Miss M and Hubert.

I have worked for BA for 22 years and in that 22 years they have been nothing other than a good employer. You paint a picture of a management that I don't recognise at all.

In 97 they protected current crew when they altered the salary structure and again now they have agreed to protect current crew. All along they have said that current crew can keep their terms and conditions and they have bent over backwards to try accommodate this.

It is Bassa that always messes things up and has made all this change a complete nightmare.

I know all of you will say Bassa have always negotiated all your terms and conditions, they are wonderful etc etc. but that is not true. Since the late 80's Cabin crew 89(Amicus) have always done the negotiating while Bassa always refuse to talk and then afterwards Bassa always lie to their membership and take the credit for what CC89 negotiate!!!That's the truth.

It is their union in-fighting that has contributed to this mess also. Many of us can clearly see what is happening and that is why we did not strike.

I will however agree that Willie Walsh is probably not an easy person to deal with and that removing Staff Travel has made it all more complicated but in my eyes the true cause of this mess is the inflated egos of some of the union reps ie. DH. who seems to have developed a God like persona.

BG in fact the deal was a guarantee that was to be reviewed after three years. There was no mention in the first instance of its removal. Furthermore, BA were less than veracious with their proposal. The calculation that was used at the time was inconsistent in its usage in that certain aspects of pay were omitted from the comparable calculation from previous payments; Motor Transport Allowanced for one.
I and others queeried this at the time, via Contact, however the spin that was put on it, and the fact that my letter was edited in such a way that it enabled them to sidestep the issue, was an eerie foreboding of the lies and spin being perpetrated now.
Leopards never change their spots!:=

Rob,
Quite frankly I am amazed that you feel badly done by the 97 agreement. I have never heard anyone in the last 13 years say they felt worse off except for post 97 crew, who like Mixed Fleet crew, new what the salary was when they joined.

That does not however mean that I feel that Mixed Fleet pay is OK. I do not and have been vocal on that point all along. However I would have liked our unions to have been there negotiating on behalf of both us and new crew, instead of calling people out on a damaging strike that has made everything all much worse.

Isn't that exactly *when* you want a union doing sensible and detailed negotiation on your behalf? Why didn't it happen?

Not true Rob Bedcrew! Money back guarantee had an end date which was open to review. What happened was that the cost of administration at the end overtook the number of claims. BA then said it had served its purpose and would not continue. Motor transport had nothing to do with it having been incorporated in a different deal. Your letter in Contact was probably answered accurately be you saw it as 'Spin'!

If one is quoted a money back guarantee surely all the factors in the equation should be used to balance. Basic algebra must surely tell you that.
Omitting the MTA allowance would not allow for a direct comparison.

Betty Girl
What will non unionised crew do when BA break this agreement as isn't that what started this whole farce in the first place?

the x's
 

When they first appeared I hoped they were kisses goodbye, but I now guess they are a count down to Bassa's appeal on the 11th.

There are two more x's to come -

xxxx.bassa.co.uk/xxx.gif

and

xxxx.bassa.co.uk/xxxx.gif

Betty Girl such true words. I can't believe I paid money to those muppets for so many years and got nothing in return. All BASSA seem to be able to do is make things worse.

Miss M

It is this sort of dual standards that really astounds me. Here is Miss M, a true stalwart advocate of the BASSA action, laudable irrespective of your view point, considering VR if the package is good enough.

Let's turn the clock back to the start of this sorry dispute and look at the requirement for all departments to shed jobs. All departments were told that VR could be offered IF, and only if, productivity were increased to allow the same workload to be shared amongst the remaining employees.

I seem to remember that some 2400 VR applications were received by IFcE from members of the CC. These VR applications were put on ice due to the inability of BASSA to negotiate changes thus ensuring the required productivity. Only after BA exhausted the negotiation path and put up with the purile infighting of BASSA for an extra 6 months were the changes imposed and the VR applications rubber stamped thus ensuring no compulsory redundancies.

Now we have members of BASSA who demand retraction of the productivity changes but want a golden egg VR package as well? It would seem that anything goes in BASSA as long as the individual is 'alright jack'. I wonder why all of the LH CSD's who make up the board want to protect their 'legacy' past?

Sometimes it is the little things that reveal the true murky nature of self centerism that lies beneath.

tash 55, I am sorry you feel that and maybe I could have phrased it better in my post. I in no way meant to imply that my crew were anything other than very nice and chatty with this crew member. His unhappiness on the flight came from his discomfort in talking to us, for some reason he did not want to engage which is an important part of CRM. It is interesting though that my making an extra effort to get him to put his prejudices aside could be seen by you as disgusting behaviour so I will ask him when I next see him if he felt that way. I will also edit my post so that it is clearer.
What do the other forumites think? Is it unacceptable to try and get withdrawn crew to engage with the team or should they be allowed to be as quiet as they like? What do the other SCCM's do to improve crew morale?

flapsforty
Moderator


Mohitomaster, this thread is about BA CC industrial relations.

Not about shenanigans on other forums.

That's good to know. Does this mean, however, that those who have prolifically copy and pasted from BASSA and Crewforum will now have their posts deleted?

Many thanks.

Betty Girl

We are dealing with a different management this time. 13 years was a long time ago. They are saying that they want to protect current crew. That's why we need a watertight agreement because face it or not Mixed Fleet will make existing fleets come to an end. Quicker than you think. They say it will take at least 10 years which is rubbish. They have looked at the history and simply multiplied it with 10. They are already recruiting 1250 crew a year which is around 10% of the current crew numbers.

It should be interesting to see in three years what stance management will take towards you when they want to re-negotiate, or should I say discuss, your pay. Be rest assured that they are wanting to decrease it because many lucrative routes have gone over to Mixed Fleet and thus your average yearly earning should be less.

You say that you did not strike because you can see what is happening. Here's a question to you. Could it be that you did not strike because you relied on others to do it for you?

Quote:

---

We are dealing with a different management this time. 13 years was a long time ago. They are saying that they want to protect current crew. That's why we need a watertight agreement because face it or not Mixed Fleet will make existing fleets come to an end. Quicker than you think. They say it will take at least 10 years which is rubbish. They have looked at the history and simply multiplied it with 10. They are already recruiting 1250 crew a year which is around 10% of the current crew numbers.

---

There's no denying that we are dealing with a different mangement this time Miss M, it's a far more intelligent mangement. So is is striking going to sort out the growth of Mixed Fleet? BASSA have blown it big time and they know it, that's the problem with the BASSA mentality, blame everyone else except for themselves.
Get back to your reps and get some new intelligent ones elected who may at least try and salvage things. As someone suggested in a an earlier post, get a 'New BASSA' in and you might possibly see crew sticking together in a united front. Stop blaming BA and take some accountability for a change.
A cheap shot, Miss M.:=

Everyone who crossed the picket line is responsible for Mixed Fleet. Don't ever believe that you did yourself, or this company, a favour for not going on strike. It was a short-sighted, and may I dare say selfish, decision of you.

We want some sort of control of Mixed Fleet which BA is not willing to provide us. They are willing to 'discuss' route transfers and such with us but nothing else. Discuss means nothing.

Would this 'New BASSA' be the PCCC? They still remain anonymous and keep insisting on doing it. How are they going to offer us some sort of representation?

But possibly an accurate one. Some insist on having your cake and eating it too.

Miss M,
You know well, that all this strike has done is cause you damage and lost you some pay and your staff travel. It has caused BA damage, damage to it's name and reputation. It has caused all of us crew damage, now being viewed so badly by so many, you just have to look at all the posts from our passengers on pprune. But the most damage it has done is to the union itself by making such a stupid decision to strike in the first place. It has lost all moral high ground because it was an ill thought out strike over a ridiculous issue that most crew were not even bothered about. It has actually lost Bassa any power it ever had. More fool DH, he was actually told by one of his own reps back in November that he needed to wait for the November pay roll before balloting but he just went ahead with an illegal ballot in full knowledge of what he was doing. It is DH that has let you down and he has let Bassa down also. No one else.


It is easy to blame those of us that could see this from the start but even if all crew had striked it would have made absolutely NO difference because only weeks later the volcanic dust shut BA down completely. It was clear to see that Willie Walsh would have just ridden out a strike in just the same way.

Bassa have never negotiated in good faith, often not even bothering to sit down at the negotiating table, and that is why this is such a mess and it is people like YOU, that need to do something about it and get a new Bassa Chairman elected instead of holding on to the complete fool, that is not even eligible anymore to be your leader.

P.S. Mixed fleet was off the table until Bassa started the strike. Wake up and stop blaming every one except yourselves for this mess.

There you go again Miss M, blaming everyone else. Current crew, Pilots, VCCs and the rest of the world. I'm not a member of BASSA Miss M, and I haven't been for years!
You say 'discuss means nothing' and that's precisely why we are here right now because of BASSA's refusal to discuss. Your statement 'we want control of Mixed Fleet' is staggering! It says it all.:ugh:

MissM
 

Without exception, all your posts are very pro BASSA, your views extremely anti-management, very distrusting of them, only you and BASSA are 'correct', and no other department, in your opinion, are as pertinent to the operation as 'you'.
May I ask, are BASSA, to your mind, totally flawless, and are you content with all those that currently represent you?
Thank you MissM

MissM - I'm keen to avoid the all-too-frequent ganging up on supporters of one side of this dispute - but...

Why should you have control of MF? You, me and all the rest of our colleagues are merely salaried employees of BA, a commercial company run on behalf of the shareholders by the Board.

Historically, BA have gone beyond their statutory (and moral) duties in including our representatives in discussions and decisions taken to improve the business, and we have all reaped the benefits over the years.

However, we have no 'right' to control anything. If it is beneficial to BA to discuss things with us (and it usually is - happy, involved staff are more productive than miserable, excluded staff) then they will. If it is not beneficial from a purely commercial viewpoint, then they do not need to discuss. They are never going to 'guarantee' anything anymore - least of all control of commercial decisions to a staff group.

Miss M
 

Please don't do anything like that for me Miss M. If you should ever have a valid and legitimate reason for going on strike then I will join you.


Why not see if you can stretch your memory a little further? The responsibility for mixed fleet lays squarely at the feet of the BASSA committee. They were the ones that whipped the small percentage of union members into a "NO NEGOTIATION" frenzy at the racecourse. By far the most selfish and short sighted decision of this whole saga was the one of DH to push for a strike at all costs. What makes you think he sees his members as anything more than cash cows and cannon fodder?

Betty Girl

Management should be held responsible over what you are mentioning what this strike has caused. A full strike with very few crew crossing the picket line would have caused a huge chaos and I don't think WW would have ridden it out.

BA would have gone ahead with Mixed Fleet either way. Temporarily it might have been integrated with existing fleets but be rest assured that sooner or later they would have introduced a separate fleet. Remember this document regarding OC? They have been planning a new fleet for many years and why should they throw it out the window? Why cause a massive concern amongst IFCE for nothing? The document included that promotion and recruitment on existing fleets would seize. It also stated that they wanted the new fleet to look as attractive as possible to encourage secondment and transfers. As it is today, they don't want any of us on their new fleet because they don't want it to be contaminated. This is the sort of management we are dealing with and their actual view of us. Charming, hey? I have around 30 years left until retirement should I retire at the age of 65. Mixed Fleet will grow accordingly to natural wastage from existing fleets according to BA. That should be interesting to see.

Tiramisu

Should you ever again quote what I have said in the future, please do it correctly. I said that we want some sort of control of Mixed Fleet. Surely it should be a concern of yours that you want to make sure that aircraft and destinations are transferred fairly, especially as your pay deal is only for three years. If most lucrative destinations have been transferred by then you can be rest assured that your future pay deal will be a lot lower.

Ranger07

BASSA are not flawless. They have made mistakes. However, as I have to choose between our management and our union, the decision is easy.

52049er

Because if we don't have any control of Mixed Fleet we are going to lose a huge amount of pay as the most lucrative destinations would go over. Unfortunately staff on the ground don't understand this. Neither do our pilots. Maybe they will understand what we are fighting for should BA ever begin registering its aircraft in Spain.

Miss M

what was the reason you went on strike for again? Every time I ask one of the "yellows" they struggle to tell me.

Let us not be in any doubt that the strike had nothing to do with stopping the New Fleet at LHR. If you refer back to the Unite The Way Forward Summary of Formal Offer Dated 10th March 2010, it states;

5. MFH- There will be a new separate mixed flying fleet for new crew, with separate terms and conditions and sole bargining rights for Unite. Alongside the introdution of this fleet British Airways has confirmed the following ongoing commitments to their current crew.

It then goes on to talk about Monthly travel payment, route access, new aircraft etc.

So for all those people who said they went on strike to stop New Fleet, you didn't. It formed part of your own Unions proposal to the company. Infact under Unites offer it would have grown more quickly as they wanted at that point to put a crew member back on theWW and EF aircraft.

I have been constantly shocked at the number of people who were prepared to go on strike without knowing what was contained in the Offer made to BA by Unite.

I left Unite in June, I will rejoin when they get their house in order, as I believe that union representation is important. Unfortunately BASSA are not representing their members interests. If I had gone on strike I would be very angry that 4 months since the end of the last strike an agreement seems no closer!

Erm, yes we do, Miss M, and that is why many of us were perplexed when BASSA arbitrarily rejected the idea of hourly pay many years ago. It would have "evened out the bumps" caused by high earning trips and probably improved the sickness record for certain destinations to boot. Of course it would also have meant that the cosy arrangements between certain "senior" union reps and the scheduling team would have been terminated, and so was rejected out of hand.

So you now find your finances heavily dependent on going to destinations you have no contractual right to serve, and have accelerated the employment of CC who are way cheaper than you.

I think I understand.

Miss M
Pilots won't be worried if BA aircraft are registered in Spain, France, Italy or wherever. As I'm sure you know, under JAR, (and EASA from 2012). a pilot licenced to fly an aircraft in the UK can fly one registered in any other european country.

Despite the desperate hopes from some on CF (XX still?) there will be no cruise pilots, no Mixed fleet for pilots etc, those being recruited for next year will enjoy exactly the same Ts and Cs and Bidline benefits that current pilots enjoy.

That's what happens when a union engages with the company.

The Flying Nunn

Do you really have to ask this question again? I was asked it only a couple of days ago. Why did I go on strike? Because of imposition! Not due to the practical fact that crewing levels were changed but because they were changed without any negotiation.

Fly73

BA will go ahead with Mixed Fleet whether we like it or not. BASSA have included it in their proposals because they understand there's no stopping. What BASSA can and have been trying to do is to negotiate so that WE receive protection from Mixed Fleet.

BA have never said they don't want Mixed Fleet contaminated, that comes from the mouths of others. I know of quite a few that have chosen to go to Mixed Fleet and some have taken pay cuts to go over. I personally would not want to go over but no one is making me.

BA has said anyone can move but they have to go over on the terms and conditions of Mixed Fleet and they want those people to want to be there. They have said, time and time again, that no one will be forced to go over. You have just swallowed all the scare mongering of Bassa.

No one is happy with the development of mixed fleet and and I do feel the starting salary is too low. However it is Bassa's refusal to negotiate that has made it all worse. It has got nothing to do with the huge number of us that could see you were waisting your time striking with someone like Willie Walsh in charge. It is a complete fallacy that we went to work to keep our staff travel, or were happy for others to strike for us or we did not want to lose pay. The reason that the vast majority of us worked was because we did not agree that striking was the way to get a settlement and we have been proved right.

Miss M

Are you completely delusional, totally brain washed by your dysfunctional union, that now decides to even forsake its members playing the "X" game on their website?

When are misguided crew like yourself going to wake up and see that you are being led blindly under false promises like "oh don’t worry we will get you your staff travel back (yeah right dream on!) Rhetoric, and understand that the company you work for presently has/is moving on and YOU are being left behind!
Time to grow up and face up!

oh and while you are at it, just think to yourself "WHY, did I go on strike!"
worth pausing for a moment wouldnt you say!:ugh:

Midman

It doesn't mean BA pilots would crew those aircraft registered in Spain.

Betty Girl

In such case, why are they bringing in instructors from the outside? Getting Mixed Fleet if you have previously worked for EF and WW fleets is very difficult. Ask our ex-temporary crew who backed BA through the strikes. Many of them have been declined employment on the new fleet. That's what you get for supporting BA.

Of course nobody will be forced over to Mixed Fleet because they don't want any legacy crew on it. They don't want crew to be talking about 'the good old days' on EF and WW fleets. Mixed Fleet is a new era and something out of the ordinary. They even get to wear the uniform hat. They are that special you see!

Report Call Sign

We will get ST back sooner or later. BASSA will not accept an agreement which does not include full (without any sanctions) return of it. BA might be moving on without us, including everyone who crossed the picket line or didn't sign the individual offer offered this summer. That would be around 10.000 crew members in total. It's certainly a high number to be moving on without... But, they are too busy focusing on Mixed Fleet and uniform standard issues as will be screened during SEP. One could wonder why they have all of the sudden come up with that idea.

I don't regret for going on strike. I will do it again should we vote for it. And, I know exactly WHY I went on strike.

Well good for you, but do you think your 'strike' will be of any significance with additional VCC's and new recruits?

Staff travel returned? Why would you be under that illusion? Willie wont back down, neither would many of us wish for him to do so.

This complete lack of understanding of UK Employment Law by BASSA and its reps explains why we are in this mess.

Under UK employment Law, consultation is all BA have to do with regard to MF, crew complements and anything else other than pay, pensions and leave. BASSA SHOULD know this, and SHOULD have consulted as best they can. They SHOULD have agreed the crew complements last year and in return agreed an integrated MF that would have secured all our jobs. That is what the PCCC would have done.

The Professional Cabin Crew Council is now working hard to establish itself as a viable alternative to Unite. We are now able to put members in touch with accident and injury legal protection. We are willing where possible to attend meetings with members with BA. We have a forum which demonstrates a wealth of different views from across all fleets, including Mixed Fleet. We are gathering views of our members on the forum (PCCC – Professional Cabin Crew Council) and we hope to soon be in a position to consult sensibly and practically with BA about the issues that affect all of us.

For years we have all paid HUGE amounts of money to Unite. Now, they are not even consulting with BA at all, which is what we pay them to do. They are so busy spending OUR money on yellow pens, spending OUR money on court cases to get back staff travel (which was offered anyway so the court will simply ask why they didn't take it), and spending OUR money on other needless things. Quite frankly they don't know which way is up at the moment. Will they ever recover from this? Unlikely.

It is time for change It is time for someone to start consulting with BA and the people best placed to do that on our behalf are the PCCC.

HiFlyer14
 

What makes the PCCC people the best placed?

Miss M,
You can't have it both ways.
First you say we will all be forced on to Mixed Fleet, now you say they don't want us there.

You can't have it both ways.

Basically, I don't know why a few Temps did not get the jobs, probably their sickness record, but that is just a guess, as in previous years, temps or crew on 6 months probation who have had a bad sickness record have not been taken on full time either.
I have flown with four temps who are taking the job. Having said that they were all treated badly by BA during all this disruption and all said they were just giving it a try, to see what it was going to be like.

When it comes to the hat, BA actually want all of us to wear the hat. Brands have been requesting this for a long time but were told that, in this economic climate, it was too large a cost.
It has been agreed for Mixed Fleet because they are getting less uniform than us. Only two skirts, no trousers and no knitwear.
I have however been told that to prevent people like you from making out it is because Mixed Fleet is special, to stop Mixed Fleet crew, too, from feeling singled out, also because it is something a lot of crew have said they would like and because brands wants us all to have it, BA are considering giving it to all of us, not just Mixed Fleet. So you may be wearing one soon Miss M.

With respect, that is the minimum statutory provision gained, if you have a collective recognition agreement.

"Collective bargaining" means "negotiations relating to or connected with one or more of those matters" (TULRCA 1992 s.178(1)). A different definition is used for some of the purposes of the new rules introduced on 6th June 2000 by Employment Relations Act 1999 sched.1.1. As a general rule.for purposes of these new rules "collective bargaining" refers to negotiations relating to pay, hours and holidays only unless any other matters are voluntarily agreed.

emplaw.co.uk - British Employment Law

Well, BASSA have shown a total inability to consult/negotiate, I can not imagine for one moment that the PCCC would continually hum with fingers in their ears, can you?

RadarIndent
 

WelMaybe you didn't understand my question - what makes the PCCC people, whoever they are, the best placed to negotiate with BA?

I'm not after a smart a*sed answer, I want to know what makes them the best placed.

Have they prior negotiating skills? Have they been on a course? Have they experience in negotiating at the highest level with a PLC? Fairly relevant questions which would enhance their credibility dont you think?

HiFlyer14

Don't take this the wrong way but a 'council' which remains anonymous doesn't sound too serious nor professional. As it has been set up by a couple of cabin crew members it should be interesting to know what sort of experience and relevant education or training they have. For the time being I am not going anywhere near it.

RadarIdent

Because BASSA will never put forward a proposal that does not include full return of ST. BA can't be in a dispute with us forever.

Betty Girl

It is obvious that they don't want us on Mixed Fleet. To be honest I doubt that very few legacy crew would accept it should we ever be given the offer. BA knows that very few legacy crew would accept it because it includes a new contract including lousy terms and conditions.

Don't deny that they are trying very hard to make Mixed Fleet appear special. Be Outstanding and Future Talent to name a few of their beloved and well thought through expressions and titles.

My reply was an insinuation, that the PCCC could be no worse than BASSA who have totally failed in negotiations in mammoth proportions.

Yes, we are at an early stage here, so fingers crossed that the PCCC will be a viable alternative serving both the interests of Cabin Crew and the airline, something BASSA should have done but have failed to do as of late!