BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Have we hit a nerve CCCP? I do enjoy a little childish name wrangling.
Jealousy? Not in the slightest. Bias and vitriol? Please re-read and explain where those appear? The remark about the vehicles was put in as the pictures from Bedfont contained such images. As the imposition was supposed to hit the CC in their pockets those images caused interesting comments in public blogs across the internet. If, as you state, you studied psychology then you must see the negative impact such images would have on the ability of the BASSA campaign to garner public sympathy.
The major reason that many of the other departments workd as VCC (all other departments) was that we could see the major financial difficulties that the company was in at the time. It was job protection pure and simple. Are the conditions the same now? Possibly not. Are the VCC's needed quite so much now? Possibly not. The ability to fend off this mess WAS in BASSA's hands, they squandered it.
As to your 'support' of the BASSA heirarchy I seem to remember the clause which puts off the election of the board until completion of the current dispute. Again, the video is available on the internet. As the current board has completely screwed up the current dispute it would seem that the 'democratic' members (who don't even get to vote on acceptance) aren't being given a very democratic voice on who controls the current dispute.
CCCP: Союз Советских Социалистических Республик - Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Always nice to have you briefing on democracy!
Jealousy? Not in the slightest. Bias and vitriol? Please re-read and explain where those appear? The remark about the vehicles was put in as the pictures from Bedfont contained such images. As the imposition was supposed to hit the CC in their pockets those images caused interesting comments in public blogs across the internet. If, as you state, you studied psychology then you must see the negative impact such images would have on the ability of the BASSA campaign to garner public sympathy.
The major reason that many of the other departments workd as VCC (all other departments) was that we could see the major financial difficulties that the company was in at the time. It was job protection pure and simple. Are the conditions the same now? Possibly not. Are the VCC's needed quite so much now? Possibly not. The ability to fend off this mess WAS in BASSA's hands, they squandered it.
As to your 'support' of the BASSA heirarchy I seem to remember the clause which puts off the election of the board until completion of the current dispute. Again, the video is available on the internet. As the current board has completely screwed up the current dispute it would seem that the 'democratic' members (who don't even get to vote on acceptance) aren't being given a very democratic voice on who controls the current dispute.
CCCP: Союз Советских Социалистических Республик - Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Always nice to have you briefing on democracy!
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Mesmer. I have BA's Offer in front of me from the Way Forward Agreement of April 2010. It states:
"There will be a separate mixed flying fleet for new crew, with separate terms and conditions and bargaining rights. There will be a separate negotiating body for the new fleet, which will not discuss the terms and conditions of current crew"
This does not appear to be on the BASSA agenda.
The separate negotiating body is of course the PCCC. This has been BA's plan all along, hence my allegation that it has been set up under the "auspices" of BA.
"There will be a separate mixed flying fleet for new crew, with separate terms and conditions and bargaining rights. There will be a separate negotiating body for the new fleet, which will not discuss the terms and conditions of current crew"
This does not appear to be on the BASSA agenda.
The separate negotiating body is of course the PCCC. This has been BA's plan all along, hence my allegation that it has been set up under the "auspices" of BA.
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One of the letters from Bill Francis, way back in the early days of the dispute, contained a clause that would shelve New Fleet if BASSA would agree to permanent cost savings measures which included rationalisation of various payments into an hourly flying pay rate. Good for the junior members, not so good for the senior CSD's.
BASSA refused.
New Fleet went ahead.
Cost savings achieved.
BASSA refused.
New Fleet went ahead.
Cost savings achieved.
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But CCCP, my quotations was taken directly from the BASSA offer of the 10th March 2010. I am not sure I am allowed to post links to a BASSA website here, but will happily send you the link if you would like.
Mesmer
Mesmer
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Had a response back from a nice man at the certification office. It appears the Pccc's newfound union status is rather less concrete than it would appear.
As they have declined to be listed, at a small cost of £150, then there are limited investigations carried out as to whether it is indeed a trade union or not. To appear on the "schedule" of trade unions and not the "list" is not sufficient evidence to qualify as a trade union in a court of law.
Additionally, no checks are carried out as to whether the "union" is independent or not. This is only dobe after a request for a "certificate of independence" is received.
So to summarise.
The pccc may not be a trade union
If it is then it is NOT considered to be independent by the certification office.
As they have declined to be listed, at a small cost of £150, then there are limited investigations carried out as to whether it is indeed a trade union or not. To appear on the "schedule" of trade unions and not the "list" is not sufficient evidence to qualify as a trade union in a court of law.
Additionally, no checks are carried out as to whether the "union" is independent or not. This is only dobe after a request for a "certificate of independence" is received.
So to summarise.
The pccc may not be a trade union
If it is then it is NOT considered to be independent by the certification office.
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Wibbly. The type of cars some crew may drive or have parked at Bedfont is a superfluous observation, that only gives someone like myself who has studied psychology, an insight into your personality.
The other day I saw a Captain driving a beat up old Renault Laguna with the exhaust rear box blowing. I could surmise from that he is probably on his third marriage and canot afford anything better. However if BA pilots were in dispute with the company, I would not read anything specific about his choice of vehicle or his ability to run only an old banger as most of his salary is going out in alimony.
BA's financial position in 2009 and its future prospects were exagerrated and talked down respectively, in order for Walsh to push his agenda of pay cuts, using the downturn as an excuse. BASSA's position was that the recession was temporary, as it has proved to be.
The only people with egg on their faces, are the ones that believed Walsh's warped rhetoric.
The other day I saw a Captain driving a beat up old Renault Laguna with the exhaust rear box blowing. I could surmise from that he is probably on his third marriage and canot afford anything better. However if BA pilots were in dispute with the company, I would not read anything specific about his choice of vehicle or his ability to run only an old banger as most of his salary is going out in alimony.
BA's financial position in 2009 and its future prospects were exagerrated and talked down respectively, in order for Walsh to push his agenda of pay cuts, using the downturn as an excuse. BASSA's position was that the recession was temporary, as it has proved to be.
The only people with egg on their faces, are the ones that believed Walsh's warped rhetoric.
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CCCP,
Ah, once again, 20/20 hindsight, what a wonderful thing. So, in the fevered imagination of BASSA, without looking at the financial data from the company nor accepting the independant findings of PwC, the companies position was exaggerated and talked down. My, perhaps BASSA should also have been running the economy with such erudite foresite. All recessions are temporary CCCP, the question is for how long. Have you, perhaps, considered what position the company might have been in if they didn't impose change? Let me help you. The dispute has cost BA money. That's a given. They have, however, implemented changes that make the business a far more attractive long term investment vehicle saving millions a year far into the future. The emergency business plan that was presented to the city at the start of the recession hinged upon stabilising forward costs in order to be able to plan against volatile fuel prices. The major consideration in that business plan was stable, long term employee costs. Not savings that had to be given back in two years as the BASSA plan called for (with interest). If that stability had not been achieved then the long term investment in the company could well have dried up and we would be sitting here saying 'bugger, now we all need new jobs' or be at the mercy of an asset stripping company.
Temporary only to BASSA who's influence within the company now seems to be temporary as well.
As to cars, it seems to be you who has the fixation and the vivid imagination, I merely used the reference as a means to describe that most of us can afford £150 if we wish. How much is an Iphone 4 these days? (no I don't have one)
BA's financial position in 2009 and its future prospects were exagerrated and talked down respectively, in order for Walsh to push his agenda of pay cuts, using the downturn as an excuse. BASSA's position was that the recession was temporary, as it has proved to be.
Temporary only to BASSA who's influence within the company now seems to be temporary as well.
As to cars, it seems to be you who has the fixation and the vivid imagination, I merely used the reference as a means to describe that most of us can afford £150 if we wish. How much is an Iphone 4 these days? (no I don't have one)
Mesmer. I have BA's Offer in front of me from the Way Forward Agreement of April 2010. It states:
"There will be a separate mixed flying fleet for new crew, with separate terms and conditions and bargaining rights. There will be a separate negotiating body for the new fleet, which will not discuss the terms and conditions of current crew"
This does not appear to be on the BASSA agenda.
The separate negotiating body is of course the PCCC. This has been BA's plan all along, hence my allegation that it has been set up under the "auspices" of BA.
"There will be a separate mixed flying fleet for new crew, with separate terms and conditions and bargaining rights. There will be a separate negotiating body for the new fleet, which will not discuss the terms and conditions of current crew"
This does not appear to be on the BASSA agenda.
The separate negotiating body is of course the PCCC. This has been BA's plan all along, hence my allegation that it has been set up under the "auspices" of BA.
BA are saying that they will set up a separate body to negotiate terms and conditions for MF. That is actually a benefit to current crew as they will not cut across the existing agreements held within the NSP.
If BASSA had played their cards right they could have recruited new crew and have had a seat on the new body.
In fact in one of the offers made by BA during this debacle it actually offered negotiating rights to Unite (someone who can find the document put it on here please)
Stick to facts
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CCCP
Just to put this one to bed:
When you are in a disciplinary, it is not for BASSA (or any other representative) to "fight your corner".
They attend to ensure that the policy is followed and that a fair hearing is held. Managers are accompanied by colleagues from the people department to ensure the same.
BASSA do not represent you - they merely assist and advise - something that your own manager or a colleague could do equally well.
BASSA cannot influence or change the outcome of the disciplinary.
They use scaremongering tactics to lure crew into thinking that they NEED to be a member of a union... "in case you end up in a discip".
BASSA reps are not lawyers. A discip does not involve anything more than an interview with the employee, and the manager makes their decision based solely on the evidence presented and their own opinion.
The policy which covers discips is very clear and the process is clear cut.
It boils down to:
1. What is the allegation?
2. How do you respond?
3. Do the witness statements corroborate what you claim?
4. Is the allegation found?
5. If yes, what is the sanction?
BASSA cannot prevent you from being disciplined or even sacked, and in clear cut cases, they tend to advise the member to resign before they are dismissed. Or they might even use underhand tactics and advise you to go sick so that you can delay the inevitable and start seeking alternative employment, although this will not prevent the inevitable.
BASSA cannot prevent any of the process from occurring and cannot protect you from the consequences of something you may have done.
To protect yourself, all you need to do is keep your nose clean.
I think the DH case proves that beyond any doubt - if they can't protect one of their own, they certainly can't protect anyone else from the inevitable if they have committed a transgression of some kind.
The only crew who have guarantees around their future earnings and careers at BA are the very ones who are not members of the union, and who have signed the individual offer.
So, I disagree - whether in a discip, or in a collective bargaining situation, being a member of BASSA is less and less relevant and at the moment, and given the predicted outcome of this dispute, is IMHO worthless.
I don't think there is any point in getting too excited about the PCCC. Even if you do not agree with BASSA, most people would want to join an effective union that will support them through disciplinaries and other problems. If the "union" is too biased in favour of the employer, then who would have any confidence in that association being able to fight your corner?
They attend to ensure that the policy is followed and that a fair hearing is held. Managers are accompanied by colleagues from the people department to ensure the same.
BASSA do not represent you - they merely assist and advise - something that your own manager or a colleague could do equally well.
BASSA cannot influence or change the outcome of the disciplinary.
They use scaremongering tactics to lure crew into thinking that they NEED to be a member of a union... "in case you end up in a discip".
BASSA reps are not lawyers. A discip does not involve anything more than an interview with the employee, and the manager makes their decision based solely on the evidence presented and their own opinion.
The policy which covers discips is very clear and the process is clear cut.
It boils down to:
1. What is the allegation?
2. How do you respond?
3. Do the witness statements corroborate what you claim?
4. Is the allegation found?
5. If yes, what is the sanction?
BASSA cannot prevent you from being disciplined or even sacked, and in clear cut cases, they tend to advise the member to resign before they are dismissed. Or they might even use underhand tactics and advise you to go sick so that you can delay the inevitable and start seeking alternative employment, although this will not prevent the inevitable.
BASSA cannot prevent any of the process from occurring and cannot protect you from the consequences of something you may have done.
To protect yourself, all you need to do is keep your nose clean.
I think the DH case proves that beyond any doubt - if they can't protect one of their own, they certainly can't protect anyone else from the inevitable if they have committed a transgression of some kind.
The only crew who have guarantees around their future earnings and careers at BA are the very ones who are not members of the union, and who have signed the individual offer.
So, I disagree - whether in a discip, or in a collective bargaining situation, being a member of BASSA is less and less relevant and at the moment, and given the predicted outcome of this dispute, is IMHO worthless.
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LB
Thanks LB - this is as I understand the policy - appreciate there is a lot more detail to it but just really wanted to make the point that being a member of a union is more about collective bargaining than getting you off if an allegation is made.
And just to clarify that therefore I think that the PCCC or any other eligible organisation / indivuidual with knowledge of BAs internal procedures would be able to offer the equivalent levels of support to an individual in a discip.
Cheers....
GG
And just to clarify that therefore I think that the PCCC or any other eligible organisation / indivuidual with knowledge of BAs internal procedures would be able to offer the equivalent levels of support to an individual in a discip.
Cheers....
GG
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Gay Gourmet. You are right.
BASSA cannot defend anyone who BA is determined to sack, even the Secretary.
Only an Industrial Tribual will be able to determine if IFCE played fair and that the removal of DH was not politically motivated, as BA pursued its policy of union busting.
Many BA pilots have joined the Air Transport section of UNITE or the IPA, because they just want the legal cover and do not believe their previous assocation has any teeth to stand up to a belligerent employer.
BASSA cannot defend anyone who BA is determined to sack, even the Secretary.
Only an Industrial Tribual will be able to determine if IFCE played fair and that the removal of DH was not politically motivated, as BA pursued its policy of union busting.
Many BA pilots have joined the Air Transport section of UNITE or the IPA, because they just want the legal cover and do not believe their previous assocation has any teeth to stand up to a belligerent employer.
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DH, by his own admission, didn't turn up to work. He was warned, he still didn't turn up. He had a contractual obligation to the company and voluntary obligation to the Union. He chose the latter.
Unfair dismissal? Even the tribunal didn't think so, nor any other rational employee.
Unfair dismissal? Even the tribunal didn't think so, nor any other rational employee.
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where's all the money gone?
Of course he didn't turn up to work. He had an extension to build. With a gym, games room and a guest bedroom no less. And various other home improvements.
Anyway back to the topic. Where do all the membership fees go? Perhaps BASSA members need to employ a forensic accountant?
Anyway back to the topic. Where do all the membership fees go? Perhaps BASSA members need to employ a forensic accountant?
Last edited by BASSAwitch; 31st Jan 2011 at 14:33.
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BA shut down the offices of BASSA and denied the reps and leaders of the union, the ability to function. It was a deliberate union busting strategy.
DH has a responsibility to represent as Secretary of BASSA, over 10,000 BA cabin crew. Part of a union busting strategy is to isolate the members from their union officials.
It will be interesting to see what the Tribunals view is of BA's behaviour.
DH has a responsibility to represent as Secretary of BASSA, over 10,000 BA cabin crew. Part of a union busting strategy is to isolate the members from their union officials.
It will be interesting to see what the Tribunals view is of BA's behaviour.
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CCCP, your pattern of postings, diversionary tactics, refusal to answer questions and your use of English remind me of other usernames who no longer seem to post here.... but no matter as I expect you will not be here for long.
You baldly state that
- this thread is not about pilots, remember, but perhaps the mods will allow me to point out that your statement is incorrect and has already been done to death on this and previous threads.
One of BASSA's methods is to keep repeating untruths on the basis that eventually some of it will stick, but that won't work on PPRuNe.
You baldly state that
Many BA pilots have joined the Air Transport section of UNITE or the IPA, because they just want the legal cover and do not believe their previous assocation has any teeth to stand up to a belligerent employer
One of BASSA's methods is to keep repeating untruths on the basis that eventually some of it will stick, but that won't work on PPRuNe.