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BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
This thread is intended for use by people presently employed as airline staff.
To discuss BA Cabin Crew industrial relations only. If you do not fall into this category - please do not post here: Please visit the Pax/SLF Forum where there is an active thread running HERE that welcomes your thoughts. |
Funny that this thread has so far been viewed 1326 times and yet no one has written anything yet! Just how many lurkers follow this conversation?
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Perhaps because there's really, really nothing left to say.
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It appears Bassa still has a lot to say.
BASSA - Latest News "BILL’S WORLD" Oct 4th, 2010 by admin “Bill’s world”... Time for a party? Excellent! ...Errmmm, well maybe not quite. Unfortunately, unlike the 90’s cult movie ‘Wayne’s World’, Bill’s world isn’t particularly excellent and, for most people, it certainly isn’t party time. To be honest, on the whole it’s actually just a pretty depressing place to be, with a split, demotivated workforce and an out-of-touch, out-of-control management busy “ethnically cleansing” any crew who dare to disagree or question. In fact in “Bills world” things go from the ridiculous to the downright callous as the days go by; during this week alone we all received an ESS mail from Rachael Clarke, informing us that we would be having three additional VCC crew members on flights and for us to give them a “big, warm, cabin crew welcome on board” The irony that these are the very people that volunteered to undermine and break our industrial action, ensuring that we not only lost money and work but also lost our staff travel, seems to have completely passed her by. Obviously they are also keeping their hand in, ready to break the next one. We have no idea what jobs they actually normally do, but clearly they cannot be missed very much; perhaps they should have a look over their own shoulders, as the shadow of new fleet approaches, they may very well find themselves on it, permanently this time. XXXX XXXX, one of our most popular, short haul representatives, is facing a difficult and personal ongoing battle against cancer, we of course wish him well and know that XXXX will also feel much better and more supported in his fight, with the news that Bill Francis’s department has decided to stop paying him after the minimum 6 month period of sickness. In the past, fleet managers used their discretion to be humane and caring to people in difficult circumstances; not any longer in Bill’s world. They seem to believe that worrying how to pay your mortgage and being penniless will surely aid any cancer sufferer in their battle to stay alive. Don’t worry though, XXXX wasn’t singled out for this special treatment for being a union rep, we just use him as an example, everybody with long-term sickness, including cancer, now get treated exactly the same. Incidentally XXXX has given 45 years of service to this company meaning that XXXX was attending to passengers while Bill was still in nappies! (Now that’s a thought not worth lingering over). National newspapers recently revealed that Mr Walsh, alongside other Directors, is also set to receive massive future share bonuses and benefits, ironically at the exact same time as cabin crew have to pay more for a reduced pension. The ill-judged fight for survival now resembles more of an unseemly squabble at the trough. As merger after merger is announced or rumoured, money now appears to be no object. Chosen your future pension option? Then take a long hard look at your final pension projection and its meagre final figure, then be aware that a large proportion of our flight deck colleagues will receive pensions of over a hundred thousand pounds per year. Legislation only provides protection for pensions up to £29,748.68p, most cabin crew are of course, below this threshold. Perhaps that is why the pilot community were motivated to organise volunteers to break a strike of people who are possibly on a tenth of their salary. It would appear their motive was to save themselves, rather than British Airways. Lenny McCluskey, our preferred candidate has publicly committed to try and have BALPA removed from the TUC family for their crass, selfish actions. So, to cheer us all up, how about: “Unite victorious as removed crew member is back on board” as a headline instead? Don’t laugh, it’s true, we originally took industrial action over the removal of one crew member without agreement - we have now gained three! Job done, let’s all relax. Okay, they are all working to New Fleet terms with no agreement but hey, let’s not get picky... A prominent central London billboard aptly reads: “People from bad areas steal your mobile phone, People from good areas steal your pension” .....in Willy, Billy and Silly’s case it comes with a happy grin thrown in but not for much longer, keep the faith. X X X X ......believe it. |
Go on then, let's remind ourselves about this imposition malarkey shall we?
You know, the one Nigel Stott wanted damages for, even though he never actually set foot on a plane after it happened. Imposition case thrown out |
An interesting missive from BASSA. Full of the usual stuff, but conspicuously short on anything that could actually progress the dispute. I guess BASSA have now placed all of their hopes in the hands of the courts.
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My Bold below from BASSA latest
out-of-control management busy “ethnically cleansing” any crew who dare to disagree or question. No content regarding any forthcoming action however, save for the mention of BALPA's future membership, so CC are still in the wilderness as to their future and their ST, those still in the union that havent accepted the last offer that is. Also, are these messages released from BASSA never from a person, at most all I ever see is Admin and on this one not even that. As I dont have access to the source (thankfully) can someone confirm this is how they are sent out, unsigned. Is that usual? |
So Len wants BALPA out of the TUC? It's a shame the BALPA members don't get a vote as Len's count would probably increase by 3000.
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And now?
As this is near the beginning of a new, albeit continued thread, would any BASSA supporters, current or past, like to tell us where they think we currently are in this dispute and how they think it could be resolved given what has happened up to now?
I don't think anyone is naive enough to think that BA will accede to their demands, so the question is really, not what you want, but rather what would you settle for. I realise that this may leave you open to the wrath of some of the more enthusiastic posters, but I would be very interested to hear your views. Thanks Sgt Wilson |
Perhaps that is why the pilot community were motivated to organise volunteers to break a strike of people who are possibly on a tenth of their salary. It would appear their motive was to save themselves, rather than British Airways. Lenny McCluskey, our preferred candidate has publicly committed to try and have BALPA removed from the TUC family for their crass, selfish actions. BALPA removed from the TUC family for their crass, selfish actions. So, a normal BASSA missive with very little substance then. All hail Len McKlusky, another Union stalwart with the death of an industry behind him. Can't wait. |
Looks like BASSA have "locked out" legacy crew from lots of Long range work, and thus lots of nice long range box payments. Seems that Narita(moves to the 777 in 2011), Hanida and Buenos Aires are all destined for "new fleet" also I have been told that "legacy crew" will not be flying the A380 or the 787:*
Well done BASSA for your hard line stance:D:D |
Pornpants, it important that you don't pass on hearsay as fact on this thread.
The only routes that have been confirmed so far are from November- Prague, St. Petersburg and Pisa and from December- Denver and Las Vegas. WW crew are trained on the 777 and the crew who fly on the new aircraft has not been decided yet. |
Betty girl
dear oh dear
Its a rumour forum!!:ok::ok: That being said I post what I hear from some very well placed people:uhoh::uhoh: Pornpants, it important that you don't pass on hearsay as fact on this thread. The only routes that have been confirmed so far are from November- Prague, St. Petersburg and Pisa and from December- Denver and Las Vegas. WW crew are trained on the 777 and the crew who fly on the new aircraft has not been decided yet. To repeat myself , I have been told by numerous people over the last 10 days that "legacy crew' will not be operating the flights listed above:rolleyes::rolleyes: nor will they be crewing the 787 or a380. Ask yourself if you were BA, and in order to save money what would you do? Lets face it LA LA has already admitted in writting that on the SIN terminator alone BA could save £4 million per year with new fleet. I am talking summer 2011 for the above routes!!!! 4 x a380 arrive in 2013, and 787 hopefully start arrive late 2012. So the wishlist you quote above is long out of date by then! I say again, I am really really glad BASSA have taken the hard line stance that they have, its worked wonders:{:{:{ |
Let's make up a rumour
PornpantsWhilst I admit this is a rumour network,I would like to dull things for a while and add some facts.
I know that's really boring so I won't be long. As you know,all crew were sent a letter by Bill Francis,with the option of the non unionised crew being able to sign in agreement. I have that letter in front of me now.Bill Francis has said: Access to route network I intend to ensure a fair and transparent distribution of routes to all fleets based on commercial need. Access to aircraft type I intend to deploy new aircraft based on commercial need across across existing and new fleets.New aircraft will be introduced on a fair and transparent basis across all the company's fleets.Your existing terms,conditions and fleet agreements will apply when new aircraft are operated on existing fleets.as new aircraft are introduced across all of the company's fleets,you will be trained in order to receive the necessary licences as required by regulation. From where I am sitting that seems quite fair. Are you now saying that Bill Francis is not to be believed and Bassa were right all along?If this has now changed then crew will have no faith in anyone!! Any way back to rumours now |
Virgin currently recruiting cabin crew
To put to bed the pay/market rate issue, Virgin are currently recruiting cabin crew.
Job Details Cabin Crew Ref 69932 Location Contract Type Permanent Salary Range £0 to £15,000 Job Type Cabin Crew Job Details As you would expect, we like to look after our staff and offer a competitive package starting with a full time, permanent contract. The following is currently provided (after a qualifying period):· - a basic salary of £11,564; trip pay, plus on board commission. |
Are you now saying that Bill Francis is not to be believed and Bassa were right all along?If this has now changed then crew will have no faith in anyone!! |
BASSA's communications are full of lies and half-truths. Surely there must come a point when even the most fundamental BASSA supporters will think "well if that's bo****ks then maybe the rest is as well"?
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Are you now saying that Bill Francis is not to be believed and Bassa were right all along?If this has now changed then crew will have no faith in anyone!! Are you saying BA have lied to those of us who signed up to the offer re-route transfer? Is that why senior managers are holding drop in sessions on Eurofleet for Pursers and CSDs to see how they can utilise and manage both these supervisory grades more effectively? That deal is very much there. I happen to have it too and I will ask Bill Francis next time I see him to see if you guys are right. It is a contract we have with BA and it makes no sense whatsoever to have us sitting at home on full pay while Mixed Fleet do these routes. By the way, please stop calling us Legacy or Heritage crew. We are CTCs! For your information that is Current Talented Crew and we are the best!;) |
That deal is binding in it's entirety for those crew that signed it, so although other crew have not signed up to the pay protection, the other parts apply to all crew whatever fleet.
There is absolutely no way BA will have decided which crew work on what aircraft as far away as 2013. It all depends where they send the aircraft, when it arrives, and which other aircraft are being operated on that route. If for example, at that time, Mixed fleet was still operating on the 777 and the new aircraft was going to be used on a route that also had 747s flying on, they may choose to use WW crew and vice versa it may be more flexible to use Mixed Fleet on another route etc. Obviously some long range routes will move across because otherwise as WW gets smaller they would start to operate proportionately more long range, if some did not move across. This would impact on their 900 hours and make them even richer!!! So I think everyone knows some long range routes will move over to Mixed Fleet. What is strange is that some of you seem to revel in the thought of your colleagues losing out. Very strange considering it is you same people, who constantly point out to everyone, that the majority of us worked and did not strike. Here! here! Tiramasu |
It's certainly a coincidence that NRT all of the sudden will become a 777 service next year as well HND and EZE. What destinations would be next? Perhaps SIN as they are re-negotiating the terms and conditions of our crew based there. PEK and PVG would undoubtedly come next. There's also a rumour circulating that SFO will go to Mixed Fleet.
I can't believe the naivety amongst some of you. Do you actually believe that BA will protect current crew from Mixed Fleet just because they have said they intend to insure a fair and transparent distribution of aircraft and destinations? To intend means absolutely nothing. Perhaps it's time to wake up for some of you and see what's happening. |
Italian desert/cake lady;) My only information is for WW beyond that I know very little:ooh:
MissM for the first time I agree with you, but BASSA members and by default non BASSA members are where they are because of a complete and utter failure of BASSA to negotiate sensibly :*:mad::mad: |
Miss M,
How are you? The ones who need to wake up is those who thought BASSA would get them Staff Travel in five minutes and those who didn't believe Willie Walsh who said that you would lose Staff Travel if you strike. Having said that I am genuinely sorry for you having lost your staff travel and for being so naive and gullible. |
Whilst some crew were naively worrying about working one down,others were waking up and smellling the coffee.
They were aware of the real issues at stake.New fleet. Some crew chose to strike over the crewing levels. Others chose a different battle and attempted to secure as good a deal as they could to protect their pay. It seems both sides have achieved their aim. Non unionised crew have payment protection and the union have succeeded in getting extra crew on board. VCC. But at what cost? |
I think HND and EZE are red herrings in this as any guarantees are only about route transfers not about new routes. The single NRT being changed to the 777 and NF would be a sensible commercial decision allowing crewing flexibility between the 2 Tokyo destinations.
A single route going over to MF is hardly indicative of a policy to strip lucrative destinations from CTC. MF will have to be employed somewhere and they will be used where it makes commercial sense. If BASSA had allowed CTC crew to look at hourly pay a few years ago then no routes would be "premium" routes, they would just be routes. |
Tiramisu
It is a contract we have with BA and it makes no sense whatsoever to have us sitting at home on full pay while Mixed Fleet do these routes. For those of you who 'Backed BA' - you will not be 'protected' neither will 'legacy' (I love the way you Pilots are using that word) crew. For Tiramisu, HiFlyer14, Eddy et al - you need to understand that BA is a business, a corporate machine, a money making entity for it's shareholders, simples :ok: BA is not here to 'protect' nor 'look after' anyone - it is here to make money. Take whatever Bill Francis offered you with a pinch of salt - they will change whatever they want to change and do whatever they want to do. The only thing that could possibly stop them doing that would be a strong Trades Union and thats almost a thing of the past. Remember those movies that the baddies used to get the guy to dig their own grave before they shot them - welcome to the real world guys, you just helped dig your own grave. (By the way I recommend Spear & Jackson as a fine manufacturer of garden implements) |
Love the numberfifteen
No15 You are spot on - have(had) been following your threads. Ab fab.
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No15,
It is Bassa that have let you and the rest of us down by striking instead of talking. All the union ever get us, are agreements also, so whats the difference. My agreement is as binding as any Bassa have got and BA has upheld all the agreements to date. Crewing levels were never part of any agreement. Shame Bassa did not make an agreement over the new crewing levels, that none of us are upset about, instead of taking you all out on strike, maybe then we would all have an AGREEMENT and you might have your staff travel also. We all have a choice believe Bill or Bassa and I have found Bill to be the most honest so far. |
BA is not here to 'protect' nor 'look after' anyone - it is here to make money. Take whatever Bill Francis offered you with a pinch of salt - they will change whatever they want to change and do whatever they want to do. The only thing that could possibly stop them doing that would be a strong Trades Union and thats almost a thing of the past. |
Take whatever Bill Francis offered you with a pinch of salt - they will change whatever they want to change and do whatever they want to do. The only thing that could possibly stop them doing that would be a strong Trades Union and thats almost a thing of the past. |
Tiramisu
Personally I couldn't be less bothered with ST as I almost never use it and should I ever travel in the future I will take my business elsewhere. And I am genuinely sorry for those of you who thought you were backing BA when crossing the picket line. Some of you might have signed a three year deal with the company which protects you for the time being but in my opinion you have really sold yourselves down the river. What happens later? It's not too late for you, or anyone else, to change your mind. The majority of us made the right decision earlier this year and won't doubt to make that decision again. Personally I will strike go on strike for as long as it takes as some of us care about out future and will not accept this behaviour from our excuse to an LT. |
MissM
Tiramisu Personally I couldn't be less bothered with ST as I almost never use it and should I ever travel in the future I will take my business elsewhere. And I am genuinely sorry for those of you who thought you were backing BA when crossing the picket line. Some of you might have signed a three year deal with the company which protects you for the time being but in my opinion you have really sold yourselves down the river. What happens later? It's not too late for you, or anyone else, to change your mind. The majority of us made the right decision earlier this year and won't doubt to make that decision again. Personally I will strike go on strike for as long as it takes as some of us care about out future and will not accept this behaviour from our excuse to an LT. Are you prepared to give anything to this company MissM (other than strike threats), or is that for the rest of the staff to be burdened with? And you wonder why there are so many VCC's willing and able! |
Betty Girl
My agreement is as binding as any Bassa have got and BA has upheld all the agreements to date. Crewing levels were never part of any agreement. You will find that crewing levels are most certainly part of the 'Agreement' that BA and BASSA used to adhere too - in the WW Sceduling Agreement it is section 7 page 29. 7. CREW COMPLEMENTS MINIMUM PLANNED CREW COMPLEMENTS ADDITIONAL CREW MEMBER ROUTES ICC COMPLEMENTS WORKING POSITIONS DOWNROUTE SHORTAGE We had an 'Agreement' and BA changed it - just as they will now change anything they want too in the future - can't you see that? |
Originally Posted by MissM
The majority of us made the right decision earlier this year
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No 15,
It is not a three year agreement. The pay part is three years. Did you actually read it!!! |
Betty Girl
No 15, It is not a three year agreement. The pay part is three years. Did you actually read it!!! |
Sorry No15 it was Miss M in post 30 that mentioned three years.
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MissM,
I don't think your union will strike now. I think they will find some way to save face and sign you up to the agreement. Shame they let go of a better one and lost you your staff travel for you.!!! |
No.15 you see things so clearly, yes it is all about running a busiiness and making money. Each one of us is just a name and staff number, once you actually start believing that the company care about your rights/contract etc you have lost the plot. Welcome to the world of corporate business it is very ruthless. It is a sad fact that loyalty and even going to work during the strike and backing BA will not help you in the long run. I have been very proud to work for BA but I am no fool we are tiny cogs in a very large wheel and can and will be replaced to save money. Our board can afford the top lawyers, stragists, economists they can run circles around us at the same time putting such a spin on it making it all very believable for the guillible.
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Betty Girl
Sorry No15 it was Miss M in post 30 that mentioned three years. |
Look BA can not get rid of people just because they are on an old contract. They will not be paying for us to sit at home and do no work either. Qantas have done exactly the same thing and have crew on different contracts and the old contracts are still there.
You are all being frightened by a union that has got out of control. Yes of course BA would rather have people on cheaper contracts and as we leave that is what will happen. They are making huge savings from the new crew compliments and even bigger savings from Mixed fleet (and the union has helped make these bigger than ever) What we should all do is get on with doing our job and show BA that E/F and WW can be better than Mixed Fleet with all our experienced crew. |
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