British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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The Charter of Fundamental Rights, and the European Convention on Human Rights are not the same thing. The 1998 Human Rights Act gives effect to the ECoHR in the UK courts and remedy to claimants without the need to go dircetly to the ECHR, (European Court of Human Rights.)
There is no legislation offering protection for discrimination against strikers in the UK, there has been no other case challenge of discrimination in the UK. If Unite feel it to be appropriate they can take a case to the UK courts under the HRA stating that the wider view of Article 11 has been breached. If in agreement a UK Judge cannot change the law, at the most they can issue a 'declaration of incompatibility'. The requirement then is for Parliament to remove the incompatibility.
I am suprised that BASSA felt the staff travel issue could be so easily handled. But the situation isn't lost, although it would be a long winded process, (which also leaves BA in the clear as it has acted legally in accordance with UK law).
The best hope is that Walsh returns the perk.
There is no legislation offering protection for discrimination against strikers in the UK, there has been no other case challenge of discrimination in the UK. If Unite feel it to be appropriate they can take a case to the UK courts under the HRA stating that the wider view of Article 11 has been breached. If in agreement a UK Judge cannot change the law, at the most they can issue a 'declaration of incompatibility'. The requirement then is for Parliament to remove the incompatibility.
I am suprised that BASSA felt the staff travel issue could be so easily handled. But the situation isn't lost, although it would be a long winded process, (which also leaves BA in the clear as it has acted legally in accordance with UK law).
The best hope is that Walsh returns the perk.
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I think I get your position, (old and a slow learner) but my point a while back was for no detriment for union activities, which is a UK civil law, not a discrimination right within the UK. That is why I would test it through tribunal. But their is probably a reason why Unite are not doing this, which probably means that their legal advice which is vastly superior to what I understand of the law, is saying don't do it.
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Litebulbs, what you and everyone else droning on about staff travel are missing is that you are NOT being discriminated against because you went on strike. You are suffering the CONSEQUENCES of going on strike.
You were informed quite clearly what would happen if you withdrew your labour. Not one single striker can claim that they were unaware of the consequences. Yet you still chose to go on strike.
Now whether you chose not to believe your employer, or you chose to continue believing the BASSA propaganda, is something neither I nor I suspect most other BA employees give a damn about. The fact is you were warned, and it has happened. Stop whingeing and get your union to actually do something to make your lives better, not worse.
They don't seem to have managed to do much of that recently.
You were informed quite clearly what would happen if you withdrew your labour. Not one single striker can claim that they were unaware of the consequences. Yet you still chose to go on strike.
Now whether you chose not to believe your employer, or you chose to continue believing the BASSA propaganda, is something neither I nor I suspect most other BA employees give a damn about. The fact is you were warned, and it has happened. Stop whingeing and get your union to actually do something to make your lives better, not worse.
They don't seem to have managed to do much of that recently.
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Commenting, rather than droning. Again, can you show me where it says you can punish somebody for taking protected industrial action?
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Miss M
As you are fairly adept at making frank (sometimes curt) statements, I hope that you are able to accept some frank talking in return.
You make statements that quite frankly have little bearing on reality, and are nothing more than BASSA soundbites: "imposition" "WW is out to get the unions" "attack on our T&Cs" "staff travel".
To clarify, here are the FACTS:
No-one has ever been told that they could use ST to get to work. It is part of our T&C's that we must be able to get to work within 1 and half hours. If you do commute, it is expected that you would stay within the airport area prior to operating.
You are happy to blame non-union members for coming to work, people who voted yes for coming to work, VCC and anyone else who backs BA. You then claim that you "were not told about the October offer" and appear now to be blaming your beloved BASSA about this. Well, you were told MissM. We were all sent an email from BF on the 23 Oct 2009 entitled: "Message from Bill Francis to all crew: important news on our package of changes in IFCE". If you chose not to read your BA emails, which I would assume is a requirement of our job, then you only have yourself to blame.
You also like to criticise the Professional Cabin Crew Council, yet it is thanks to the PCCC that cabin crew have been made aware of what this community has lost. Not many people were aware of the shares/bonus/free ticket option and the PCCC has highlighted that fact. Many cabin crew are very grateful for it - and it seems that you yourself would have taken it, had you been aware of it. Perhaps if the PCCC had been in existence last October, we would have all been better off.
You criticise the PCCC for staying anonymous. Yet it was a BASSA rep who set up a porn site with the same name as ours. BASSA militants, who you support, have sent hate mail to people. Cabin crew have had their cars marked with S in the car park, and some militants are choosing to ignore non-strikers on trips (as reported on here). Cabin crew who have spoken out on other forums have been banned and ostracised. If it weren't for the despicable behaviour of BASSA, we would not have to remain anonymous. Do you feel proud that your Union behave like that?
You now state that IF Staff Travel were to be returned, you would accept the offer. You are therefore saying that you would now be willing to accept an offer that is WORSE than the one you went on strike for, knowing full well that you would lose your staff travel if you did strike.
So let me summarise:
You and your fellow strikers have effectively been on strike for nothing. You and your fellow strikers have cost this company millions. You and your fellow strikers have cost our entire cabin crew community the opportunity of having a share scheme, bonuses, and an extra free ticket. And most despicable of all, you and your fellow strikers have cost our cabin crew community our good name which will take years to re-instate.
But with this in mind, you are still intent on going on strike.
Isn't it about time that you stopped blaming everyone else MissM and started taking responsibility for the damaging part that BASSA and the strikers have played in this sorry affair? Do you not yet realise that if you do strike again, it will be you and only you that loses out? Or do you intend to simply keep your head in the sand, and carry on blaming everyone else?
As you are fairly adept at making frank (sometimes curt) statements, I hope that you are able to accept some frank talking in return.
You make statements that quite frankly have little bearing on reality, and are nothing more than BASSA soundbites: "imposition" "WW is out to get the unions" "attack on our T&Cs" "staff travel".
To clarify, here are the FACTS:
No-one has ever been told that they could use ST to get to work. It is part of our T&C's that we must be able to get to work within 1 and half hours. If you do commute, it is expected that you would stay within the airport area prior to operating.
You are happy to blame non-union members for coming to work, people who voted yes for coming to work, VCC and anyone else who backs BA. You then claim that you "were not told about the October offer" and appear now to be blaming your beloved BASSA about this. Well, you were told MissM. We were all sent an email from BF on the 23 Oct 2009 entitled: "Message from Bill Francis to all crew: important news on our package of changes in IFCE". If you chose not to read your BA emails, which I would assume is a requirement of our job, then you only have yourself to blame.
You also like to criticise the Professional Cabin Crew Council, yet it is thanks to the PCCC that cabin crew have been made aware of what this community has lost. Not many people were aware of the shares/bonus/free ticket option and the PCCC has highlighted that fact. Many cabin crew are very grateful for it - and it seems that you yourself would have taken it, had you been aware of it. Perhaps if the PCCC had been in existence last October, we would have all been better off.
You criticise the PCCC for staying anonymous. Yet it was a BASSA rep who set up a porn site with the same name as ours. BASSA militants, who you support, have sent hate mail to people. Cabin crew have had their cars marked with S in the car park, and some militants are choosing to ignore non-strikers on trips (as reported on here). Cabin crew who have spoken out on other forums have been banned and ostracised. If it weren't for the despicable behaviour of BASSA, we would not have to remain anonymous. Do you feel proud that your Union behave like that?
You now state that IF Staff Travel were to be returned, you would accept the offer. You are therefore saying that you would now be willing to accept an offer that is WORSE than the one you went on strike for, knowing full well that you would lose your staff travel if you did strike.
So let me summarise:
You and your fellow strikers have effectively been on strike for nothing. You and your fellow strikers have cost this company millions. You and your fellow strikers have cost our entire cabin crew community the opportunity of having a share scheme, bonuses, and an extra free ticket. And most despicable of all, you and your fellow strikers have cost our cabin crew community our good name which will take years to re-instate.
But with this in mind, you are still intent on going on strike.
Isn't it about time that you stopped blaming everyone else MissM and started taking responsibility for the damaging part that BASSA and the strikers have played in this sorry affair? Do you not yet realise that if you do strike again, it will be you and only you that loses out? Or do you intend to simply keep your head in the sand, and carry on blaming everyone else?
Last edited by HiFlyer14; 21st Jun 2010 at 10:26.
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"Commenting, rather than droning. Again, can you show me where it says you can punish somebody for taking protected industrial action?"
Again, Litebulb, you are missing the point. You are not being punished, you are simply suffering the consequences of taking a course of action of whose consequences you were well aware. Nothing underhand or discriminatory. You made a choice, this is what you were told would happen. Live with it.
Again, Litebulb, you are missing the point. You are not being punished, you are simply suffering the consequences of taking a course of action of whose consequences you were well aware. Nothing underhand or discriminatory. You made a choice, this is what you were told would happen. Live with it.
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I personally don't agree with the strike, and I hope ST isn't returned for a while at least, but to state that they were warned, and as such the company can carry out what they have threatened doesn't make it legal.
There is no doubt that strikers have been punished for taking IA, but until this is challenged in the courts no-one really knows whether this is legal action taken by the company or not.
Runway vacated
Would you be willing to bet your house on the fact the company are legally in the right? I know I wouldn't (even though I hope BA is).
There is no doubt that strikers have been punished for taking IA, but until this is challenged in the courts no-one really knows whether this is legal action taken by the company or not.
Runway vacated
Would you be willing to bet your house on the fact the company are legally in the right? I know I wouldn't (even though I hope BA is).
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There is no doubt that strikers have been punished for taking IA, but until this is challenged in the courts no-one really knows whether this is legal action taken by the company or not.
I would be banging on BASSA's door asking them why they sent me a text before the strike saying "Staff travel will be returned within 5 minutes" and yet, 3 months later, they still haven't pursued it through the courts. Why ever not?
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For those who have asked - No, Litebulbs is not cabin crew, or serving BA staff, or based at LHR. However, he/she is employed by an airline as an engineer and is therefore eligible to contribute to this thread.
HiFlyer
It is part of our T&C's that we must be able to get to work within 1 and half hours. If you do commute, it is expected that you would stay within the airport area prior to operating.
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Gatbus:
"Would you be willing to bet your house on the fact the company are legally in the right? I know I wouldn't (even though I hope BA is)."
Luckily I don't have to as I am represented by a competent (and emotionally stable) union. I also read my contract when I was initially offered a job with BA and understood the scope of my own responsibilities and liabilities.
Whilst I would not like to swap places with those who have been so badly (mis)led by BASSA I am afraid that my sympathy for them is zero.
"Would you be willing to bet your house on the fact the company are legally in the right? I know I wouldn't (even though I hope BA is)."
Luckily I don't have to as I am represented by a competent (and emotionally stable) union. I also read my contract when I was initially offered a job with BA and understood the scope of my own responsibilities and liabilities.
Whilst I would not like to swap places with those who have been so badly (mis)led by BASSA I am afraid that my sympathy for them is zero.
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As pointed out by Hand Solo, JPMs refer:
Additionally during the cabin crew recruitment process, we are asked to sign a form confirming this, and other factors, such as adherence to uniform standards, no visible tattoos, etc.
It may not specifically be stated in our contracts, but it is something we have agreed to, albeit many will undoubtedly be unaware of it!!
1.16.24.3.2
If the journey time from home to normal departure airfield is usually in excess of 1 1/2 hours, crew members should make arrangements for temporary accomodation nearer to base.
If the journey time from home to normal departure airfield is usually in excess of 1 1/2 hours, crew members should make arrangements for temporary accomodation nearer to base.
It may not specifically be stated in our contracts, but it is something we have agreed to, albeit many will undoubtedly be unaware of it!!
Last edited by HiFlyer14; 21st Jun 2010 at 11:08.
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The Charter of Fundamental Rights, and the European Convention on Human Rights are not the same thing. The 1998 Human Rights Act gives effect to the ECoHR in the UK courts and remedy to claimants without the need to go dircetly to the ECHR, (European Court of Human Rights.)
There is no legislation offering protection for discrimination against strikers in the UK, there has been no other case challenge of discrimination in the UK. If Unite feel it to be appropriate they can take a case to the UK courts under the HRA stating that the wider view of Article 11 has been breached. If in agreement a UK Judge cannot change the law, at the most they can issue a 'declaration of incompatibility'. The requirement then is for Parliament to remove the incompatibility.
I am suprised that BASSA felt the staff travel issue could be so easily handled. But the situation isn't lost, although it would be a long winded process, (which also leaves BA in the clear as it has acted legally in accordance with UK law).
The best hope is that Walsh returns the perk.
There is no legislation offering protection for discrimination against strikers in the UK, there has been no other case challenge of discrimination in the UK. If Unite feel it to be appropriate they can take a case to the UK courts under the HRA stating that the wider view of Article 11 has been breached. If in agreement a UK Judge cannot change the law, at the most they can issue a 'declaration of incompatibility'. The requirement then is for Parliament to remove the incompatibility.
I am suprised that BASSA felt the staff travel issue could be so easily handled. But the situation isn't lost, although it would be a long winded process, (which also leaves BA in the clear as it has acted legally in accordance with UK law).
The best hope is that Walsh returns the perk.
The Labour Party is no longer in power and the new coalition government will not be receptive to Unite's demands in this respect; quite the contrary.
Public opinion, in the form of every other worker throughout the United Kingdom, is already against the BA cabin crew strike. The vast majority of British workers do not enjoy such a privilege, nor anything remotely similar. Their thinking is "why should they have such privileges when we are working harder than we did under Labour, paying more taxes and getting less in return from central government?"
BASSA's threats to strike over Christmas, and the recent actual strikes, have done absolutely nothing to endear BASSA to anybody other than itself. Even the Unite leadership has expressed its frustration in dealing with BASSA.
Publicly pursuing the return of staff travel privileges, especially after the CEO warned strikers on at least two occasions that they would be lost if employees went out on strike, would be sheer folly and a major loss of money taken straight from BASSA members' pockets that would line the pockets of BASSA's legal advisors.
And let's face it: those "advisors" have not given BASSA good counsel up to now.
albeit many will undoubtedly be unaware of it!!
JPMs do not specify that BA crew must live within 1 1/2 hours of base or that our homes must be within 1 1/2 hrs of base.
If such a caveat is genuinely in Cabin Crew contracts then an awful lot of crew at BA are at risk (and not just those who use Staff Travel
)......
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I think the JPM extract quoted by HiFlyer would cover things wiggy. Claiming otherwise is to indulge in the kind of pointless semantics that BASSA and Litebulbs like to indulge in.
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Wiggy, read at least the current page before you post!
And when you do post, don´t merely stick your fingers in your ears and your tongue out your mouth and go lalalalalalala.
This is not a kindergarten, we´re trying to run a discussion thread here.
Read => digest => react in an adult fashion.
In that order.
And when you do post, don´t merely stick your fingers in your ears and your tongue out your mouth and go lalalalalalala.
This is not a kindergarten, we´re trying to run a discussion thread here.
Read => digest => react in an adult fashion.
In that order.
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Posted by HiFlyer14
It may not specifically be stated in our contracts, but it is something we have agreed to, albeit many will undoubtedly be unaware of it!!
It may not specifically be stated in our contracts, but it is something we have agreed to, albeit many will undoubtedly be unaware of it!!
Posted by Wiggy
I'm still confused as to what is is that we are supposed to be aware of.
I'm still confused as to what is is that we are supposed to be aware of.
I think the referece is that some crew are not aware that they have an hour and a half to get to work, regardless of commuting from abroad or in the UK. On Eurofleet, we are sometimes given what is known as a 'ring in' when no trips are available in the system. However, if and when you ring in say it's a 14:00 ring in, then you have two hours to get yourself to work if you are required to operate should BA require you to do so. Of course, this would equally be a problem for someone living in Durham or in Italy.
In balance, you make a fair and valid point.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 21st Jun 2010 at 14:09. Reason: Change 1 hour 30 to 2 hours for a 'ring in' to get to work