened with an unsustainable cost base. We have inflated our salaries, and particularly our allowances system to the point that we cost more than twice as much as cc at Virgin.

Sadly that is unsustainable. We must change.

I am not on the old contract.

Nor me..

new contract here

So, you both will vote for a strike? What do you think you will gain? How long are you prepared to stay on strike for? Hoe much do you have budgeted for a strike?

Dear soimastewardsowhat, I think I've made my stance quite clear. I suggest you read twrecks post again. It is an excellent post and I agree with it entirely. In answer to your other questions pertaining to budgets etc, please go to the BASSA website.

The difficulty faced by BASSA is that the company are after permanent cost savings not short term savings to avoid a bun fight and then have the same old story in a few years.

Just the threat of industrial action costs the whole company money. The rumblings through the press already will be having a negative effect on the forward bookings over the summer. Possibly offset by the worry of travelling with a smaller airline that might go bust.

I think WW has finally had enough and decided that now is the correct climate to solve this prickly issue once and for all. After all, this has been dragging on for quite some time now.

I think the plea to 'accept short term measures now' will fall on very deaf ears. Don't forget that the company has the right to withdraw your contract with 'adequate' (read 90 days) notice.

Hi imastweardsothere,

I and Crunchy and many of the CC who voice concern's on this forum or debate issues do so, because we enjoy our jobs, but we are not doormats...as BermudaTraingle said......


In addition to this we...
Give up 365 days of the year, remain constanly on call via availables and 24 hour standby, have no guarantee of a christmas off, or leave in any summer period. Work in a pressurised cabin, at a voluntary cost to our long term health. Live out of a suitcase, spend our live's paying the odds for meals in different venues, spend nights alone in hotel rooms around the world. Having no or little control over our lifestyles. Work shifts , work through the night, fight off fatigue and jet lag. Be constantly on time, be flexiable, and not forgetting .. if we have an emergency, will save a load of people ahead of ourselves. :eek:

Yes, we do have a value, it's not just to feed the flight deck. ;)

Do not under estimate the Cabin Crew Community's worth. We are the face of British Airways, often the first contact a customer has with a real human being after his online check-in. WW and his Waterworld latte team, are playing a dangerous game at the expense of British Airways customers and shareholders. ( Me being one). It may be prudent that he start looking for his next post.

Do not assume Cabin Crew will strike, or are not open to negotiation through our Unions. Do not assume that I am on the old contract. However, be assured that CC Community will not sit by quietly, and let WW steamroll our T&C and industrial agreements, which have been introduced to protect the cabin crew from being over worked, in an enviroment where safetly should not be comprised.

Are you cabin crew or are you just fishing... ?

In answer to your last post. BA has in the past has given voluntary serverance to a defined group of people, either by date of joining, fleet, seniority or grade. It is not age discrimination, its an opportunity for those who qualify.

British Airways is a Premium airline offering an Upgraded experience...:).
I remain proud of my Airline, just not currently happy with the man at the top.

Well if it comes to strike action can you make sure that the crews know what they are striking for ,and what striking means . In this day and age it is easy to say lets strike, but the majority of the crews probably dont realise what this entails being of an age group that dont remember the late 70s and 80s . I expect the thought of strike action sounds fun to them now, but when they have to man the braziers expect more crew phoning in sick than manning the barricades just like last time! I am not saying that you shouldnt fight for your T&Cs,but if BASSA go for strike action then they are going to have to make sure that the crews are fully behind the action, and not just ticking a box on a ballot paper because thats what is expected of them and understand what that tick means , if not then strike action will be a waste of time and Willie will have won .

I think the vast majority of BA crew have been through a number of strikes and know only too well what it involves. You are also right though, there is a generation of BA crew who do not realise what a strike is like and I agree that BASSA should have everyone fully informed.

It seems as if the thread has been re-opened to non CC people:}

As I recall the last actual downing of tools was in 1997? for 3 days?

As such I think the 'vast' majority haven't a clue about what it involves. The vast majority think that a 'yes' vote means that they can throw a sickie and be immune. They should be under no illusion as to what it really means - the letters posted to home addresses detailing personal liabilities for company losses, the implications for (lack of) future employment; you name it. I suggest that my colleagues ask their union about these facts. Throwing a 'sickie' will not work this time, you need real representation, with proper negotiation from your 'elected' reps.