If it were not for the sales folk, rev man, finance, schedules, ops cntrol etc.. all those people you seem to despise, you wouldn't have a destination, a slot, a 747 or any passengers in the first place ! You could, however have all the former and then wet lease a plane (as BA did during the strikes) - so having your own cabin crew , plane and (whispered softly) flight crew are not essential.

I seem to remember full 747s departing LHR during the strike without many cabin crew on board at all! One SCCM (not necessarily an existing cabin crew member), a handful of experienced crew and the rest VCC. Now that the VCC are experienced, we could feasibly depart LHR with no BA employed cabin crew on board.

As to the 'virtual airline', it's a great plan on paper but has anybody ever actually made it work in the real world?

Has it not occured to you (and DH, come to think of it) that maybe, just maybe, people's abscence while they do VCC training, flights or recency is covered by overtime, other colleagues filling in or them catching up on their work later?

Suspect a lot of startups begin in this fashion - get some revenue coming in and then progress to dry lease and own crew.

Precisely. 'Virtual airline' works for a small operator, but not for a major carrier where attempting to wet lease a 50 x B777 operation just ain't gonna happen.

Whilst entertaining, Miss M's arguments are simply a rehash of previously rehashed BASSA mantras. The way FORWARD has to rest with the cabin crew themselves and the best way they can help themselves is to oust the militant idiots who put their membership in this unenviable position, elect some reasonable, pragmatic reps who can use common sense and get the dispute sorted at the earliest opportunity.

Thanks to Colonel White for the last few posts; tells it as it is.
Which, I am sure caused a hissy fit :{ when a certain over inflated balloon was burst.

Tiramisu wrote

Ha ha.You and me both. Quite simply I couldn't think of a worse place. Spoke to one crew who admitted that the place was pretty full of 'trashed' crew on the day she visited. Sad.

Miss M wrote

Oh come on Miss M. You obviously dont know the history of DH 'negotiation' skills. He would have gone on for 9 years never mind 9 months. Remember Bassa have shot to pieces at the time the long range agreement in 88, part time in 93, the crew card system in 94 etc. If it would have been upto Bassa none of the above would have happened. It always particularly amuses me when the Bassa stalwarts go on about what Bassa has done for crew, when if it would have been upto them, part time would NEVER have happened. Try taking that away from 60% of crew nowadays. Also if only Bassa would have tried to be proactive you never know that longhaul might just have had some kind of preferential bid system by now. Oh but no, they have trashed that idea in the past too.

What I would like to know is, what are peoples' views on how this is all going to end? As a previous post mentioned, BA doesn't really need to do anything. They have achieved more than they could have hoped for thanks to the self-destruct approach of a dysfunctional union. They (the union) have become, as they stand, an irrelevancy, both in the eyes of BA - and to those of us who just want to come to work and enjoy our job, look after the safety and welfare of our customers and have a bit of fun with our colleagues down route. In my experience, this has been pretty much the norm on all of my trips since the 'strike', often with almost full crew turnouts (cabin and flight) enjoying sociable time out. This job, like life is all about what you make it, (just don't make it out to be something it is not!). The minority of militants are legends only in their own minds. Miss M declares she will strike for as long as it takes. To achieve what precisely? Where is there cohesion in the Unions' plans? Come to that, what ARE their plans? They really need to be communicating in a less emotive manner and concentrating on working towards an acceptable (ST notwithstanding) closure to all this; as closure there does need to be.

Dylan Thomas wrote: "Do not go gentle into that good night". But that's exactly what BASSA will do. The "legacy" crew (MissM's words, not mine) have no power now - striking was their last and only weapon, and it no longer works - and therefore all they have is occasional posturing and a bit of finger pointing, interspersed with the occasional BASSA missive that criticises without offering any alternative.

I think you'll see the old and expensive legacy crew reaching their sell by date, taking their (BA supported to the tune of 500 million quid a year) pension and slinking off to grow tomatoes.

This dispute finished when WW put his foot down and said "No More", and only a few deluded individuals that think BASSA speak the truth, and nothing else, believe otherwise. All that's left are are a few fatuous legal arguments.

To be honest, I don't know why people like MissM don't know when they're beaten. She implies that she almost can't wait to strike and go to Bedfont; heaven knows what she's going to do when it finally sinks in that the whole exercise was pointless and embarrassing, and probably won't ever happen again.

Pimms anyone?

What's the betting on Staff Travel being given back before the next ballot ?

Miss M seems to be of the opinion that apart from Waterside and the flight/cabin crew on the aircraft BA don't employ anyone else ?

At the risk of sounding hard done by Mangers (a breed that I belong to) are often regarded by the troops as being a pure overhead of little worth.

The reality is that there are aspects of my job for example that the likes of Miss M perhaps don’t even know exist let alone how to perform.

She regards Managers as not being responsible for BA being the world’s favourite airline, that’s Cabin Crew who achieved that, cabin crew that were recruited by managers, trained by managers, dressed by managers, scheduled etc etc (I could go on clearly)

It’s a team for goodness sake and please start behaving like one of it’s members.

Her (Miss M's) statement of "Sure, some managers and desk clerks at Waterside might have put a few things together..." displays a level of arrogance and ignorance in equal measure.

Staff Travel
 

I can't see ST being returned, it would be a major concession by the company and I think given the opinions on this thread we are in agreement that BA don't need do anything at the moment; BASSA appear to have been excluded from the party.

Given the Government Spending Review coming on 20th October and the expectation of 10,000s of public sector job losses I would predict that any call for strike ballot would be given short shrift by Unite - they really are going to have bigger fish to fry..... If BASSA are kicked out of Unite and decide to go it alone would BA still be able to go after Unite for damages?

In some respects, Unite might actually have to finish BASSA off themselves in order to protect the greater Union... If WW and Tony Woodley can reach an agreement I would suggest BASSA be de-recognised by BA and crew given the option of going straight into Unite Mainstream and accepting that the batle is lost, sign the new agreement (whatever that maybe) and get on with returning this airline to the top.

I disagree, I think if the LT believe that returning ST (as part of an agreed settlement) will end this dispute then it will be returned.

I'm aware that in doing so lots of 'backing BA' types will wail and gnash teeth, however you can't have it both ways. Numerous statements to the effect that it is BA's trainset and they must be allowed to manage it as they see fit apply just as much in this example. If it's in the best interest of the company and the shareholders to return ST, they will do so.

I have to agree with Spin Doctor on this one as well.

I think ST has been used as a big stick to prevent a mass 'sheeple' walkout by BASSA members 'coz BASSA said so' and made them look more carefully as to the irrational reasoning behind the action.

Now it could be used as a carrot to entice an agreement which could, potentially, be far less accomodating than those offered in the past but the 'return of ST' can be used by BASSA as a token of 'victory' however false and hollow that token may be.

Personally I don't mind in the slightest if ST is returned, I would just like to see an end to this ridiculous dispute and get on with doing what we all do best until the next round of concessions looms.

I agree. However, at the moment it seems that to be in dispute with BASSA is no real problem, there is no real threat of any IA - the current ballot while it remains active is a paper tiger. If they strike on this ballot they can be sacked as the IA is no longer protected. Another ballot is problematical as it has to be on a separate and unrelated issue, BASSA and UNITE officials have publically included ST and Disciplinary issues as part of the current dispute. They need another issue - one that motivates sufficient BASSA members to strike that the strike has teeth. So far BASSA's strikes have not had enough teeth; BA have not been forced to change their policy one iota, so far the strikes have failed. Why would a new one change that?

For BA, it is a different equation. While the dispute is on they can introduce New Fleet and other working arrangements and BASSA are powerless top stop it, they are not being consulted. BA have not even started to talk about a pay deal, except for the 1000 or so crew who have signed a deal with BA and who are not BASSA members. All the time a pay deal is not negotiated, the pay budget for CC is going down in real terms due to the effect of inflation. It may not be high at the moment but 2-3% of a multi-million budget i not to be sneezed at.

So with no real threat and the pay budget easing and other minor benefits there is little to change BA's position, Return ST? Why? - there is little benefit to BA, even if it will allow a settlement all it will do is allow the malcontents to continue to foment discord, while BASSA will claim a victory that will embolden them and reinvigorate a toothless and increasing marginalised BASSA. Where is the real upside for BA?

Juan Tugoh,

What you say make good sense when viewed from an employees perspective or from a laymans perspective. From the viewpoint of the investor however any discord within a company, no matter how small, can be seen as a negative incentment. The problem with having an open festering dispute with one part of your employee base is that no-one can predict when it might explode. By reaching agreement the company has the possibility to build in clauses preventing such idiotic, ill thought out and damaging action in the future. Such a soloution is far better when enticing prospective investors to back the company as it shows that the management team are proactive with dealing with disputes rather then allowing them to fester.

That is why, with the new aircraft orders looming, the access to South America opening up, the increase in African flights happening and the increased LH leisure market from LGW, I think the company will want this dispute settled on their terms and not BASSA's. If that means the return of ST as a 'gesture' then so be it.

One could equally well argue that with the status quo, with most of the BASSA reps removed or emasculated, and legacy crew steadily rolling out of the company at the normal rate of attrition, that the company need do nothing; the festering sore will heal itself, and the dead skin covering it will simply blow away in the wind.

Maybe BA should put the return of staff travel to a vote!

Let the staff decide. :)

Personally I thought the last offer of a return with zero seniority was satisfactory.

Anybody can see that after a year or so it could be negotiated back to their original dates.

But the snag there is that word again; negotiation.

Not Bassa's strong point.

Wirbelsturm,

what you say makes sense, and I agreed with the initial quote that if it is in the best interests of the company and shareholders St will be returned. I just think it it a complex issue.

The most important part, as I see it, is that this dispute has now gone on so long that it is a MUST for the company not to be in such a situation again. I feel that BA believe they must not give BASSA a victory that would allow them to lick their wounds and rebuild the union as it was prior to this dispute. For BA, it is imperative that the basic relationship that they have with BASSA is redefined - BA to manage their business, BASSA to act as a negotiating body for the CC community.

It would be a false economy to settle this dispute now without dealing with the underlying flaw in the relationship. If they were to do this, then doubtless there will be another toxic dispute in a couple of years and another one a few years after that - sadly a show down with BASSA as a loser is necessary for the long term and for the future commercial sucess of BA. No Blue Chip company can afford a dinosaur union exercising such influence over its commercial operation. BA need to divest themselves of the reputation of having a strike every summer.

The position BA and BASSA are in now is less than ideal but the longer it continues the less it hurts BA - Premium loads are up, the share price is up and the threat of further IA does not seem to be worrying the frequent flyers overly. This dispute needs to be settled but not at any cost. As you say I am not particularly bothered about ST itself, it is more about what it represents in this dispute and the way it has been used as a political football that defines it's relative import.

Not only ignorance but a total inability to hear another point of view or to accept facts that don't concur with previous ideas.

She hasn't ever heard any point of view or fact that she doesn't agree with.

Which is why, if I was Willie, I wouldn't give an inch , ever, until Bassa totally cave, or until the crew themselves change Bassa's strategy.

I'm afraid that BASSA will never simply 'go away'. The thugs at Unite will never allow it, they have a hook into a major FTSE 100 company and they are not going to allow that to be lost any time soon.

If BA attempted to destroy BASSA then Unite would be all over the company like a rash. The delights of the Socialist Worker party camping on the doors of Waterside and T5 is not one that the company wishes.

Although the PCCC could be a credible alternative they have yet to amass the required numbers for official recognition and they have also not been exposed to the negotiation experience with the company.

Even with 4000 militant members BASSA would still be a force to reckon with sadly and therefore they need to be legally hamstrung and tied up to prevent this sort of scenario in the future. BA could hold the sword of Damocles over them with respect to the costs involved over the past two years and a threat to reclaim if they caused more trouble. It MUST be in writing though!

To re-iterate, BA CANNOT destroy BASSA nor, IMHO, would they or have they ever wanted to. That was pure BASSA fantasy. BA will want to remove the old school, historic, miltant tendancies of the Union and ensure that clauses are placed into agreements/contracts to prevent future damage due to ingrowing toenails, days off for Henley, Wimbledon etc. etc. etc.

Give the power to decide what is acceptable hours for all crew based on a singular industrial hours framework to the Captain and lets all get back to work.

GearUp CheerUp

Interesting. Who's paying overtime pay?

Juan Tripp

Not a surprise as you, and Tiramisu, would be too busy backing BA for nothing in return. Every single person who crossed the picket has done nothing but to prolong our dispute and step up the creation of Mixed Fleet. Don't think for a second that you have done yourself a favour.

Let's believe BA's figures for a second. They claim that some 4.900 crew members have lost ST. Around 6.000 would have crossed the picket line and 1.000 of them signed (and sold themselves down the river) the individual offer. What exactly have the remaining 5.000 crew members gained from crossing the picket line? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

ChicoG

I will never feel embarrased over my actions or claim that they were pointless. I still believe going on strike was the right decision and I won't hestitate a second to go on another strike should we vote for it.

We still have power. Even if we vote for another strike it will affect the business regardless of BA promising to operate a full 100% longhaul schedule. What will our customers be getting? They will be getting to their destinations but receiving a substandard and poor service from VCC which is not what many are expecting.

Snas

A team? Hardly. I'm finding it very difficult to be saying that BA employees who either crossed the picket line or trained to break our strike are my colleagues. I find their behaviour to be despicable.

Well done Willie Walsh. You have really succeeded in dividing this company.

Yes well, you rather make my point. Your arrogant and elitist view of CC’s self importance and sense of entitlement doesn’t appear to me to have been created solely from this particular dispute but has always been there.

Fortunately however I happen to know that your view isn’t shared by all your cabin crew colleagues, so unlike you, it would seem, I have some hope for the future of the team.

You may well be correct in stating that the dispute has been prolonged by the crew that crossed the picket lines - but not in the sense that BA would have caved in to BASSA's demands. As BASSA's own QC stated in court (and therefore made an uncontestable option for BA) BA can always vary your contracts by issuing a 90 notice of severance.

At the time the ballot was run and indeed for the whole summer BA were in dire economic straits and required structural changes. BASSA were quite determined to have no changes (something they have completely failed to achieve) hence the ballot. A successful strike is highly likely to have triggered a more robust response from BA. Rather than berating people for crossing the picket line line, you should be thanking them for you having a job on your current salary.

Either way, if and maybe are irrelevant, people did cross the picket lines and the strike failed. BASSA need to move on and deal with the reality of a failed strike and stop wishing things were different.

Wow. If MissM is typical of the BASSA die hards, how on earth can any deal be struck?
Such elitist attitudes, every one else is wrong, no other staff member in BA is as pertinent to the operation etc etc.
I'm stunned at these outlandish attitudes.
Are you ever going to offer this airline anything MissM?

.
Quite a lot actually.
1. Staff Travel
2. They haven't lost money and got themselves in financial difficulties.
3. Job satisfaction... they are happy at work.
Lastly,they are not the ones that look miserable in CRC moping around. A Captain asked me recently about how I could differentiate the strikers from those who came to work. My reply was they are ones who don't smile and look miserable all the time feeling sorry for themselves.

I forgot to add,

4. Kept the people who pay our wages (the pax) happy to continue to fly BA
5. Helped our employers overcome a ridiculous, disproportionate strike which threatened our employers future, thus safeguarding our jobs and pensions

Tiramisu, you beat me to it I was just composing a similar message.

Miss M - your views are quite staggering. Could you not conceive for a moment that your beloved union and reps have let you down badly? That they have allowed their ego's to prevent them from getting a future for their members? They may have lost their jobs but they could much better afford to than most of their members thanks to Unite subs paying off their mortgages. Some of them only became reps because they didn't like flying much and wanted more time on the ground to hang out at St Mary's stadium. Turn some of your anger to the people who have let you down badly, we owe you nothing, they do!

Had a great trip today with just such one of these people (notorious according to the rest of the crew). From the arrival in the briefing room dripping in yellow pens, xxxx tags, bassa lanyard, etc. right up to the end of the day he was a total misery. Of course, we did have a little fun at his expense, engaging him in reluctant conversations and teasing him about his pens. Result four happy CC and one v. unhappy! Who lost?
Edited to add, seems some of you who are new to the forum think I am implying that we bullied this crew member. Not at all, we were lovelyto him! It is part of all our jobs to engage with the team we are working with and, if as a crew member it makes you unhappy to talk to your crew, then clearly it is not the right job for you. His unhappiness came from within him not from his crew.

Hiroo Onoda

I'm once again reminded of this. The rest of the world knows it's over. The die yards look like they will continue taking pot shots at the locals and stealing the occasional chicken though. The question is will the commanding officer leave his seasonal veg to come and tell them it's over?

Too late. BASSA is finished. They have no more ammunition. Their leadership have lied to their troops, they risked all with the last set of strikes and lost. So now they pay the price. I think it would be fair to give staff travel back to the strikers because they are for the most part unwitting victims of the BASSA leadership but it's not going to happen. There's nothing in it for BA. I think they would see it as showing weakness which would only encourage BASSA.
BA has been very careful not to do anything to upset other Unite groups as that could be dangerous so they will continue to ignore BASSA which is fine by most other Unite members.

Hi Ottergirl,
There's only one way to manage all the yellow that does not comply with uniform standards. I request politely, to have it removed. Easy.;)
There's going to be a huge focus on Uniform Standards soon with the start up of Mixed Fleet in November. BA want to make sure that we all look smart so therefore no 'Vote Yes Strike' Tags and anything that sends the wrong message to our customers. About time too.

Wading in
 

I'd like to point out that many VCC normally work in the terminals, the lounges and call centres along with other customer touch points, and are therefore perfectly qualified to look after our customers on board the aircraft, just as they do every other day of the week in their normal jobs.

Other VCC are managers from all levels of the business who are benefitting from the experience by being able to go "back to the floor" and learn a great deal about the role.

Then of course you have a large number of cabin crew who have changed careers but who were able to go back to Cranebank on reduced length courses due to their recent flying experience - for these people it's like riding a bicycle.

What the VCC and Backing BA campaigns have done is to unite more and more people at BA who believe we have a bright future. People from all walks of life and jobs at BA have been thrown together in all sorts of activities, and many agree that it feels more and more like one big team now, like never before. VCC has also earned the cabin crew themselves a huge amount of respect and admiration, as more and more people understand fully the lifestyle, the job, and all of the pressure it entails.

So no, I don't think our customers' on board experience will suffer in any way other than, perhaps, the pace of the service if the crew are working to minimum complements.

GG

And probably the reason why BA are not now, the middle eastern airlines have a fantastic crew attitude that BA could learn from. I think Mixed fleet may have a few teething problems, but give it a few months, it could give BA back its consistent brand and customer service that is sometimes lacking - we all want BA to do well don't we ?

Wiberlsturm,
Whilst the PCCC may not have the required numbers for official recognition as yet, they are not far behind and as previously mentioned, they are gaining momentum.
Who's to say that the PCCC don't have the required skills to negotiate with the company anyway? From what I have seen, the PCCC members are more responsible, intelligent and forward thinking exploring ideas for a way forward out of this mess on our behalves.
What have BASSA's negotiating experience achieved with the company to date?

Loss of Pay and Staff Travel for strikers.
Loss of New Share Scheme and Extra Free Ticket.
Loss of Monthly Travel Payment.
Tarnished the reputation of an iconic brand and it's cabin crew.
They have expedited Mixed Fleet and the list goes on...

Juan Tough

Should I be thanking BA for having a job on my current salary? Do you think my salary has been given to me from BA as a gesture of generosity or because of strong union representation?

Ranger07

I would be willing to offer a lot to BA but only if they were interested and serious to negotiate seriously. They could remove another crew member if they wanted to but it would have to be negotiated. Not imposed.

Tiramisu

What about Mixed Fleet? Will they be protected from it? No, they won't. It was a bad decision to cross the picket line. BASSA have not expedited Mixed Fleet. Who did? Every single one who crossed the picket line including yourself. Be proud of yourselves. In my opinion, everyone who crossed the picket line should be offered a new contract on Mixed Fleet.

Regarding the PCCC I don't believe you have the appropiate negotiating skills. It would probably be suitable for anyone who crossed the picket line but not everyone else who went on strike because we want to protect our future careers and reach a watertight agreement. Undoubtedly PCCC would have soled all of us down the river.

GayGourmet

It's different to work onboard. From what I have experienced from having worked with VCC they do give a substandard service and have absolutely no idea what they are doing. I gather they must be rather excited over getting the opportunity to work as cabin crew and wearing wings on their jackets as they probably never would have passed the ordinary selection process under normal circumstances.

Miss M. You say VCC aren't up to the standard of Legacy crew. This may be true of some. But can you explain, why on the SLF site and Flyertalk our passengers are only too pleased and want to fly with BA during the strike periods, finding the experience much better than the norm. Not in sinc with your view of VCC capability at all.

Funny that it really has not been an issue in the past but now we are going to be assessed on uniform standards during SEP. Do you honestly think they are wanting to make sure that we all look smart? Surely it couldn't have anything to do with that BA wanting to find every possible reason to suspend legacy crew over silly uniform issues?

MissM,

Congratulations on your continued defence of BASSA. It makes entertaining reading and helps the rest of us see how difficult it must be for IFCE to try and manage some of you. However, you do yourself no favours by being blind to published facts. Please read and comprehend the ruling against BASSA regarding the imposition - BASSA did not negotiate, so BA had no reasonable option but to impose the changes. Why are you unable to recognise this?

Well that's certainly interesting from someone that seems to have inordinate pride in their skills such that they are the only staff in BA that matter. The name there is Juan Tugoh not Juan Tough, it is a simple thing, a matter of courtesy to get someone's name right - but as the best crew in the world you should already know that.

You are being, I suspect, deliberately obtuse. I did not say that you should be grateful to BA for your salary but I did point out to you that "BASSA need to move on and deal with the reality of a failed strike and stop wishing things were different." It does not matter what might have happened it matters what did happen and how BASSA intends to move forward, an analogy is that if I got the numbers for the lottery last week I would be a millionaire - but I am not and wishes will not pay the mortgage.