Hiflyer14 said:

Yes. The company is shrinking, 1500ish cabin crew are deemed to be in surplus. BA have served the 90 day consultation papers, to cover VR and CR for up to 2000 heads, if BA don't get the 2000 head count reduction on their terms, then they will simply use CR, so as you say sit tight, and it could be you being made redundant.

This just in for information, of course it could just be Willie Walsh making it all up again:rolleyes::rolleyes:

DA Dog quoted:

Please can we all be a little less vicious in our approach. I am not a militant member of cabin crew, I am unlikely to strike, I AM prepared to work harder and be more productive - but I DO NOT want to be sat at home on basic pay when New Fleet have been given our work. Is that such a sin?

I seem to remember how when OpenSkies was seen as such a "threat" to Pilots' T&C's we were all asked for our support then, but now however cabin crew are expected to roll over and accept the New Fleet.

Double standards methinks...

HiFlyer14

No, not a sin, but probably unlikely to happen. WW will not see you sat at home on basic pay. Those surplus to requirements will be out of the company.

Your approach is laudable - you are prepared to work harder and be more productive. What you need to do is to tell BASSA to negotiate those changes on your behalf.

If BASSA were to do that, the £xxmillion CC target would likely be met without a great reduction in take home pay, because fewer would be required (esp in shorthaul - think reducing broken links, agreeing to fixed links thus reducing standby numbers of crew; in longhaul think changing the disruption agreement that has cost multi millions this year alone), and those numbers could be taken out of the business by part time etc with all working harder when at work, thus reducing unit costs which is WW's objective.

The time is NOW to ask your reps to explain fully the pros and cons and not just spout out 1970's rhetoric.

BALPA NEVER asked anyone for support in our fight - that would have been illegal under the law of the land. There are/were differences wrt SCOPE agreements (which pilots have but cabin crew never have had). In the end the company came lately upon a legal loophole and triumphed - something that EU Unions are collectively seeking to overturn in the future.

In fact, you could argue that what BALPA were trying to defend with OpenSkies a year ago, and BASSA then ignored, is now coming home to roost for BASSA members BECAUSE you don't have a SCOPE agreement with the company, and hence our OpenSkies fight is now your New Fleet fight and, for you, equally unwinnable in law.

So, in conclusion, I re-iterate, if you want to keep your jobs (and the majority of your current benefite), now is the time to INSTRUCT your union to negotiate the necessary changes on your behalf (they represent YOU after all) before something 100% worse is imposed on you all ...... better to retain 90% of what you have than nothing at all, imho!

HiFlyer14

I totally agree with you!

Im glad you posted your thoughts as this thread went very quiet for a while so Im guessing lots of Crew felt the same but were reluctant to voice their feelings in case we were in the minority.

Times are a'changing.........not all for the better but necessary for 21st Century! Its not all about Crew rest. Watching TV today there are working men taking home £100 a week and no sleeping after they clock on!!!!!

Hiflyer14, sorry you found my post so vicious, it truly was not meant to be, just a plain and simple observation of what is likely to happen with the few facts I have, from a very good source.

You need to communicate your thoughts to BASSA, they seem to make some sense. (ie you make good sense not BASSA) unfortunately I'm guessing if you voiced them on their own forum you would be shot down in flames, a shame really.

All BA employees have hobson's choice really. Negotiate the best deal with whats on offer or face the consequences........bankruptcy and redundancy, at best someone might pick some of the best bits out and keep it running, but ask anyone from Alitalia or Swiss what this feels like, and what sort of T&Cs/pay they enjoy now.

For what its worth BA went shopping for a loan a few weeks ago to see them through the winter, its rumored they wanted £300 million. Not one bank/institution wanted to lend the money, on any
terms until employee restructuring took place.

TopBunk said:
The current negotiations are a charade. The proposal is take it or it will be imposed. Walsh wants 'New Fleet' at all costs. It gives BA enormous savings but most of all it ultimately rids the airline of all crew on current terms and conditions and salaries.

It could take 2/3/4/5 years, who knows, but come the day it is cheerio.
From day one of 'New Fleet' all current crew will see a steady decline in variable earnings (approx 10k p.a.) as work is transferred and then.....no job.:ooh:

The world has changed. Once companies are used to not booking expensive club world tickets for their employees they will not want to return to that when the eventual economic recovery arrives.

BA can no longer afford its 'cost base' and salaries will reduce for all.

Compulsory redundancy will happen if BASSA doesn't agree something by the end of June.

Who wants to be in the last union to make an agreement, as the deadline approaches?

Cabin Crew compulsory redundancies will happen. 2000 HCE will not be achieved through part-time contracts and voluntary redundancy.

QRS,

It's a well known fact that unions cannot ballot for strike over "New fleet", as it is perfectly legal to start this fleet up. I very much doubt that you will lose £10k p.a. as you've predicted, at least for the next few years. New fleet is starting up with 500 cc. They won't have very many routes to start with. I know the unions keep crying about the high money earning trips going first, but in communications from the LT they've said that's not happening.

That said, however, I do not necessarily believe everything the company tells me. I would be stupid if I did. If I were you, I'd get in touch with your union and get them to ask the company asap as to which routes they are intending to give to New fleet. Hey, maybe you'll get lucky and they'll take away your "non-earners", such as Indian routes and Newcastle, who knows?

The main point is, that we cannot strike over the New fleet issue, whether we like it or not. I'd recommend all Union members to send an email to their rep as to what they are willing to forego from their t&c's. At least then you'll possibly have a say in the matter.

Gg

QRS, Its taken over 11 years for the post 97 crew to be 50% of the total cabin crew. At a time when BA had high growth and high turnover of staff (4.2%) because people had other jobs to go to. Its now no growth and very low turn over because people don't have other jobs to go to.

Where do you get that you will be 10K a year worse of?? That is a lot of box payments.

The company are offering a matrix of routes to be transferred to minimise the impact on crews average earnings.

I'm just wondering where your "facts" are coming from?

My information is that there is still much on the table about where the money can be saved, either out of your pocket, or you work harder. What will happen is if BASSA says NO we are going on strike, then BAs idea of where the money can be saved will be imposed, the choice is yours for the moment.

FWIW, we are all in the same situation.:(:(

Hi Rainbow - thanks for the support! Yes, I agree there are alot of like minded people out there. Unfortunately it is the voice of BASSA that gets heard above it all.

DA DOG - sorry I was probably a bit tetchy!!:uhoh: One thing we all have in common is that we are ALL worried about the state of our company and OUR JOBS (Pilots, Cabin crew, ground staff etc.). It makes things very tense! But there is a lot of "take it or be made redundant" being bandied about (onboard as well) and that is quite upsetting too. We all seem to get tarred with the BASSA broom!

So what do the likes of Rainbow. myself and many, many others do? We are not getting any information from either side as to what is happening. Glamgirl's suggestion of emailing what T&Cs you would forego could be beneficial, but is that going to be enough for WW? Will UNITE listen?

It has been suggested that a RE-NEWED fleet and not a NEW fleet is the way forward - but is that what is being discussed? Many of us would be more than happy with that.

How can we influence UNITE when it just seems to be happening around us? The two sides have historically always been at loggerheads, and because of that, now seem unable to see the woods for the trees. The only losers will be us the employees.:sad:

Fears of strike action as BA tells cabin crew 2,000 jobs must go - Times Online

I'm sure this will do wonders for our forward cash income:ugh::ugh:

Da Dog said:

Bill Francis has turned down BASSAs offer of New Crew joining existing fleets for several reasons not least that it would take a similar number of years, as Da Dog describes above, to achieve any significant cost savings.
Additionally, the New Crew on new T and Cs will still work the same trip structure as existing crew albeit with reduced MBTs (days rest after trip). This also impacts on the ability to save money by, for example, not giving BA the trip length flexibilty they require: nightstop LAX, SFO and so on.

I say again that an entirely New Fleet with mixed flying is what WW is 'determined' to see introduced. It gives BA complete flexibility over the whole, admittedly small in the beginning, operation.
IMHO, in time, the amount of work that is retained by the existing fleets will dwindle and with it all variable elements of pay. Box payments, over-time, allowances. There may even come a time when existing crew are barely working which could therefore cost the individual a high % of their variable earnings e.g. £10,000.

Bill Francis claims his 'intention' is to transfer work to the New Fleet via a matrix and as existing crew leave at the current rate of 'around 2%.' I don't buy that for several reasons. Not least:

1. Reducing a headcount of 13000 by half would take 34 years at an attrition rate 2% p.a.

2. Any sign of an upturn in the business will allow Bill or his successor to change the key driver of New Fleet to growth and expansion of the airline.

I believe the proposed reduction in crewing levels will impact on customer service levels/standards. At some point in the future BA may well concede this to be the case.
Also, when the opportunity arises and sufficient numbers exist on New Fleet BA could quite conceivably transfer an enormous amount of work over and, as insufficient work remains for existing crew, push crewing levels back up rather than have them sat around doing nothing.

I agree that there are many other cost-saving options yet to be discussed but not as an alternative to New Fleet.

We are caught between UNITE and Management - who both appear to have their own agenda, and unable to compromise, negotiate or come to any reasonable solution.

And now it appears Pilots just want to constantly remind us of the (disputable) fact that we're all going to be made redundant, if we don't agree.

Can we have something a little more constructive please? I have stated my case, others have joined in and we would genuinely like to have some ideas as to how to make our voices heard, above two very strong-willed groups. It's not an easy position to be in. So yes, I do feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall.:ugh:

Hi. For anyone actually lacking the facts on our remuneration, take a look at the CAA website. It shows the total cost to the employer. You will see that on average, BA Cabin Crew cost twice as much as Virgin Cabin Crew.

Quite a lot to pay someone who serves pre-heated food. We need to recognise that things need to change.

The data is at http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=80&pagetype=88&sglid=1&fld=2008Annual look at Table 1 14

HiFlyer, our representatives are doing everything within their power to come up with options to save the required cash. Rest assured. However, if you feel they are not then you personally need to communicate your concerns.

BA have not moved an inch. I keep saying it.........New Fleet.

Even the current offer of part-time is linked to it. Why would anybody take a part-time contract with so much uncertainty around the implications of the current proposals.

You may not even have a job to do at all let alone part-time.

Further to my post above. Several colleagues that have been offered a part-time contract have declined. A decision based, quite simply, on the uncertain implications of how New Fleet will impact on their future, now part-time, earnings.

There is no chance of 2000 Headcount Equivalent crew taking Voluntary Redundancy and/or part-time. So Compulsory Redundancy is a cert.

Imastweardsothere
I don't think there's a crew member amongst us that doesn't realise "things have to change". So I repeat my question - how do we do it when we are caught between a rock and a hard place?

Suggestions and genuine concern would be far more helpful and beneficial than flinging insults and yet more facts that have already been delivered to us by Powerpoint on an Intouch day.

What are your suggestions to solve the problem?

My starters for 10? We are going to have to face facts that the business has changed, and can no longer afford some of its cost base.

We have to accept that those of us with mortgages may need to alter the term, and to lead a less extravagant lifestyle.

Our Union needs to negotiate, not just to say no. It must negotiate a package that allows us to carry on earning a salary, not throwing our toys out of the pram and having a strike which results in the airline shutting down, throwing us all out of work.

We cannot dump our passengers as the result of a long sector and demand 48 hours off. We cannot continue with our ludicrous allowances system. Why should a breakfast time flight be worth anything different to a lunchtime or a dinner time flight? We do we need high crew numbers on domestic shorthaul flights, when the product has changed significantly?

We need to accept change. We all have outgoings, but our cost is twice that of Virgin. Can we really afford, as a group, having CSD's earning close to £40,000 pa as basic pay before allowances, in a non-working role?

Times have changed. We must as well.

CHANGE is Barak Obamas mantra.......and its working!

Therefore, reading between the lines here, MANY Crew feel the same and are either too frightened, confused or being misled into making a decision railroaded by the (seemingly) large numbers who feel they have to strike.

I'm sticking my neck out but here goes.......
Only a suggestion, and it might need tweeking, but who thinks it would help if we emailed our Managers or Bill Francis direct to voice our feelings and willingness to co-operate? Im very sure Bassa are working incredibly hard but this is an unprecedented situation that will change our lives forever!

I dont want to alienate Bassa as I would keep them in the loop and my efforts are full of good intentions, not political sabotage.

Hang on a second here folks.

Who are BASSA, they are not a separate entity!

They are your representatives who do what you ask of them - you elect them after all.

Speak to them, demand answers, demand a members meeting and when a meeting is scheduled - attend it and don't follow the herd mentality - if you don't, then don't sit there feeling sorry for yourself.

I'm sorry, but sometimes 'tough love' is what is required.

BASSA are backs to the wall at the moment because they have never had to negotiate in the last 20 years, they have just said 'No' and have lost the skill required to 'trade' to a satisfactory deal.

Contrast the way in which BALPA deal with the company - regular detailled bsuiness talks with the CEO and CFO, adult to adult reviews and root and branch reviews of options etc put forward freely by both sides culminating in a hopefully successful outcome that delivers for both parties.

Ok, so there have been recent conflicts (Openskies for one), but in the past decade there have been successful conclusions to wage restructuring and work coverage talks.

It is time for the cabin crew community to take control of their destinies again by regaining control of BASSA. Only you can do that.

Thanks TopBunk

Your input is constructive and encouraging. Its a start. With time running out before the end of June, more suggestions please?

Very hard to be constructive and helpful, a CSD the other day was very upset, he'd been to see BASSA about the lack of work for them and wanted a solution.
The rep was very agressive towards him, he was left in no uncertain terms as to what happens if you don't follow the BASSA way.

Look at that meeting at the race course, 100% votes for everything, no one dared question or speak against them.
Try it yourself, go see the BASSA people in their offices and give your "reasonable" suggestions, let us all know how you get on.

Very hard for you all.

I also here lots of things along the lines of "we are happy to work harder but don't want to lose money".
Very admirable especially for shorthaul with the 500 hour averages.
Then suggest fixed links and its "oh no couldn't possibly do those, we'd be very tired".
Suggest not having 6 crew to give out nuts on a domestic and it's "oh no, you don't know how hard it is, we have drinks to serve as well.
Suggest perhaps 15 crew on a jumbo is a tad too many and it's "oh no, how tired we would all be, what about crew rest and passenger service will suffer".

The savings have to be made one way or another but quite how 14,000 different minded crew and a stubborn union will sort a solution that makes you all happy I have no idea.

Good luck though.

That's the way things are.

BASSA is very strict and dare you question anything you will be in for a very tough fight. Think about the "name and shame" quiz they did a couple of months ago over a CSD who decided to make their own way to London from Prestwick.

Another issue is the hot towels in WTP. It would take crew less than two minutes to do them but because BASSA had not approved it shouldn't be done. I once did them, because the CSD asked me to do it, and a certain crew member went mad at me because BASSA told us not do to it!

Certain crew has to ask themselves: are we there for the passengers or not? They are after all paying our salaries.

Topbunk has hit the nail on the head with the last post.

BASSA has relied far too long on the mantra of 'no, now what's the question?' and it is now coming to hurt those that BASSA represents.

For years now many other groups within BA have warned the BASSA negotiating (?) team that their attitude towards negotiations was flawed. However, they pressed ahead and they won out. Time and time again. As a result they triumphed themselves against the other groups who took concessions and adjusted their T's & C's to fit the modern age. All this was fine until the crunch really hit. Now, through inadequate negotiation on YOUR BEHALF, BASSA has left you all hanging in mid air with, potentially, an awful long way to fall. Thus that necessary adjustment will be painful.

We saw this in the last mess of a CC ballot. 7 or 8 differing things to ballot over? From sickness procedure to ingrowing toenails? The vast majority of CC were poorly informed by BASSA as to their rights and legal stand point with respect to striking. There was little or no communication as to the fact that if BA resolved ONE item on the ballot list then the rest of the ballot would be null and void.

Now we get to the point where the company has the gloves off, they want to re-adjust BA CC wages and conditions in line with those throughout the world and the adjustment will be painful. If you want to compare this with the dispute over Open Skies then fine but take away one very salient point, BA won that dispute on very tenuous legal grounds but nevertheless they won and have the resources, still, to do so again. Instead of the normal BASSA stance they should be out canvassing their members, polling what would be the least painful path through this mess and negotiating as adults with the company.

Failure to do so will result in the activation of the compulsory redundancy plan that the company has in place already. The company is giving ALL DEPARTMENTS the chance to get their workplaces in order before the management come in and do it for them. Willie wants this done and dusted so that he can get the required funding in place for the coming bloody financial year. He won't be able to do that with industrial unrest hanging over the company and, to be honest, public opinion is definitely NOT on the side of a strike for 'cushy' working practices.

Time will, once again, tell.

Conduct by union reps in that manner has been illegal for a number of years...

Please Don't Strike
 

:confused:
As Willy said in KL, a major airline may well go bust in the near future. All a strike will achieve is greatly increase the likelihood that the airline will be BA!
My small airline went bankrupt in December: over 90% of both flight & cabin crew are still out of work.
The recession will eventually come to an end & people will start travelling again. Until then, patience is a virtue.

BA cabin crew are "the face of the airline", they are the "best in the world", they are not plate layers, they are trained to fight fires, save lives, heavens one of them is even "in charge".
They have elevated themselves to a position so high they couldn't possibly climb down.
Old contract crew take home more than some First Officers, that just proves how important they are.

Yes WE know it's all rubbish but they actually believe all this stuff, some will fight to the death to keep all they have.

It's worked after every crisis there has ever been, it may even work again, who knows. :sad:

And the rest I'm afraid. A 12 year "old contract" purser gets a 35K BASIC and circa an average of £1500-£2000 per month in extras. Thats about 55k annual. Longhaul full time crew get near to 900 hours, shorthaul are very inefficient due agreements and only do 500-600 hours.

New entrants have low basics 10k-18k scale so with allowances earn a lot less but still a good wage.

To be clear, not all crew earn double everyone else but if you account for old contract high basic, everyones high allowances, the inefficient rostering and the huge number of standby crew to cover inflexible on the day disruption then BA crew as a whole cost double the nearest competitor.

Trouble is we all live to our means and a cut is a cut, it hurts whatever you earn, trouble is that double market rate is unsustainable.

P.S. Gatwick crew excluded, they earn low basics, have normal allowances, work hard, don't add to disruption and are generally a lot happier bunch.
Must be a lot of internal envy/frustration.

Peterlondon,

To put it simply, there are no justifications as to why Lhr crew earn so much more than Lgw crew. The company's line is that "to remain competetive and Lgw is in direct competition with Lo-Co's...bla bla". Still doesn't make it right. Also, Lhr crew get London weighting, whereas we don't, as we're 200 yards within the wrong county. But such is life. There will be a difference for ever, pretty much, and I've come to terms with that a long time ago.

Gg

Peterlondon
 

It depends on rank and when the crew were employed. The crew recruited before 1997 are on the old contract which is a very good deal. Most of them are also on part-time because they can afford it. Some of them earn more money than myself and many other crew who were recruited after 1997 and still work full-time.

LHR has always been first priority for the union. This explains the differences between LGW and LHR. The crew working out of LGW are really providing a fantastic service with both less pay and crew complement onboard.

Justificatin for higher salary at LHR? None.

Making faces behind passengers is not acceptable. It's also very childish. Unfortunately you would see staff like that everywhere and not only in BA.

......... and while the future of the airline is in peril,people are looking CR in the eye, over on the BASSA forum the hot topic is that crew must get 3 hours rest on an LHR-GRU, either that or the service must be adjusted (meaning no breakfast):rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Rome burns...............

Wake up please:{:{

There's rather a big song and dance about various newpaper comments (online) on another forum, calling people who has commented all names under the sun. Classy, not so much.

Gg

My God look at all these 140k pa Captains virtually grooming the CC to hand back their T & C s whilst ensuring their enormous salaries remain intact! Get real guys. If the company cannot afford the new contract salary my household receives they cannot afford yours then can they?

Thanks Imast for your starter for 10 - I agree!

And to TopBunk, Plodding, Wobble thanks - we were finally getting somewhere - until the tone got lowered.:*

We are where we are. You can debate all you like about how much LHR cabin crew are paid, but that is what BA set out to pay its' crew, however long ago. We have a contract of employment and even Bill Francis has stated on intouch days, it is not our fault - BA agreed to it and he doesn't (allegedly) want to impact on that.

And yes, I fully agree that we have arrived at this point due to BASSA's inability to negotiate and always saying no. As Nuigini states it is very difficult if you dare to stick your neck out, and I too have battled onboard with issues "because BASSA said no." So what can we do......?

Well, for me, there ARE numerous changes that could be made to make us more productive. So, I AM going to stick my neck out and list a few just off the top of my head....

Back-to-back hotels
QRS hotels
Fixed Links
Crew complements onboard
Disruption Agreement
Global Alleviation

But...both sides have put a communication freeze on and I think this is really unhelpful. Under STS we were kept informed - not so under this regime, and I find it frightening. What is going on? Are they discussing things like the above, or is New Fleet the ONLY option for WW?

I sincerely believe that there are many more like Rainbow and myself, but as stated it REALLY is daunting beyond belief to dare to speak out.

One lone voice at a very militant BASSA meeting just ain't gonna crack it I'm afraid....

pinkaroo
 

Who has told you/why are you alledging Flight Crew salaries are going to remain intact? Since the BALPA Reps are deep in negotiation with the Company and haven't told their members what is being negotiated I'm sure you (and BASSA) don't have a clue what's in store for Flight Crew.

My guess is we will all be asked to take a hit, even the "140K pa" Captains......does that make you feel any better?

Wiggy, No it doesn't. I'm on record here supporting your T & C's. I am irritated by the last few posts from individuals who may even be senior management grooming those not alert enough to spot it, supported by LGW crew/ crew with applications in with other airlines (N*****i), into agreeing to taking a financial hit. Long may your T & C's continue.Stop wishing it on others folks.

Pinkaroo,

We're not wishing ill on anyone or looking forward to it or however you put it. But we do realise that something has to give. Urgently.

I'm fully capable of thinking for myself, and I'm in no way groomed by anyone. Are you groomed by Bassa per chance? Do you believe everything they say?

Seriously, have a sit down and think about it (again). Nobody is trying to take away your money. Have you been informed by Bassa what the company wants, in regards to your t&c's? New fleet doesn't count, by the way. As far as I'm concerned, nothing specific has been released yet, in regards to t&c's being changed. It's all galleyfm and hearsay at the moment.

I know you (and another 14000 crew) don't want New fleet, but it will happen, whether we like it or not, and there is no legal reason to strike over the matter.

I also know that Bassa suggested to the company to not set up New fleet, but employ future crew on yet another contract, paid less than current contract (more like Lgw contract), and work the network as it stands. This proves to me that Bassa doesn't give a flying monkey about anyone but themselves and current Lhr crew. It is obvious discrimination to even suggest such a thing. Is there any wonder that Lgw crew don't trust Bassa?

Gg

Pinkaroo,

I really don't appreciate being accused of being part of management because I simply sympathise with LGW at the same time thinking realistically that things have to change at LHR. It's actually possible for LHR based crew to feel for our colleagues down the road at Gatters... perhaps you should try.