MissM
Do you really believe that another strike would produce ANY positive results for any crew who participated in it?

You always state your determination to go on strike; but you don't have any clear reasons or objectives.

I honestly think that with your attitude you would be better off working elsewhere, for your own peace of mind.

Miss M wrote

Well you might, but will DH be allowed to by Messrs Woodley and Simpson. I think not.

Also you mention that ST is not important to you, but for the commuters we all know it is. Its a shame none of them could write to DH and get him to explain WHY after all this time ST hasn't been reinstated despite being promised it back in 5 mins. I hear from lots of crew why cant WW just gine us our ST back and they would be quite happy to move on. As I explain to them, Bassa would then move onto the sacked/suspendees, and then the next thing etc. It wouldn't end with giving ST back. WW is not that stupid and gullable.

Agreements will always be subject to change. In order to protect ourselves we need a strong union to negotiate with the company about those agreements. Is BASSA that union?

They didn't negotiate and then went on strike, squandering their most effective weapon, the threat of strike.

So what happens now, folks. Does anyone know or remember what BASSA want anymore?

Mixed Fleet
 

I understand the first MF routes have been confirmed from November as Las Vagas, Denver, Pisa, St Petersburg and Prague.

So its starting

Wilbelsturm,

Very good post! Lots of facts and explanations.

Your description of 'final correction' has been on the horizon for a long time. I believe that a strong union is very important, but strong does not mean intransigent or selfish. bassa have never been known for their 'negotiating skills' in my whole time in the company. They have always considered any efforts towards compromise as a sign of weakness. This lack of being willing to seek any compromise has directly led to this 'final correction'.

All other workgroups have negotiated in good faith and attempted to 'negotiate' the best deals for their members. The fact that all other groups have signed up to these negotiated settlements proves that BA are not out to deliberately destroy unions. I do not believe for a minute that WW and the LT want to destroy bassa, but I am equally certain that he does want to reduce their unhealthy power and influence over the running of the airline.

I am sure that Bill Francis wants to be as open and honest with cabin crew as possible regarding the routes that go over to New Fleet. However, he will have no influence about which routes are transferred in the future - these decisions will be made by the 'bean counters' who are not renowned for putting people before profit!

bassa's completely unrealistic attempts at negotation have allowed the opening of Pandora's box (New Fleet) and the contents of that box can never be put back inside. New Fleet had been taken off the table, but it was just the total unwillingness of bassa to negotiate that ensured it returned.

Surely it is time that bassa members demanded a change of leadership to get rid of this much of militant meglomaniacs who are only interested in their own power base. The present bunch of reps have only been looking after their own interests - NOT the rank and file members who pay their subs and expected to be represented properly.

It is also important to remember that any 'assurances' about certain routes being retained by current LH crew are dependant on a settlement being reached between BA and Bassa/Unite.

If this settlement doesnt happen, BA are free to move whatever routes they want. I have already heard some crew complaining that the new Tokyo service will probably be new fleet.

Please do not allow yourselves to think these assurances are valid now.

Yellow Pen

BASSA have different numbers as to how many have claimed strike pay. I'm sceptical to information presented by BA as they sometimes tend to twist things to their own advantage.

Betty Girl

It remains to be seen whether there will be another ballot. As I previously said I couldn't be less bothered with ST as I almost never use it but I happen to care about our commuting colleagues and what they are going through. You say that BA can't get rid of those of us on the old contract. Why not? Because no cabin crew have been placed in CL before? That's no guarantee whatsoever.

The Blu Riband

Negotiation. Not imposition. That's what the strike is about. Satisfied?

A threat of a possible strike in the future will always have an affect on forward bookings. It's one of our strongest weapon. BA might be able to depart 100% of all WW flights should a strike occur. Customers however will not get what they are paying for. Flights crewed by VCC? VCC are not anywhere near the standards of some of us legacy crew. I have had the pleasure of working with some of them and I should certainly hope they perform better at Waterside or wherever they are based.

No but it would prevent them from recruiting any more cabin crew for a couple of years and that wouldn't help mixed-fleet get going.

Wasnt the '97 strike based around similar scaremongering from BASSA about old contract crew being forced onto the new contract?

How many old contract crew have been forced onto the new contract in the intervening 13 years?

MissM
 

Laughable! You only listen to BASSA then MissM and take what they say as gospel? Staff travel back in 5 minutes amongst many other untruths/misinformation!

And how long do you negotiate for? One year,two, three before BASSA would come to anything like a compromise?

In your opinion MissM. A little display of self importance here maybe?

Funniest post I've read in ages! I genuinely haven't read anything that Bassa have published that has anything to do with pilots, that hasn't been wrong, inaccurate or misleading. That's why so many of us find Bassa's 'word' so difficult to believe.

So there may not be another ballot? So what has all this strife over the last 18 months+ been for? As for getting rid of old contract cabin crew, you can't just get rid of people without jumping through many employment law hoops, many of which curtail the ability of an employer to lay off who it wants to lose. It's just scaremongering to suggest otherwise, but it suits Bassa's tactics to develop in its members that sense of being under siege and constant threat.
Looking at it from a different point of view, when the Bassa reps said "No complement reductions" were they not IMPOSING their own solution on the cost reduction negotiations?

I should hope legacy cabin crew are better than VCC, who are trained to a standard to allow the flights to depart safely, and with some element of the service. But at least BA earns the revenue and the passengers reach their destination. (It's the only time I've seen a whole crew applauded by passengers at the gate)

Sporran, thanks.

The point above is that even the most stubborn child will eventually realise that when the talking is exhausted the imposition will come. BASSA were warned they just didn't believe that the company would do it against the all powerful BASSA.

Failure to push through change would have led to total loss in forward investment over the past two years leading to an inability to cover the atrocious losses incurred leading to a potential collapse of the business. Satisfied?

I'll repost this after checking thoroughly for the 'correct' text.


Where in the CC Contract appears the clause 'contract for life'? Is it a bit like a Hugo Chavez contract?
Managers have to re-negotiate their own contracts, often on a yearly basis, based upon previous performance but the CC should be protected and cosseted all their life? This is not a nationalised company any more it is privately owned so the quote:


Should not come as a surprise to anyone.

Contracts are made to be re-negotiated as market circumstances change. Most unionised groups throughout BA have been very successful at long negotiation thus enabling change over a long period. Sadly BASSA have failed their membership in this and whilst it seemed for many a year they they held the high ground with their aggressive stance all it meant was that the final correction would be all the more painful. Welcome to the final correction. Agreements are put into the contracts to enable them to be changed at short notices without the total re-negotiation (that word again) and re-writing. They may appear in a contract but, as the court case proved this year, are NOT legally binding.


And didn't Len McKlusky do exceedingly well protecting the 'contracts' of his previous 'bothers and sisters' in the Dock industry in Merseyside? He protected them so well that the whole docks industry collapsed due to being totally non competitive and the contracts vanished into the wind in the dole queue of the 1980's.

Lets look at Tony Woodly? Member of the TGWU which led 'negotiations' in the protection of the workers employed by the beleagured British car industry, an industry that needed radical reform to survive the onslaught of the Japanese car manufacturers. Once again a total failure to negotiate meaningfully and a demand to the strict adherence of the 'old contracts' led to the industry collapsing.

So here we have two pillars of the Union community both still employed on nice salaries (they'll be losing child benefit) after totally destroying their respective industries with their 'all for one, one for all' rhetoric.

Quote from Len McKlusky:

I would love to see them try to pull BA back into the national industry which would lead to the collapse of the airline as EU rules do not allow state subsidy of airlines. But Len would know that wouldn't he?

BASSA and Unite are terrified of losing the grip on the reigns of BA that they have managed to acquire over the past 20 years. BASSA aren't interested in the individual any more they are aghast that their bullying, yes bullying, approach to negotiations, using the 'nuclear' option from the outset, has failed.

There is a core who will constantly believe that they can hold on to the past as it is their right and, personally, I feel sorry for them. The only way to protect future contracts is through progressive, structured and adult dialouge with the company. The time of BASSA is past.


Hopefully that now contains nothing to 'derail' the debate.

Thanks
:(

I suspect you won't be given the opportunity again.

HF

I agree, strong rumours that a settlement is to be announced within the next week.

The rumours abound that Walsh and Woodley are about to conclude a deal, but Woodley is not in a position to deliver a deal. Only the BASSA leadership can conclude the deal, a result of them seizing back power after Woodley put them back in their box at the last dispute, and the BASSA leadership will never agree a deal which fails to put them back in their jobs at BA, something Walsh won't countenance. The only way Woodley could deliver a deal would be through the implicit threat to cut BASSA loose from Unite, and I doubt there'd be many supporters of that amongst Unite whilst the leadership of the union is still up for grabs.

Yellow Pen
 

I don't agree with you on this - DH knows he will never be returning to BA - any offers from BA will be put to a ballot of that I am certain, so it will be down to the members to decide

IF Woodley and Walsh can come to an agreement, such that UNITE recommend the agreement to BASSA members and it is subsequently rejected, BASSA will become far more isolated than they are now. UNITE would then be less inclined to go to bat for BASSA - remember that while it is only BASSA that can end a dispute, it is only UNITE that can authorise a ballot.

This represents a real problem for BASSA as without another successful ballot there will be no more protected IA - assuming that any further ballot cannot be challenged in court. How many BASSA members are so committed to the cause that they REALLY put their job on the line?

Hotel Mode

None but the strike in '97 was different. At least the new contract was integrated onto existing fleets. We are now facing a separate fleet which means the end to EF and WW fleets.

Ranger07

ST had no relevance in my decision to strike. Personally they can stuff it but as I have said many of our commuters are suffering from participating in a lawful industrial action. What BA did when they removed this concession was to punish every striker for being naughty.

Self importance? Of course. We are the reason as to why BA was once the world's favourite airline. Sure, some managers and desk clerks at Waterside might have put a few things together but the cabin crew are the face of the airline.

midman

What do you think will happen when we are too many crew on EF and WW fleets? They will either offer us Mixed Fleet (despite them being afraid of us contaminating the fleet) or show us the door.

BASSA offered different solutions which excluded crewing level reductions. BA weren't interested. At one point they were only £10 million pounds apart so I doubt that they have ever been interested in reaching an agreement.

Strikebreaking crew and VCC not minding their own business being applauded by passengers at the gate? Sure, that's certainly something to applaud at.

As much as some of you obviously would prefer me to do, I won't be going anywhere for a while. Maybe if BA offered me a good VR package I would consider it!

Iberia merger wont happen??
Bookings will suffer??
Singapore going to MF in November??
Staff travel returned in 5 minutes??
etc etc etc

VR??
Keep dreaming Miss M!!

Wonderful arrogance. It would seem within the world rankings the 'face of the airline' is in need of a lift.

Forget what everyone else does within BA, the Cabin Crew, according to BASSA, are all that counts. The CEO that lead to such crass opinions is long gone as should such arrogance.

Yes I admit, an error on my part calling it a contract instead of an agreement. Nevertheless, it's still an agreement from BA in writing that confirms my future earnings which is much more than you or other crew members have. And for that I am grateful to BA.
In Backing BA, we backed ourselves protecting our jobs and those of other employees in BA too.
You are stating the obvious and that is not in question here and neither are we oblivious to that.
As far as BA not protecting us, how would you explain Bill Francis offer that we've signed up to if that's not protecting our future earnings?
I have flown with several BASSA members who wished they too could have accepted the same offer.
I'm very happy with the offer from Bill Francis and prepared to move with the times and work with BA. As far as I am concerned, I'm playing my part like the rest of the BA workforce in contributing to cost savings while protecting my job. How are you playing your part exactly?

By the way, is BASSA the so called strong Trade Union that you are referring to that failed to bring BA to it's knees?
Bravo!:ugh:

It's not too late for what exactly, Miss M? The freak show is over and we've all moved on and are working with BA in a positive way to bring back business. Judging from my flights the past couple off weeks with extremly high business loads, you've failed miserably.

Surely what everyone else is doing can't be too important or time-consuming as they have enough spare time to complete both cabin crew training and crew flights.

Like it or not, we are the face of the airline. We spend the longest time with our customers. Whenever a manager, or some desk clerk, at Waterside decides to change something onboard, we have to face the consequences and deal accordingly, not them.

Tiramisu

It's not too late to change side. Should there be another strike, you are more than welcome to come to BFC. Some of you, those 1000 who signed the individual BA offer and really sold yourselves down the river, might have move on. What happens later? No union representation. You will be on your own. Are you relying that PCCC will come and rescue you?

If you, and every other union member who crossed the picket line for whatever reasons, had supported your union, which is responsible for the terms and conditions which you are enjoying, we never would have been here today. The dispute would have been long gone. Unfortunately there will always be individuals who are enjoying certain benefits, which others are fighting for because they don't want to do it themselves.

Tiramisu
 

As previously mentioned - BA had an 'agreement' with it's crew in the past which it changed - how on earth can you seriously believe that your future earnings are 'guaranteed'. The only way it would be 'guaranteed' was if it was a contractual term - your signed 'agreement' is not contractual.

Thats your opinion of course, in my opinion you have helped accelerate the demise of our job

For a start it came from Mr Francis, and more importantly it is not a 'contractual' agreement

I have flown with several non-strikers who wished they had striked - both of our comments are unsubstantiated hearsay

Good luck

By working with one less crew member every trip

I suggest you re-read what I wrote -

Take whatever Bill Francis offered you with a pinch of salt - they will change whatever they want to change and do whatever they want to do. The only thing that could possibly stop them doing that would be a strong Trades Union and thats almost a thing of the past.

I emphasised the fact that BASSA is almost a spent force so I do not understand your point. BASSA is still the strongest trades union amongst Cabin Crew. There simply is no other viable alternative.

Miss M,
No offence, but I'm not the type to frequent BFC even if it was the last place on earth!
As far as BASSA is concerned, it is a reckless union which has lost credibility in every sense. It's tarnished the name of cabin crew and I wouldn't want to be associated with it in any way. I'm also content with the benefits that BA have granted me.
I'm very happy with the PCCC which has a respectable and very adult forum where momentum is growing rapidly. If I need support, I will consult the PCCC.

Miss m :
So why didn't you take it when it was offered about a year ago ?

Why only some of you, MissM?
 

Are you saying that some "legacy crew" are no better than VCC?
Are we to assume that you place yourself amongst the "legacy crew" who're so much better than VCC?

In which case there will never be an agreement.

Do BA even care any more?
They could just let Bassa and their lemmings wallow in self pity.

numberfifteenplease,
But yet you went on strike for working one crew member less!:rolleyes:

PS:I have re-read your post re-BASSA being a spent force, so my reference to BASSA being the so called stong Trade Union was indeed irrelevant.

So, has a deal been struck with Unite and BA ?

Sorry, but I've been off the radar for a bit and have missed all the latest gossip.......................

By the way, when did the thread title get changed ? Don't I get consulted on anything anymore!

Miss M
 

As someone who is not cabin crew I can only say that your comments show a remarkable lack of knowledge of the airline business.

[Takes deep breath]

Without wishng to be disparaging to cabin crew, you might care to contemplate what happened during the strike and extrapolate.

BA as a business continued to operate. We sold lots of seats. we sold lots of cargo space, we made certain that passengers, their baggage and all that cargo got from A to B. We bought in aircraft and crews.

Basic bit of airline fact - you don't need planes or cabin crew or (and here I am on thin ice given this forum) flight crew. You do need accountants, marketeers, sales folk, revenue management and maybe the odd IT bod. You don't need vast numbers but you do need some.You can go into the market place and buy the rest. That's what wet leasing is all about. You can buy in your ground handling, that's what Servisair Gatwick Handling and others provide. You won't make as much profit or have as big an asset base, but then you won't have huge debts to service either.

Cabin crew may be one of the faces of the airline, but are no use unless there is sizeable operation out there to ensure that there are passengers to carry in the first place.Cabin crew are not the most important part of the airline, never have been and never will be. Your comments only serve to make you look foolish.

The strength of an organisation is the sum of its component parts.

Millitant or Moderate
 

What I find very interesting in the debate today, is whether BASSA/Unite or the PCCC would represent the interests of crew better? I would be a little naive if I thought that the bulk of contributors to this and previous threads, thought that BASSA/Unite was a good thing, but why set up another association to consult with BA? If BA are a reasonable employer, then a works council set up under the ICE regs would suffice. OK, you would not have negotiating rights, but negotiating rights mean nothing, if you cannot enforce a position and that does mean industrial action.

I understand that a banner is needed to draw people away from BASSA/Unite (I really want to say the T&G and god help us if Len gets in and my subsequent expulsion from Unite), but who is to say that the PCCC will not be made up of BASSA reps, if a deal is made by Unite with BA? There probably would be a fair few union cards ripped up if that happened, but could the PCCC be selective in its membership?

DeThirdDefect

I can't speak for everybody but there are always exceptions. Surely there are probably some VCC who perform better than certain regular CC but they are definitely in the minority. I know that I'm very good at my job. I have a very good service record and would undoubtedly beat every VCC in every aspect onboard.

Tiramisu

We were striking over the principle of imposition and not actually the fact that crewing levels were decreased.

Colonel White

Are cabin crew not needed? Try departing a full 747 without any cabin crew onboard and you will see what happens. I gather you would get a personal visit from CAA.

BA is a premium airline. Customers pay a lot of money to fly with us and they do so for many reasons. We offer a good service (not as good as it used to be) onboard. Who deliver it? That would be us in the cabin. Customers tend to have high expectations, both on the service itself but also on us.

BA has some truly excellent cabin crew. Then there are a majority who do their job as required. Then there is unfortunately a terrible minority as well who believe that the company owes them a living.

BA has created a monster - continually, crew have been told they are 'the best'. You just need to look at in-flight assessments - apparently crew member XYZ is exceptional because he smiled and used a customer name. Surely that should be the norm? There are countless other examples.

BA crew are not the world's best, I'm not sure if such a thing exists. The rifts between crew, and between crew and management, need to be fixed urgently. Ultimately, BA will move on with or without its crew. Ask yourself: 'how easily can BA replace me?' versus 'how easily can I replace BA?'

(My personal opinions, not those of my employer)

Latest figures
 

Miss M said Clearly she hasn't seen the latest stats for September. BA carried more passengers this year than last and more in premium cabins. So much for strike threats affecting forward bookings. :D BASSA going to go on strike ? Only if Unite let them have a ballot. And Unite won't do that because they know that the reason on the ballot paper links it to the previous walkout. BA could then not only sack strikers, they could also come after Unite for compensation. Now given Unite's dodgy finances having spent a small fortune first backing Labour in the election and then backing young Ed for the Labour leadership, plus all the cash they've splurged on this dispute in strike pay and legal fees, coupled with the money they need if they want a round of public services strikes, they may not have much in the kitty to pay BA as well.

If BASSA are determined to take action, Unite may just cut them loose. After all, BASSA aren't looking for a settlement, have cost the union a small bundle to date, damaged Unite's credibility at large by failing to mobilise mass support and could do further damage to the union by any continued action. Moreover, BA seem well placed to nullify the impact of any strike. Unite have bigger fish to fry.