Who told you that, BASSA? I'm not aware of any department being told it can have a short term solution and subsequent review. The management want permanent savings from us all.

Oh come on. I'm a union member, not a union droid!

Managers will not recieve bonus payments this year. A temporary fix. This does not read Managers will not receive a bonus ever again.

Dare I mention, Flight Ops will not incur any increse in costs for the next two years leading to a saving of £Xmillion in year 1 and a saving of £Xmillion in year 2. What happens in year 3? I spoke recently with a decent chap who was and F/O and Balpa rep. He stated that this will cost Pilots money but Balpa were looking at a buy back in terms of compensation when the financial circle turned.

IfCE will have permanent changes with no buy back in terms of compensation at any stage.

Here is the crux of the matter.

Permanent changes.

That is why I feel I'm bankrolling ex-directors legal fees, replenishment of savings lost to fines for illegal activity, the turmoil in predicting fuel costs, the continuing of Walsh's pet project - Openskies, and the serious overcount (still) of administration/managers in IfCE.

And not offering temporary assistance to the company to survive an economic downturn.

Consider this. As you are a BA Pilot. Openskies pilots are cheaper to employ than yourself. Should Walsh decide he can screw more cash out of the company employees, and scope agreements aside, decide that the new single fleet will have cheaper cabin crew and also cheaper pilots. He therefore employs/transfers pilots to the new fleet on Openskies t&cs. And then watches the fleet grow and take on more and more routes. Would you consider this as helping the company through a difficult patch or a long term smash and grab on your hard fought t&cs?

What happens in year 3 is whatever you negotiate. You're coming at this like cabin crew are the only ones affected by these proposed cuts and everyone else gets a "thanks very much, here's your cash back" in year 3. That's not on the table for anyone. I don't disagree with you that the company are trying to take advantage of the circumstances, but I do disagree with the "Why are they only after cabin crew?" propaganda being spread by certain parties who've long been resistant to any change due to their zero-sum mentality.

PC767,

That was a long fought battle that, ultimately, BAPLA lost in many respects but won on the grounds of strengthening and getting BA to legitimise SCOPE. It is not really for discussion on this thread but the support from many other departments in BA to BALPA's efforts was underwhelming. Openskies will no longer be expanding, the aircraft tagged to go to it have been sold and the whole airline now operates under a French AOC, possibly giving it access to closed markets that mainline BA can't operate. Time will tell but I feel that it is a dead duck.

As to CC bringing the airline down? Yes it is a possibility if BASSA don't recognise that there is a problem. No one knows how long this downturn will last. I think ALL departments will agree that temporary measures until the situation improves are acceptable. What cannot be though is the ability to stick your heads in the sand and shout 'no no no no no' until the company caves in and lets you continue to run your little empire on it's current terms and conditions. Times change and BASSA needs to 'negotiate' (v. ne·go·ti·at·ed, ne·go·ti·at·ing, ne·go·ti·ates
v.intr.
To confer with another or others in order to come to terms or reach an agreement) rather than stonewall the attempts of the company to rationalise. Only then will an acceptable status quo be achieved. Remeber that many other departments of BA have already rationalised and are living under totally different terms than a few years back. Why should IfCE be any different? Why should you continue to enjoy outdated working practices and recompense above the industry standard when other departments are having to tighten their belts, take the short term pain on already rationalised contracts and then attempt to get it back later?

Is it BA management spin? Possibly some but definitely not all.

I'm coming at this like cabin crew are the only ones to face permanent cuts.

I'm genuinely worried. The cuts amount to roughly £6k per cabin crew. This is alot for anyone to lose, but amounts to a good 25% loss to me. That is not sustainable.

Wobble.

My comparrison to Openskies was theoretical. From a cabin crew point of view the new fleet may as well have Openskies upon their name badges. And it was to highlight the severity of the changes, which are not short term pain but long term slaughter.

From my position neither of the TUs have their heads in the sand. It strikes me that because BASSA haven't said 'yeah, wonderful ideas, when can we start?' to the companies wish list, that they are being accussed of being obstructive. And this word, negotiate, yup I thinks thats what they are doing now:ugh:.

PC767, the figure of £6000 banded around by BASSA is deliberately alarmist and provocative, reading between the lines not all the cash needs come form your own pocket.

You keep talking about Open Skies, yet display no understanding where it is placed in the scheme of things.

The start up costs have been spent, too late to worry about that now, but if you were to ask WW or Keith Williams, they are both very clear....... There is no more free money for Openskies, it must stand alone.:ok:

You mentioned the scope agreement, its just that, so how is WW going to employ pilots on cheaper terms and conditions in the UK?? Perhaps if BASSA weren't fiddling with bus timetables, CSD hotel upgrades and generally saying "NO ,now whats the question?," they may have tried to come up with a scope clause for cabin crew

If the unions box clever in the next few weeks, then you might see bonuses curtailed, you might see workers tie themselves in more to the future success of BA. For the time being though Pilots are just like you with no guaranty of any sort of payback.

We are told by Mr Francis (head of IfCE) that wages account for 99% of the IfCE budget. He will not break the costs down any further. £82,000,000 from c14,000 crew equals c£6,000 per head. Unless there is further transparency this has to be the assumption.

I know that Openskies isn't coming to LHR/LGW. The point was how would you react as a Pilot if a new fleet was established and the flight crew had to accept Openskies t&cs. Not very well. You may have a choice not to transfer but you will not have a say about which routes the fleet operates.

I don't doubt that BASSA are negotiating, it is, however, that alarmist information that 'leaks' from fortress BASSA that causes problems.

Surely it cannot be healthy for any union to scaremonger its members before negotiating a position that 'alleviates their fears'? An honest upfront appraisal of what's on the table followed by a members poll of what can reasonably be accepted and what cannot would form a far more stable negotiating base.

How many briefing details have BASSA passed on to their members or organised for member attendance? How are BASSA, apart from a slightly slanted website, passing vital information to their members whilst attempting to show both sides of the negotiation from unbiased perspectives?

Communication is key here. BALPA and BA have run meetings with, amongst others, WW, Keith Williams, Stephen Riley and Al Bridger for the last few weeks, will BASSA be doing the same?

I think that is where you will find the difference of opinion as to the severity of this little economic downturn comes from. Forewarned is forearmed and any decision taken on bad advice is, generally, a bad one.

Somebody a while back was critical of QRS in 5* hotels.

Quick point. Airport standby for long haul is extremely inefficient and restrictive. Time on standby has to be figured into duty hours which causes the restriction. For short haul this isn't a problem, but short haul do not operate a QRS. Hotel rest does not impact duty hours in the same way, thus it is more efficient for the company to be able to give 45mins to an individual to operate long haul. Personally I've been called for HKG and LAX recently which I could not do from an airport standby of 6 hours.

From a BALPA hotel rep during the problems with the LHR-EWR-JFK-MAN-JFK-EWR-LHR downroute accomodation debacle. BA will not pay more than £30 per night for a room because of the bulk required. The CRC is full now - where will all the extra standbys go?

PC767 looking at the "wish list" items 2,3,6,8,9,11,14,15,17,28,and 30 are solutions which means crew may work harder and be more flexible but won't hit your pocket. Well thats my understanding anyway.

There is no point or comparison to be made reference open skies. That useless BALPA who lost out to the company on Openskies negotiated that while BASSA fiddled with trivia.:ok:

Home standby? Flight Ops dont need QRS.

If invited them I'm certain BASSA would hold talks with the above. However, for now Bill Francis is the negotiator on behalf of BA.

The first three weeks of negotiations were covered by a radio silence agreement. However, with BA's approval BASSA have released updates on the 24/02, 26/02, 02/03, 06/03 and the 19/03. There is a branch meeting on the 06/04 to inform of the companies and BAs final positions. From there guidance will be recieved from crew on whether to accept or not.

PC767

You are quite right, crew on QRS are much more restricted in their use than those doing standby at home or from a hotel/B&B near the airport, which begs this question: Why have Long Haul Cabin Crew on QRS at all?

Why not theorectically compare to Openskies. The stance there was BA changing Pilots terms and conditions via the backdoor, a Trojan horse.

New fleet is cabin crew's Openskies, albeit using a battering ram to come directly through the front door.

What Walsh negotiated and accepted two years ago with BASSA, he has now had a change of heart. I've been reminded, several times, on here that agreements are not set in stone and are open to change. What is to stop Walsh, once the cabin of new fleet is cheap enough, deciding to reduce costs in the flight deck of new fleet. Nothing but an agreement which is not set in stone and open to change.

Whether this will happen or not is not my point. What I would like to know is how flight crew would respond, would it be any different to the feelings of cabin crew now. Try and understand where we are coming from.

Wiggy. Crew on airport and home standbys are more restrictive QRS is the better option for long haul.

I'm on a west coast USA trip. We were crew short at the briefing, a standby was needed. Unless (if there were l/h airport standbys) an airport standby had just come on duty - they couldn't be used. Delaying the flight whilst a home standby arrives incurrs additional costs and may have a knock on effect to schedules/connections. Having a ORS in a £30 room who will join us with 45mins and not delay the flight and not have duty hours issues is the best solution.

Everyone, I believe, understands where crew are coming from.

The difficulty I have grasping, and probably many, many others is that this alignment of contract is long, long overdue. The current working practices and pay of the CC do not fit into the modern age. The days of halcyon, rich air travel are over and the company needs to re-address that. Oddly enough most other departments have taken their re-adjustment and continued on with life. Flight ops went through it, the loaders and tug drivers are going through it now and the bus drivers took their share of pain a couple of years ago. Ground services and IM have all had their fair share as well.

As I have said before, BASSA have done extremely well holding on to the current T's & C's but the millstone is now getting too heavy for the corporate neck and something has to go. Openskies was seen as a trojan horse and has, subsequently died a death. Whether or not it would have expanded to 'Jet Star' proportions we will never know but there was a lot of crowing from the sidelines that 'it was about time Nigels got their commupence'. Much coming from crew. What it wasn't though was a change to our T's & C's as we had already gone through the negotiations on that one.

Change is inevitable. CC are one of the last bastions of the 70's working conditions. Work with the company to find common agreement or I really do feel that the corporate monster that is Waterworld will, this time, steamroller you.

PC767

Thanks but I'm still confused - and I'll also admit to playing the Devil's advocate here. I still don't see how Flight Ops can manage to provide emergency standby coverage for their longhaul departure's using just Home Standby's yet IFCE have to have QRSs on call at the airport. Whilst I accept crewing HKG can be difficult (a late night departure where the Home Standby has already been on call for a while) I have certainly been called out from Home Standby and legally operated trips to the likes of LAX, GRU and MRU in the past, :ok: so it's not that limiting.

Is the difference due to "scheme" ( the blue book) or, dare I say it, Union Agreements?

PC 767 flight deck at BA never have to incur costs and allowances staying in hotels on standby or for that matter at the airport on long haul.They have 2 hour home standby.How come they can do that and not cabin staff ?

We can. We also have 2hr standby, more 2hr standbys than QRS.

Perhaps flight ops plan better?

Perhaps flight crew are better motivated?

Who knows, and what new arguments/discussions will prevail.

What I do know is of the occassions I've been called from QRS and the occassions that other crew have been called form QRS which has prevented disruption. I also know of an occassion when 4 crew failed to make a HKG report because of an accident on the roads, there was no QRS available and the flight crew came close to running out of hours. We were fortunate that the 4 crew, because of the delay, made the flight. However for a while it didn't look good.

PC767: if wages are 99% of your dept's budget then if I was a BASSA rep I'd be asking them where on earth the hotel costs and everything else in IFCE fits in, that 99% doesn't make sense, does it? (I'm not saying he didn't say this BTW!)

On whose budget is everything else?!

BASSA should be delving deeply and coming up with ideas for savings which DON'T involve pay cuts, IMHO.

PC767,

Would you not be able to do the same with airport standbys, as we do at LGW? We cover both long and short haul from an airport standby and specific standbys will start at specific times to ensure the long haul flights flights are covered.

Please don't take this as an "if we can do it, why can't you" dig. It's a genuine question as to whether this would be possible as I'm not too familiar with QRS. You have many more l/h routes than us, especially the long range ones, which may make it unworkable for LHR, hence my query.

98.9% of IfCE budget goes on salaries. I believe Bassa have asked for a breakdown.

Jetset.

LGW standbys cover both long and short haul as you state. At LHR short haul operate airport standbys, and long haul operate a mixture of QRS and 2hr standbys.

QRS is an acronym for Quick Response Standby. You are based in either the Arora or Sofitel at LHR and you are on 45mins notice. QRS lasts for 3 days and is in 8hr blocks. Often the call out is to go direct to an aircraft.

The majority of stand by is via 2hr standby. For this no accomodation is provided and a minimum of 2hrs notice is given. Again 2hrs lasts for 3 days in 8hr blocks. Both standbys are part of a 9 day standby block duty with the remaining time being taken up with 24hr standby.

The general rule is that QRS is only used for issues at or near report time. Any other issues resulting in crew shortage are covered by 2hrs. Ie if an individual reports sick in the am for a pm flight, a 2hr standby will be notified.

I understand that at LGW airport standbys must be used for long haul within the first 2hrs of the start of standby to protect duty hours.
That would work for our shorter long hauls but not the longer range trips as scheme states 'if a crew member is on stand by duty on immediate readiness at an airport , then the allowable FDP is calculated using the start time of the stand by duty.'

Overstress,

CC HOTAC costs are included in the Flight Ops budget. 88m with approx a 20/80% split between flight crew/cabin crew. Believe it’s all up for re-assessment in the coming weeks though.

Pre3

Anyone care to mention how nice the inside of an airport Travelodge is then???

the sublect of airport hotels around the world has been brought up before and strange as it is BA manage to get better deals away from the airport, with a few exceptions such as BOM.
I guess airport hotels are in demand and can get more than the $20 per room per night BA pay !!

Airport hotels=non starter. In most places as stated above they generally are more expensive. City hotels are suffering in the recession and offer better deals anyway.

Hi guys,

I know this may look a little bit off topic, but when I watched this video and remembered that not long ago a Spanair plane crashed, killing 154, and so many other accidents had happened since, that didn't have such a happy ending as the BA038 (thanks to the whole crew) or the US Airways 1549 (thanks to the whole crew again), I couldn't help but ask myself what I am doing here, at 38,000ft, working in an industry that values so little my job, my health and in the worst of the cases, my life.

When we have a safe flight it's easy to forget what the main purpose of our job is and how important it is (and the risks involved). And we also forget that the current T&C's are there for a reason: how healthy is to cross 6 or 7 time zones, having a nightstop and then flying back to base?. I've done that with my previous employer and I felt like rubbish.
Or having three days shorthaul flights followed by a three day longhaul with a lovely night flight to finish it off?. I can confirm that you feel like rubbish as well.
And then they come up with the happy idea of a new mixed fleet and the even happier "ideas&opportunities" wish list.
I wouldn't be surprised if next time they ask us to work for free, just for the peace of mind of the shareholders.

Well guys, have a look at the video and think about it for just a sec.

YouTube - VIDEO #2 of FedEx Cargo Jet Crashing in Tokyo, Japan

Rant over,
Cheers!

Cabin Crew play a large part in the safe operation of Cargo flights do they? :rolleyes:

Tenwest,

Was there really any need for that comment ?

The video illustrates what can go wrong in our choice of career not that cabin crew work on cargo aircraft !!

I just wonder if you are on here just to have a pop at cabin crew at every opportunity ?

From reading your recent posts and username, I assume you are not cabin crew and as the mods mentioned earlier in this thread, this part or PPRuNe is for cabin crew rather than all and sundry to have a go at cabin crew !!

I'll ignore the "Pr**k" reference as I never stoop to personal insults, but:

Why not post references to the Manchester disaster in the 80's?

Cabin Crew saved a lot of lives there. Surely a more relevant comparison?

British Airtours Flight 28M - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fair enough.

I stand corrected. I hope everything works out for you all to your satisfaction.

Best wishes, and goodbye. :ok:

BuckD: "They" would be delighted of course. What employees in BA have to worry about is the management giving 90 days notice on your contract if your dept can't/won't make the savings BA are demanding.

This applies to all groups, not just cabin crew. WW is rumoured to be prepared to do this. If IFS/IFCE don't come up with the goods it could be an interesting few months.

If BA decide to vary anyone's contract this is what the law says:

If you want to read the full monty on this the link is here

I post this not to scaremonger but to try to introduce some reality to the thread, I hope BASSA are on the ball.

PS: As I understand it, if you are dismissed in this way you take the company to tribunal, or county court if you can prove measurable loss. However I am not a lawyer, I know that there are a few on this forum.

Interesting comparrison between this thread and a new one in Rumours & News (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...al-action.html)

Thus far it seems Pilots threatening strike action about a company revising their T&Cs is acceptable. One poster in opposition was put in place. Amongst the changes - reduction in crew water.

Personally I wish the aggrieved well. In my Conservative with a small c mind there is much about opportunistic t&c stripping going on rather than a simple battle for survival in the mindset of KPI bonus chasing senior managers.

There is a balance to be achieved.

PC767: balance yes, but there is much to be said for not leaving yourself open to this kind of management opportunism. It could be construed that BASSA has done just that.... :uhoh:

Could this new fleet be crewed by Cabin Crew & Pilots on new T & C's ?

The new fleet may well be crewed by CC on new T&Cs, but not pilots on new T&Cs. One thing the OpenSkies debacle did clarify was that the Scope agreement was cast in stone. BASSA have for years been happy with several sets of T&C's within the BA CC community. Custom and practice would fatally weaken any objections BASSA may have against another different set of T&C's within the CC they represent. BA have quite clearly demonstrated how willing they are to use legal tools to get their own way. Any union deciding to call for IA better ensure they are legally watertight or they will find themselves in a very poor position.

I'm sure there are lots of other avenues to explore

Rights and things
 

I am not CC but an interested part time pax.

I read a lot here about rights and potential unfairness.

Undoubtably, you will have T&C that were agreed to at some point in time. However, things change. The actual governing principle here is supply and demand.

There are more A/C, more Pilots and many more CC than anyone needs. So the price for each will fall. The unions may be doing a great job in trying to protect working conditions, however, when it comes to money - it will either work for the company or not. If not, no company!