BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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long hard battle draws to an end
Time is up guys
im afraid you have LOST
you fought well
you made a good show
you did what you thought was right
but where is your strike date?
you wont get one, its all over, time to lay down
the battle has been lost..........it really is all over
Look at what was written to the BASSA members the otherday
a few words that spoke millions
and that was "settling the dispute would mean BAs worst case scenario, BASSA could survive if that was to happen and regroup and live to fight another day"
can you not see it
read inbetween the words, IT IS FINISHED!
im afraid you have LOST
you fought well
you made a good show
you did what you thought was right
but where is your strike date?
you wont get one, its all over, time to lay down
the battle has been lost..........it really is all over
Look at what was written to the BASSA members the otherday
a few words that spoke millions
and that was "settling the dispute would mean BAs worst case scenario, BASSA could survive if that was to happen and regroup and live to fight another day"
can you not see it
read inbetween the words, IT IS FINISHED!
Last edited by report call sign; 2nd Feb 2011 at 00:13.
the lunatic fringe
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MFCREW:
I have never worked in such a dreadful atmosphere where the Cabin Crew are full of such hatred - this cannot be good for either side.
It works both ways. The situation at LHR is dysfunctional at best, and positively dangerous at worst.
Not every pilot, or every cabin crew member is part of the lunatic fringe. It is just that the lunatic fringe are the people who spend there lives posting vitriol, ad-nauseum, on internet forums.
I have never worked in such a dreadful atmosphere where the Cabin Crew are full of such hatred - this cannot be good for either side.
It works both ways. The situation at LHR is dysfunctional at best, and positively dangerous at worst.
Not every pilot, or every cabin crew member is part of the lunatic fringe. It is just that the lunatic fringe are the people who spend there lives posting vitriol, ad-nauseum, on internet forums.
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Not every pilot, or every cabin crew member is part of the lunatic fringe. It is just that the lunatic fringe are the people who spend there lives posting vitriol, ad-nauseum, on internet forums.
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Red Len
Guys,
Len McCluskey is being interviewed on Radio5live - at 10am..Its the Victoria Derbyshire show I think.
Apparently there are other guests from other Unions and organisations who might give Mr McCluskey a run for his money.. Could be interesting.
Len McCluskey is being interviewed on Radio5live - at 10am..Its the Victoria Derbyshire show I think.
Apparently there are other guests from other Unions and organisations who might give Mr McCluskey a run for his money.. Could be interesting.
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MFCREW
The simple fact of this dispute is that the bulk of this company is fed up with the attitude and behaviours of bassa. It is putting everyones future at risk, hence the number of unite members volunteering to be CC.
From the 000's of vols there will be a very small group who always had a desire to be crew and this gives them the opportunity to try the lifestyle, albeit without the allowances and MBT's that go along with it. The rest are doing it for 2 reasons:
1. they want to safeguard their own future.
2. bassa members appear unbending and unwilling to answer any questions of why they are taking this action, other than reciting the mantra of the 'oppressed'.
This minority of CC need to open their eyes and see what is changing in the rest of BA.
From the 000's of vols there will be a very small group who always had a desire to be crew and this gives them the opportunity to try the lifestyle, albeit without the allowances and MBT's that go along with it. The rest are doing it for 2 reasons:
1. they want to safeguard their own future.
2. bassa members appear unbending and unwilling to answer any questions of why they are taking this action, other than reciting the mantra of the 'oppressed'.
This minority of CC need to open their eyes and see what is changing in the rest of BA.
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MFCREW,
A little reasoning if I may and the moderators allow as it talks both about FC and CC.
Sadly it seems that Pilots have become the 'easy' target for the BASSA and CF forums as the purveyours of all evil and those directly responsble for prolonging the BASSA action and causing their ultimate demise.
I for one have not seen the 'pure hatred' and the 'awful conditions' you seem to portray over the past year. Please accept that, if they exist, then it is in a minute section of the thousands of flights a year conducted by BA and thus, statistically, you could end up wth having people you just don't like on the crew irrespective of their Unionistic views.
Many, many, many of us from the other side of the door attended exhaustive economic briefings held both by BA (Keith Williams, not Willie Walsh), our Association and Price Waterhouse Coopers as to the state of the economy, the company, the industry and the country prior to making any decision on our cost savings obligations. At the same time actions were going on over FTL changes within EASA (Which affect all flying crews), Holiday pay (Including CC) and negotiations with the Inland Revenue over down route tax burdens (On which BASSA were briefed but failed to act). After gathering all of that information together there were some members who felt that it was right at the time to protect a fragile operating position and cost base from ill thought out, reactive, cognitive IA from BASSA. Not all who were VCC were Union members, many just decided that the BASSA action was, at the time, inappropriate.
BASSA, at the time, concentrated, rightly or wrongly, on minimising compulsory redundancies. The concentrated (argued) on this for so long and so hard that they failed to achieve headway on anything else. They refused to look at the confidential business documents, refused to believe the PwC independant analysis, refused to believe what the other Unions were advising them and, thus, ended up failing to meet their cost savings obligations and achieved imposition. Was this really adequate representation?
Now the dispute has entered a long winded drawn out phase and, as usual, BASSA lashes out against those who work in the aircraft with you. Unfairly. There is no hatred just astonishment at how badly BASSA has represented its members. Amazement at how the BASSA board think that they can be the only ones who deserve to operate with the same conditions set down in the 1980's and refuse any change.
I have found that the mood over VCC has subtely changed over the past year. We are no longer in a dangerous position financially and thus many FC feel that VCC would be inappropriate given the cirrent circumstances. Sadly all this achieves is making the lies and vitriol from BASSA all the more disproportionate.
A little reasoning if I may and the moderators allow as it talks both about FC and CC.
Sadly it seems that Pilots have become the 'easy' target for the BASSA and CF forums as the purveyours of all evil and those directly responsble for prolonging the BASSA action and causing their ultimate demise.
I for one have not seen the 'pure hatred' and the 'awful conditions' you seem to portray over the past year. Please accept that, if they exist, then it is in a minute section of the thousands of flights a year conducted by BA and thus, statistically, you could end up wth having people you just don't like on the crew irrespective of their Unionistic views.
Many, many, many of us from the other side of the door attended exhaustive economic briefings held both by BA (Keith Williams, not Willie Walsh), our Association and Price Waterhouse Coopers as to the state of the economy, the company, the industry and the country prior to making any decision on our cost savings obligations. At the same time actions were going on over FTL changes within EASA (Which affect all flying crews), Holiday pay (Including CC) and negotiations with the Inland Revenue over down route tax burdens (On which BASSA were briefed but failed to act). After gathering all of that information together there were some members who felt that it was right at the time to protect a fragile operating position and cost base from ill thought out, reactive, cognitive IA from BASSA. Not all who were VCC were Union members, many just decided that the BASSA action was, at the time, inappropriate.
BASSA, at the time, concentrated, rightly or wrongly, on minimising compulsory redundancies. The concentrated (argued) on this for so long and so hard that they failed to achieve headway on anything else. They refused to look at the confidential business documents, refused to believe the PwC independant analysis, refused to believe what the other Unions were advising them and, thus, ended up failing to meet their cost savings obligations and achieved imposition. Was this really adequate representation?
Now the dispute has entered a long winded drawn out phase and, as usual, BASSA lashes out against those who work in the aircraft with you. Unfairly. There is no hatred just astonishment at how badly BASSA has represented its members. Amazement at how the BASSA board think that they can be the only ones who deserve to operate with the same conditions set down in the 1980's and refuse any change.
I have found that the mood over VCC has subtely changed over the past year. We are no longer in a dangerous position financially and thus many FC feel that VCC would be inappropriate given the cirrent circumstances. Sadly all this achieves is making the lies and vitriol from BASSA all the more disproportionate.
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 2nd Feb 2011 at 08:11. Reason: Spellink!
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Wirbelstrum
I have said it a few times on the other thread, but I would like to say it again here. BA were in a fight for survival. BA brought about the staffing level changes it desired and many have mused that those changes were all that were needed to deliver the savings required.
Unite (or branches of) did not believe that there was this epic battle to remain in business and took action against the changes that were unilaterally introduced. That action came at a cost of hundreds of thousands of passengers unable to fly through the disruption and the contingency costs around flying a mostly unaffected operation. That would have come at a significant cost.
Now what has been greater so far, the cost of the action, or the saving from the headcount reduction? New crew are being recruited, but there has been no further reduction in headcount, so has the actual cost of the cabin crew department gone up in real terms?
BA/IAG now appear to be into profit again, albeit not big profits. Bassa offered a temporary fix to what it believed to be a temporary problem, but I accept the discrepancy in figures in the suggested savings. Bassa did not have an obligation to make the savings from its own area; just make bigger ones from all other areas.
It is all pointless speculation on my behalf anyway, because the new contract is in place for both existing staff and new recruits and going on strike again is most definitely not going to change that.
Unite (or branches of) did not believe that there was this epic battle to remain in business and took action against the changes that were unilaterally introduced. That action came at a cost of hundreds of thousands of passengers unable to fly through the disruption and the contingency costs around flying a mostly unaffected operation. That would have come at a significant cost.
Now what has been greater so far, the cost of the action, or the saving from the headcount reduction? New crew are being recruited, but there has been no further reduction in headcount, so has the actual cost of the cabin crew department gone up in real terms?
BA/IAG now appear to be into profit again, albeit not big profits. Bassa offered a temporary fix to what it believed to be a temporary problem, but I accept the discrepancy in figures in the suggested savings. Bassa did not have an obligation to make the savings from its own area; just make bigger ones from all other areas.
It is all pointless speculation on my behalf anyway, because the new contract is in place for both existing staff and new recruits and going on strike again is most definitely not going to change that.
Wirbelsturm,
Excellent post.
It is always good to be reminded of the FACTS, especially when presented clearly, after so long swimming through muddy waters.
Like you I have not experienced any open hostility in the last year. That said, it is very evident that everyone is very guarded. guarded in what they say and in what they do.
Very few people are willing to discuss the issues, under the misguided view that any expression of a different view will result in some kind of disciplinery action. I believe this is very unhealthy as there is now a mass of ill-informed and festering ideas. On the occasions that crew have talked it has been refreshing when people have expressed their views and realised that it was perfectly acceptable to discuss the matter like adults.
If the rumours are to be believed (regarding a major split of views by bassa reps) maybe common sense will prevail after all. As has been stated many times, this dispute cannot be resolved when the bitter meglomaniac DH is involved, nor when LM keeps spouting!
Even if the 'moderate' (is there such a thing) bassa reps start to hold sway, it will still be important that BA are seen to have negated the excessive influence that bassa has wealded over the cabin crew community.
Excellent post.
It is always good to be reminded of the FACTS, especially when presented clearly, after so long swimming through muddy waters.
Like you I have not experienced any open hostility in the last year. That said, it is very evident that everyone is very guarded. guarded in what they say and in what they do.
Very few people are willing to discuss the issues, under the misguided view that any expression of a different view will result in some kind of disciplinery action. I believe this is very unhealthy as there is now a mass of ill-informed and festering ideas. On the occasions that crew have talked it has been refreshing when people have expressed their views and realised that it was perfectly acceptable to discuss the matter like adults.
If the rumours are to be believed (regarding a major split of views by bassa reps) maybe common sense will prevail after all. As has been stated many times, this dispute cannot be resolved when the bitter meglomaniac DH is involved, nor when LM keeps spouting!
Even if the 'moderate' (is there such a thing) bassa reps start to hold sway, it will still be important that BA are seen to have negated the excessive influence that bassa has wealded over the cabin crew community.
An illuminating snippet from Business Traveller - corporate travel information, city guides, flight reservations... - Business Traveller -
Len was less than inspiring on Radio 5 today! He was even repeatedly referring to the PCCC as the "PCC". If he can't remember basic details like that, then he is unlikely to be able to grasp much else.
VintageKrug - 02/02/2011 07:51 GMT
To be fair to BASSA they have 28 days to announce IA after the ballot date, so could keep us waiting until mid Feb.
However, it appears BASSA received some very uncomfortable legal advice from Unite over the weekend.
Legal advice apparently suggests that:
1. The ballot was flawed (a material number on non-BASSA members ballotted, and membership records in disarray, subcontracted out by the BASSA rep tasked with - and paid for - maintaining those records).
2. Any action would be "unprotected" for cabin crew, as evidence on BASSA's own site clearly identified the current action with previous action. BASSA has never informed its membership of the risks of unprotected action.
3. Unite itself could potentially be held liable for costs incurred by BA during the dispute....a significant sum and one which could bankrupt Unite as its finances are not as healthy as they once were.
There are also concerns elsewhere that there is no transparency as to how BASSA's income has been accounted for; with over £2m annual dues being received by BASSA at its high point, this should be of significant concern to BASSA members.
Radio 5 at 10am seems to be holding an interview which may be of interest.
In order to settle, there would have to be a negotiated settlement, and it may well be the case that further talks with Unite, in light of this legal advice, have forced a settlement.
Well founded speculation at this point, but you should ask the nurse to keep the Day Room telly tuned to Sky News today!
This dispute does indeed seem to be entering its final days.
To be fair to BASSA they have 28 days to announce IA after the ballot date, so could keep us waiting until mid Feb.
However, it appears BASSA received some very uncomfortable legal advice from Unite over the weekend.
Legal advice apparently suggests that:
1. The ballot was flawed (a material number on non-BASSA members ballotted, and membership records in disarray, subcontracted out by the BASSA rep tasked with - and paid for - maintaining those records).
2. Any action would be "unprotected" for cabin crew, as evidence on BASSA's own site clearly identified the current action with previous action. BASSA has never informed its membership of the risks of unprotected action.
3. Unite itself could potentially be held liable for costs incurred by BA during the dispute....a significant sum and one which could bankrupt Unite as its finances are not as healthy as they once were.
There are also concerns elsewhere that there is no transparency as to how BASSA's income has been accounted for; with over £2m annual dues being received by BASSA at its high point, this should be of significant concern to BASSA members.
Radio 5 at 10am seems to be holding an interview which may be of interest.
In order to settle, there would have to be a negotiated settlement, and it may well be the case that further talks with Unite, in light of this legal advice, have forced a settlement.
Well founded speculation at this point, but you should ask the nurse to keep the Day Room telly tuned to Sky News today!
This dispute does indeed seem to be entering its final days.
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As far as I am bassa are not negotiating for mixed fleet so that point is also irrelevant.
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Len's Radio 5 Interview
Have to say that Radio 5 political debate isn't my thing and it was boring stuff for the most part so I didn't hear the entire interview what with child supervision as well as housework and Jeremy Kyle (thank God for ITV 2 +1).
Bassa couldn't even spell McLuskey on their newsletter encouraging us to vote for him (came in with 17% of the electorate).
Len McLuskey can't even read out "PCCC" so he really hasn't done much more studying and reading up than I did for Physics O Level.
You know what? Go on strike, believe the usual tripe that you are "protected" and your Staff Travel will be "back in 5 minutes" and that you are a "United Majority" blah, blah, blah. Nobody cares !
We have never heard from one single Rep from Bassa , at any time in the last two years, disagreeing in any shape or form with either of the Bassa leaders or any of the Unite Secretaries even though they constantly contradicted each other and oneself.
Bassa couldn't even spell McLuskey on their newsletter encouraging us to vote for him (came in with 17% of the electorate).
Len McLuskey can't even read out "PCCC" so he really hasn't done much more studying and reading up than I did for Physics O Level.
You know what? Go on strike, believe the usual tripe that you are "protected" and your Staff Travel will be "back in 5 minutes" and that you are a "United Majority" blah, blah, blah. Nobody cares !
We have never heard from one single Rep from Bassa , at any time in the last two years, disagreeing in any shape or form with either of the Bassa leaders or any of the Unite Secretaries even though they constantly contradicted each other and oneself.
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I have never worked in such a dreadful atmosphere
The reason I ask is because the dreadful atmosphere (which I am pleased to say is lifting) has mostly been created by militant individuals who can't respect the fact that other people might have a different opinion.
Individuals have been named and shamed publicly, threats to kidnap their children, cars scratched, frozen out by the rest of the crew, to name but a few.
Don't get me wrong, there are guilty parties in both camps but to point the blame solely at the flight crew is, in my opinion, wrong.
How many CC have been sacked or suspended for bullying and harassment compared to individuals in other areas in relation to this dispute?
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1. The ballot was flawed (a material number on non-BASSA members ballotted, and membership records in disarray, subcontracted out by the BASSA rep tasked with - and paid for - maintaining those records).
it will still be important that BA are seen to have negated the excessive influence that bassa has wealded over the cabin crew community.
As I said in my post - what a nasty group of co-workers I have found myself working with especially many who post on here.
Last edited by ottergirl; 2nd Feb 2011 at 12:23.
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Len McCluskey on BBC Radio 5 today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00y2098/Victoria_Derbyshire_02_02_2011/
A few interesting points made by Len:
1. Refusing to answer PCCC's "John" about what the strikes have achieved.
2. Making foundless accusations about the PCCC being set up my BA managers. No proof offered of this but he contradicts this claim by saying "we've been trying to find out who they are" and "we don't know who they are". Er, how do you KNOW they're BA lackeys then Len?
3. Claiming that 78% of Cabin Crew voted to strike. That'll be 78% of returned papers then....or 5751 strike votes from 13,000 crew or 44% eh Len?
4. 39m20s in Len acknowledges that there may be a slight hitch (possibly explaining why no strike dates called?) as BA have challenged the legality of their ballot...again.
Groundhog Strike!
5. Calling for vague resolutions to the dispute such as respect (or words to that effect) but basically calling for none of the imposed changes (crew complements, Mixed Fleet etc) to be removed. So what ARE you striking over Len? What will make this all go away? I don't think he had a clue.
6. Saying that bullying and intimidation were rife within BA (all of it, not just cabin crew) but hurling false accusations (which would invite bullying) at PCCC's John and refusing to accept that a pilot could ever be bullied, harassed or intimidated by a cabin crew member (because we're mainly women!?!?). So it's only bullying and harassment when it's direct at his minions...or something.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00y2098/Victoria_Derbyshire_02_02_2011/
A few interesting points made by Len:
1. Refusing to answer PCCC's "John" about what the strikes have achieved.
2. Making foundless accusations about the PCCC being set up my BA managers. No proof offered of this but he contradicts this claim by saying "we've been trying to find out who they are" and "we don't know who they are". Er, how do you KNOW they're BA lackeys then Len?
3. Claiming that 78% of Cabin Crew voted to strike. That'll be 78% of returned papers then....or 5751 strike votes from 13,000 crew or 44% eh Len?
4. 39m20s in Len acknowledges that there may be a slight hitch (possibly explaining why no strike dates called?) as BA have challenged the legality of their ballot...again.
Groundhog Strike!5. Calling for vague resolutions to the dispute such as respect (or words to that effect) but basically calling for none of the imposed changes (crew complements, Mixed Fleet etc) to be removed. So what ARE you striking over Len? What will make this all go away? I don't think he had a clue.
6. Saying that bullying and intimidation were rife within BA (all of it, not just cabin crew) but hurling false accusations (which would invite bullying) at PCCC's John and refusing to accept that a pilot could ever be bullied, harassed or intimidated by a cabin crew member (because we're mainly women!?!?). So it's only bullying and harassment when it's direct at his minions...or something.
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Information from BA
BA released this statement and documents on 28 January 2011.
"If you took strike action during 2010 you may have been part of a collective or individual complaint about the removal of staff travel and pay deductions for those who did not report for duty during a strike period.
"Our response to Unite has already been made available to the union to share with you."
A revised formal offer to Unite
http://freepdfhosting.com/fb0fde4f72.pdf
Complaints about withdrawal of pay and staff travel relating to sickness
http://freepdfhosting.com/3382e93952.pdf
Complaints regarding withdrawal staff travel and pay
http://freepdfhosting.com/7a5b9147a5.pdf
"If you took strike action during 2010 you may have been part of a collective or individual complaint about the removal of staff travel and pay deductions for those who did not report for duty during a strike period.
"Our response to Unite has already been made available to the union to share with you."
A revised formal offer to Unite
http://freepdfhosting.com/fb0fde4f72.pdf
Complaints about withdrawal of pay and staff travel relating to sickness
http://freepdfhosting.com/3382e93952.pdf
Complaints regarding withdrawal staff travel and pay
http://freepdfhosting.com/7a5b9147a5.pdf
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The IFCE re-organisation has been announced. Some changes in terms of BF's direct reports at LHR.
Head of Worldwide Fleet is new to IFCE from elsewhere within BA.
The Head of Mixed Fleet has now also got Eurofleet and VCC in her remit. It has been stressed that although there is one manager running both Mixed Fleet and Eurofleet, the two are not being combined.
(Views above are my own and not those of my employer)
Head of Worldwide Fleet is new to IFCE from elsewhere within BA.
The Head of Mixed Fleet has now also got Eurofleet and VCC in her remit. It has been stressed that although there is one manager running both Mixed Fleet and Eurofleet, the two are not being combined.
(Views above are my own and not those of my employer)
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Another change is that Mike Grimes is Head of IFCE Gatwick Fleet and reports to Silla Maizey (Managing Director of Gatwick). So, responsibility for the fleets is now split: Worlwide Fleet, Eurofleet, Mixed Fleet and VCC with Bill Francis at LHR, Gatwick Fleet with Grimes at LGW.
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At work today my manager told me that Bassa had taken advise from Queens Counsel because Willie Walsh had sent them a letter questioning the linking in the ballot with issues in the previous strike. All our managers were told that the strike is unlikely to go ahead but that if Bassa re-ballot the earliest strike would be April.
What amazes me, the most, is that after making such a mess of the ballot in the past, that Bassa or Unite did not check out Queens Counsel advise before sending out the ballots!!
If I were a Bassa member I would be furious.
What amazes me, the most, is that after making such a mess of the ballot in the past, that Bassa or Unite did not check out Queens Counsel advise before sending out the ballots!!
If I were a Bassa member I would be furious.
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BA denies legal challenge to latest Unite ballot