I would also like to congratulate BG for his/her consitantly measured posts.

And I hate to break it to you Dunc, but it's not the same pay deal as the pilots you hate so much.

Pilots got 4% and a share deal. You got 2.9% and no shares.

Thanks Flow Wedge,

That's very kind of you and I am a girl, well a bit too old to be called a girl actually!! but female!

So in fact, a WORSE deal than the one originally offered which included a share reward!:ugh: Yet again, great work BASSA! Ooh, and remind me again what pay deal the Ground staff managed to negotiate without all this drama?


And for DH
Most of us would prefer full-time tights!:ooh: Did the media course not include proof reading?

In reply to A V Flyer.

I have always thought WW has been a good CEO and he has served BA well in how he has got our costs down etc.

However I and many others feel that this dispute could have been ended many months ago, if a different style of CEO was in office back then.

This offer is almost identical to the one that many of us signed and had staff travel been restored as part of the last offer, we may have had an end many months ago.

During the first year of this dispute WW and Bassa have had personality clashes and from what I have heard WW refused to even speak with Bassa reps and discussions with reps had to take place through Unite officials because WW refused to sit in the same room as them.

More recently almost exactly the same offer has been accepted by Bassa and it includes big changes to the way they and BA do business and this has been achieved because both sides have amended the way they do business and talks have included reps that understand how our agreements work.

WW was and still is a good leader but his confrontational style, in my opinion, has in fact prolonged this dispute and made it harder for a solution to be found. That's my opinion and it does not mean that I cannot see that he was a good CEO in the sense that he has guided BA through a lot of cost cutting to get us through a bad recession and for that I applaud him but his hard ball stance has not been good and KW has ended up with a good outcome for BA which I feel could have been achieved last time had Bassa been included in the talks like this time.

Of course I hold BASSA responsible mostly and this is because a strike was totally unnecessary in the first place but WW stance and hard ball attitude actually has made the whole affair worse, in my humble opinion.

As hardly any of the PCCC are current members of Unite, I very much doubt that any of us could stand for election! There are some very good Bassa and Amicus reps out there particularly many of the line reps, they have just been badly led by DH and the rest of the committee, so hopefully the future will be bright and a new relationship will evolve between Unite and BA, one that moves our airline forward.

Point of order Betty Girl,I realise that this is a rumour network , however I can categorically say this is/was not the case.

PM me if you want further details

Unbiased reporting?
 

IAG investors are the winners after BA's cabin crew dispute - Telegraph

See what you think

Betty Girl

I understand your feelings regarding the dispute ending sooner if WW had not been in charge. WW was brought in by the board to do a job and I think he has well and truly carried out that job.

He had to get our costs down, but some of that ‘costs problem’ related directly to the attitude of employees within BA. The power of unions to bring the airline to a halt is a very unfortunate hangover from the days of being a nationalised industry. In all the years that I have been in BA bassa have been militant bully-boys who have threatened IA if they did not get their way. They have been completely unwilling to move with the times and look where it has now brought them.

WW has now managed to push through new working agreements with ALL groups at BA. Even a few years ago this would have been totally unthinkable. All workgroups, except one, were willing to look at the problems and move with the times. The one group that were completely unwilling to engage have at last been ‘put in their place’ and if the exact wording of the agreement is fulfilled “there will be a single cabin crew Unite branch’ they may have also signed their own demise.

WW moved on to be CEO of the group and KW took over. He may well be a less abrasive character than WW, but he was WWs right-hand man then and he is still his right-hand man on a different level now. A better analogy is the ‘good cop, bad cop’ approach. WW softened bassa up, for KW to come in and get a confession!!!

In financial terms the company have achieved more than they could have imagined: sensible crew complements, the cost saving of MF (which only came in after the initial strike action), putting bassa ‘in their place’ while still having collective bargaining via Untie, a big financial saving in the new facilities agreement and a disruption agreement that is now fit for purpose. The huge number of ‘pointless’ meetings will now be hugely reduced and should hopefully result in better and more fruitful outcomes.

On the more ‘human’ side of the dispute BA now have management control over cabin crew at last – one of the main issues all along! bassa reps will not now be able to abuse their powers / the system by picking up all the plum trips. Since the unhealthy influence of bassa has now reduced I am hoping for a more streamlined operational environment as well. The number of times that bassa have had an ‘unhealthy influence’ over CC management will hopefully reduce and we will not be stuck with situations such as in-flight diversions due duty hours or lengthy delays due to missing cabin crew.

I suspect that the hatred and anger that has been deliberately stirred up will last for quite a while. I am at a loss to explain the lies, hatred etc etc that has come from a certain hateful ‘sacked’ individual and I am at an even bigger loss to understand how one such vile individual has been allowed to lead a decent bunch of people to the edge of a precipice.

Let’s hope that the voices of decent individuals who want to do a good job will now be heard and that the healing process can begin.

Will Unite represent MF..just out of interest??:ok:

Sporran,

I agree with what you say, I was merely saying that it could have been solved easily last time, except that WW was making a point of punishing the strikers with Staff Travel removal.

I said at the time that most crew would accept the offer but that the feeling of being punished and having their staff travel removed plus the feeling of unfairness over some of the dismissals were both things preventing a deal.

As this deal is basically the same, I feel I was right and had WW got a slightly less abrasive personality, I feel this would have ended earlier, with all that BA have now.

Just my own opinion and I am not saying that some of this was not nessasary just that it could have easily ended earlier.

GofE,
Yes part of the deal was to give Unite the right to represent M/F.

You will have your own reps and you wont have to join but you can if you want.

Thanks Betty....I thought that would have been discussed, but couldn't find it in anywhere. I am really worrying financially about the future to be honest :(:uhoh: Love the job, love the people:)

I don't think so BG, BASSA had a history of trying to railroad BA, there was going to be no amicable settlement to this one. The lines needed to be redrawn, there is no place anymore for unions that put their own agenda ahead of the survival of the company. As was said earlier, WW played his part very well and backed BASSA into a very tight corner. KW then provided a way out, providing the original basic BA objectives were met. WW didn't get to head up IAG by accident, he is extremely good at what he does. If you look at BA's wishlist and BASSA's wishlist, the victor is clear.

You really don't get it do you, you (EX!!!)BASSA lot
Simply, you've lost!
i cant really put it to you in a more simple way.....
Here is the reason why, you are in NO better position than you were PRIOR to the 22 days of strikes and LOSS OF MONEY, oh and loss of staff Travel, which you were all saying you didn't really care about, yeah right
what was it, you can stick ya ID90s up ya *****......oh please give me a break!

22 days of IA, for ummm imposition, what has happened? its NOT been reversed, so thats a lose
Then it was Mixed Fleet, ummmm its still there, Funny that
ANOTHER LOSS!
Then came along the individual agreement for NON union members, oh thats not fair, how come we haven't got that....answer....because YOUR union never put it to you to vote on, thats why
however what is now extremely wired is that is exactly what Lenny and DH and all the reps are now saying is the best thing since sliced bread, and recommending a fantastic deal. Oh give me a break, you guyz have got a big fat "0" and nothing more
Just think what you have now that you DIDNT have prior strike
and now think what you COULD of had
A win?, far from it
the biggest LOSS i think any of us will ever see, more of a loss that we had with open skyes, and to top it all off, BASSA is NO MORE, kaput, finito, gone,
anyway, get that pen, you have a box to tick!!!

report call sign. I am not in BASSA.

It is a sad day when someone can't have an opinion about how they personally feel about someone and how in their opinion he aggravated things.

I know he got what he wanted but my point is that this was all in the agreement that I signed and it was his spiteful nature over sackings and staff travel that has actually prolonged this.

You obviously don't post here very often otherwise you would not be having a go at me because I have been against BASSA and the strike from the beginning.

If you want to have pops at people you are on the wrong site, go back to CC.com!

I just made a simple comment two pages ago and have been got at ever since.

My opinion of WW is held by the majority of cabin crew and that includes most of those that did not strike. Also many pilots feel he aggravated the situation and made matters worse at the end. We have got the same deal as I signed more or less but staff travel will be returned and the IA cases reviewed. They could have agreed that months ago!

KW has personally come to the CRC to speak to crew and asked our opinions, something that WW never did. He HAS got the best deal ever for BA but done it in a different way and I think it is fine for me to say so without being attacked unnecessarily..

Happy Xmas, War Is Over.

To betty girl
 

Betty Girl

please don't think my post was aimed at you
it was not at all
i didn't even have you in mind when posting it
it is aimed at BASSA members ONLY
nothing to do with you
sorry if you thought it was
Take care

Is it over now? So that my partner and myself can move on?
Too many people have been affected by this and both BA and BASSA should be ashamed of themselves for having drawn it out so long.

totally agree

DH is delusional! What is it with the bloke that he just cannot bear the truth? Strike-supporters need to read the agreement, or KW's message - word of mouth from DH is not a reliable source.

Staff Travel is not yet back in it's entirety - Unite have to prove that the working relationship is improved, and the agreement implemented before KW will then recommend to the Board that Staff Travel is returned in full.

The name of VCCs will be changed, thats all! They will still be there in a slightly different format. "A new company wide programme will be launched in all customer contact and customer support areas. The new programme will replace the current arrangements for voluntary cabin crew. The programme will also give cabin crew and other colleagues the chance to experience working in other areas across the business." Ready to be rolled out again when strikes are threatened? You bet!

Arbitration will not take place for all discips and sackings - only those that are not yet completed. For example, DH's case is over, finito! He will not be allowed another hearing. Simple!

The union will not be "back as before". Detail is not yet clear but KW has categorically stated that BA will only deal with one set of union people. I am willing to bet that is at the Unite level, not BASSA.

Pay deal same as the pilot's? Since when? The pilots got 4% and a share deal - how is that the same as noticeably less than 4% and no share deal.

Good grief! DH still cannot see past his twisted vision of the world! :ugh:

Sorry Report call sign I thought it was directed at me.

gcal.

I agree totally and that was my point really that both sides have been as bad as each other and many of us were just pawns in the middle. Even though i have totally disagreed with the strike it has been a very hard experience for me knowing that my employer does not value me anymore and that is how this has made many of us feel even if we understand the rational of it all.

I have found the whole thing very hard and I think the reason I posted on here so much has been because it has been an outlet for my feelings; it has been hard at work because it has been so emotive it was actually not something that we could all easily discuss together.



Hopefully it will all calm down now.

Actually Abbey, this is what it says about dismissals.

Any employees dismissed for dispute related reasons, and whose case has not been heard by an Employment Tribunal, may elect to have their case heard through the ACAS arbitration scheme. The result will be binding on both parties. ACAS will also carry out a review of other dispute related disciplinary cases.

So as I read it they are going to look at all cases but those that have not yet gone to an Employment Tribunal can have the actual case heard by ACAS and that will have a binding result. Many have been sacked already and have not yet taken their case to tribunal so this will now be done by ACAS, but it finishes by saying ACAS will also carry out a review of other dispute related disciplinary cases.

But I totally agree that DH aka Walter Mity is putting a spin on it all!!

3 people sacked have been to an industrial tribunal:(

Has he read the agreement or just lost the plot. ;)

The really sad thing about DH and BASSA is they don't realise or have the intelligence that they have been played. Its like the best "hustle" episode ever done.

Never mind I'm happy:ok:;)

Firstly well said everyone on here tonight for some of the best posts I've read for ages. Top marks though to Sporran - that summed it all up perfectly.

BG. I know we haven't actually met at work but I do feel I know you from all the wonderful posts you put on here. However I have disagree with you regarding WW. I wrote to KW a few weeks ago and in his reply he openly mentioned that the main reason this dispute happened was because of the past failures of senior BA management. I agree.

Because of this failure over the last 20-30 years, it was going to take something of gargantuan proportions to get to where we are today. But it has happened and that's down mainly to WW. now let's get one thing straight here. I'm no friend of WW BUT he and probably Bill Francis have had to take some awful stuff thrown at them in the last two years. As has been said, TW and WW did the same deal as now back in October last year, but tomato boy wouldn't put it to HIS members. As I've mentioned before here, whoever has briefed WW throughout this dispute knows the whole history of Bassa. And that's why WW didn't give back ST in full last Oct. I know Mr. Holley enough to know that had he got ST back in full, he would have seen that as a weakness on BAs part, and he would have then moved onto the next thing. Give him an inch at your peril. Remember the famous announcement of an upcoming strike at 1000 on 10/10/10. ( or xxxx in bassa talk) That was so typical DH. So BG, I fully respect your viewpoint but in this case I disagree simply because I know what Holley is capable of ( hi dunc by the way xx ). it's not your fault in ANY way but you have to know DH to realise what he is capable of.

Sporron got it spot on with the good cop/ bad cop analogy regarding WW and KW. I said the same myself yesterday in fact.

Finally at work today I had the first of many no doubt, strikers giving me the 'winning look'. All I can say is that I'm actually ashamed and embarrassed that these so called colleagues are so naive and stupid IMO.

Since BASSA are claiming this as a victory, I wonder if the statement is wrong or if BASSA's interpretation is wrong?

I think BASSA are reading this as, "Any employees dismissed for dispute related reasons, and THOSE whose case has not been heard etc". Inserting that one word means arbitration applies to those already fired and those who are awaiting 'trial'. Remove that word and you get rid of the ones already fired and it is only the ones awaiting 'trial' that get the ACAS deal. It's pretty clear in the original text but I wonder if this is what it meant to say or if BASSA are correct.

Probably more deliberate misdirection from Duncan which 'bigs up' one part of the deal in BASSA's favour.

PS: Since Duncan was only elected with a show of hands to remain in office until this problem was sorted out, does it now mean he is out of a job with BASSA? He's no longer employed by BA and, even if he was, it would require a proper vote of all BASSA members for him to remain (as opposed to a show of hands from the party faithful); so I think that means it might be 'goodbye' but can anyone confirm/deny this?

I disagree! BA have maintained their dignity and integrity, and moral high ground, throughout.
BA have not engaged in personal attacks once.
They have had to play it by the book in accordance with the law and have been honest and loyal to their staff and shareholders.
Willie had to undo decades of tangled industrial relationships in one go. He did it!
The militants have been out of control, with vilriolic and violent attacks, bullying and intimidation, lies and deliberately malicious and dangerous behaviour.

The pawns............................
Too many crew just went along for the ride!
Didn't find out the facts, or challenge the infomation they were given.
Weak minded lemmings who allowed DH and others to lead them into such a pathetic and losing situation.
Credit though to those crew who did stand up for themselves, who took the time to find out the truth, to weigh the arguments, risked being ostracised or outcast.

Now crew must challenge the Unite / Bassa / CC89 constitution and operation.
Follow the money is always a good start.

If BASSA are spinning that they've won and it's an honourable settlement that Crew should vote through, then fine. I'm sure the rest of us can live with what's been agreed. However BA are well known for being extremely creative with their interpretation of agreements (ask any BALPA member) so time will tell.
ST e.g. won't be returned until new relationships are in force, which could well be in 2013 , which was exactly what WW and TW shook hands on.

Which is pretty much the crux Walsh himself said to me over a year ago! Walsh didn't withhold staff travel to be bloody-minded. He did it because he knew returning it wouldn't shorten the dispute.

Many thousands of posts ago, in a thread long closed, someone wiser than I posted a quotation along the lines of "never interrupt your enemy when he is in the process of making a mistake!"

It seems the time for pointing out that actually BASSA hasn't won, that the deal on the table is the same one re-spun, may not be be now. Let them vote for it, let the ink dry so that the whole thing can be put to bed and then point out that they have made a monumental error. Please don't discourage the voters yet!

Its nothing like the same deal.

The PVEG is now contractual and permanent.

Route distribution will be fair and carried out by an independent party to ensure fairness using the Carmen banding system. BA have admitted that so far this has not been the case as all current L/H routes except 1 have been long range. Therefore BA have agreed to change this within 6 months on the advice of the independent.

BA have agreed to comply with all ACAS recommendations ( even if that includes reinstatement )

Moo

So after all this time, with 22 days of strike action, which was about imposition (so people tell me) you now have something contractual on some of your allowances, (or a baseline average, try explaining that one) please tell me you don't view that as a victory?

Remember NF is here to stay! remember the new crew complements are here to stay! (thats what you went on strike for)Your disruption agreement is now a "tell" not "ask", no more double nights after a diversion. Part of your pay rise this year and next based upon further productivity changes.

please show me where in the settlement document it specifically says this.

I can only find reference to what if ACAS find that BA were correct it sacking them in the first place, will that make you happy?

Moo,
I will agree that those reassurances are good (although the agreement I signed did have reassurances that there would be independent reviews). It was always permanent, people were wrongly saying it was only for two years but that just referred to the pay deal but Bassa chose to spin it as being bad and not permanent!.

All the routes being long range bar one is not true
Nairobi, Atlanta and Luanda are not long rang. That's three.

I do agree that it was being done wrongly and the balance was not right.

It was like they were saying one good, one not so good, one good, one not so good but they were forgetting that, not so good trips outnumber good trips by 4:1 at least. So for it to have been fair it should have been, one good trip, three not so good.

However I don't think BA were counting in their figures the new routes, as they were not part of the worldwide trips in the first place!, so if you remove Haneda and San Diego it was not that unfair. You could hardly say that Worldwide crew were unhappy with losing Denver and Las Vegas either!.

Anyway it is good that you are now happy and hopefully we can all move on now.

As for BA agreeing that it was unfair, I don't think so, my manager told me that BF went into great detail in their meeting on Thursday morning saying he thought routes were being transferred fairly!! But at least, now that you have come to an agreement, these independent people can actually start monitoring it all, finally!

As ottergirl says it's time to stop this goading and lets get on and enjoy the end of this mess. In a way it is a good outcome if both sides feel they have won. We should all be happy!!!

Who cares who is claiming victory? The time for point scoring is past - onwards and upawards (literally!) :ok:

Reassurances are no good if they are broken. Nobody in Business would take a reassurance only something in writing that is contractually binding .

BA has proved that " agreements " are sometimes not upheld by them.

And ok admitted that some of the routes I quoted are not Box trips but they are Destination trips.

The managers that accepted the unfairness to me was a chat with 4 managers at their desk in the CRC.

Finally people who go on about " It's all about the removal of 1 off the A/C " are ignorant to the facts.

We went on strike due to imposition ( not the reduced crew comps ) and as this was the only thing that had been imposed this was the only thing we could cite.

But moving forward I am happy with the agreement.

Good Moo,

I am very happy that you are happy.

Lets hope that BA can grow from strength to strength and we can all enjoy our jobs again.

Take care.

Imposition, not Imposition
 

"We went on strike due to imposition ( not the reduced crew comps ) and as this was the only thing that had been imposed this was the only thing we could cite". :confused:


Thanks for your explanation of the root cause of the strike. :mad:

What a sensitive bunch you are! Just one instance of Imposition makes you rant and rave for 2 years whilst costing yourselves, your customers and your long suffering employers a fortune and terrorising your more balanced work mates.

I think any remaining Bassamentalists ought to wear a xxxx lanyard so that ordinary people can tiptoe around them so's not to upset them. :=

Congratulations and thanks to all the stable cabin crew and other BA staff that have kept the fleet operating. :D

Betty Girl, it has been a while since I surfed the stormy waters of Pprune. We may be on the opposite side politically but I have do admire the way you have always held your own, in what has not always been the friendliest of environments.

Indeed had PCCC had more crew like you, they may have been a force to be reckoned with.

We now appear to have an offer of agreement from the Company that demands BASSA and ’89 not only operate jointly under the umbrella of Unite but merge as a truly unified negotiating body. I suspect our clinical psychologist has identified previous divisions as a flash point of our much reported ‘dysfunctionality’ (yes, I probably made that word up, Thesaurus not at hand lol).

More dysfunctionality is the negative nit picking evident both here and on the pro BASSA forums. After such a bitter prolonged dispute it is hard for some to drop the cyber armour and embrace each other.

Both sides appear to be asking who ‘won’ what and attempting to score points. Surely a Peace Treaty means our customer is the winner, as we focus our joint fight on regaining our place as a Brand to be trusted and envied.

May I suggest we stop dissecting and over analysing and commence working on how we are going to jointly repair the damage to our Brand and Communities?

It is not only Cabin Crew who will need to adapt to a new management style, Mr Williams may not be Mr Walsh but sometimes quiet authority is the most effective!

I am thrilled some of you are able to boast of having ‘high level’ meetings with IFCE, my personal lowly achievement is having Cabin Crew socialize down route, not worthy of a Nobel Peace Prize but vital baby steps in the healing process.

I must ask, are you pleased we have an opportunity to move forward and end the industrial hostilities? I ask, as many of you may be ex military and I am not getting a sense of positivity to the possibility of an honourable negotiated settlement. You may be natural warriors but BASSAMentalists are natural lovers and it is time for peace to be restored.

Some may accuse BASSA of being entrenched but revisiting Pprune, I feel some are missing the message. Mr Walsh has left the building. While Mr Williams may not be the ‘Good Cop’ stepping into his shoes, he is an Accountant with his eye on the bottom line. It is time to unify our previously divided energy and rebuild Brand Britain.

Globally, we are on a high after the Royal Wedding and we have the upcoming 2012 Olympics. As official backers for the Olympic bid, we should be capitalizing on this marketing opportunity.

Are you Backing BA or your personal agendas?

Betty Girl, rejoin BASSA or whatever our merged Union is named and change it from the inside. Your commitment and passion may prove the common ground in the much needed healing process for our Cabin Crew Community.

The postings made by Dingbaticus on this site are my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs and don’t necessarily represent my employers positions, strategies or opinions.

Great post Dingbat. And so different to your posts on the other forum. Have to agree with everything you wrote. It's time to reconcile. However, I would warn everybody of re-joining ''BASSA or whatever it'll be called'' just yet. Too many wrongs by this institution in the past. Never felt so let down by an organisation, that I helped funding over a 12 year period. Stupid donkey comes to mind. So let's just wait and see how that ''new body of true negotiations'' will perform.