Market Rate for cabin crew

[Betty girl]

Your figures are way out when you guess the figures!

Purser E/F 22 years with BA 75% £28,159.94
If you pro rata that it comes out at £35,000

almost 20,000 less than your first guess and 10,000 less than your second.
Just don't guess.

[Tiramisu]

123Breath,
Agree with Betty Girl and numberfteenplease, your figures are off the mark. My salary was quoted directly from my payslip.

[TopBunk]

Purser E/F 22 years with BA 75% £28,159.94
If you pro rata that it comes out at £35,000

To be pedantic it doesn't, it comes out as £37,500+.

You need to add 1/3rd of the £28,160 to it to get the full time figure.

[jetset lady]

Hmmm...

Purser LGW F/T (but admittedly only 5 yrs seniority)

March 2010 - £18,424
March 2009 - £18,072

[Betty girl]

Ok agree Top Bunk. But still way off the guess.

[numberfifteenplease]

123Breath

BA CSD old contract 35 years' seniority = £85,000 (pay slip that I've seen, corrected for RPI increases)

Why are you correcting for RPI increases?

In 2001 the average cost of a BA Cabin Crew member was £25,000 per annum.

In 2009 the average cost to BA of a Cabin Crew member was £31,400 per annum.

Over the same period RPI increase was 24%. Cabin Crew received an 'average' pay increase of 25.6%. An increase in pay v RPI over the period of 1.6%.

The expenditure total is for the salaries and allowances of all employees. Included are gross salary (before deduction of income tax, pension social welfare and voluntary payments), overtime pay, sales commissions, flying pay and subsistence allowances, (such as cost of living allowances, station and overseas allowances) and all crew hourly flight allowances (i.e. those in excess of travel and incidental expenses).

This data is not a 'guess' but taken from the CAA website. Over the same period another group of BA employees received 837% more of a pay increase then BA Cabin Crew. Any ideas which department?

[123breath]

I adjusted for RPI increases to illustrate what the salary equates to in todays money......a common practice in accountancy.

The CAA 'average cost' figures that you refer to, whilst having some relevance in relation to other airlines (double! Glad to see you recognize the accuracy of these figures), bears no relation to the figure I used. You might have an even spread of salaries between £29,000 and £31,000 and find the average is £30,000, or equally an uneven spread between £25,000 and £85,000 giving an average of £30,000.

The fact that in BA some salaries are at a much higher level than the average, as has already been proved on this thread, illustrates an unfairness in the salary structure that may well be a reason for the current unrest.

[langtoftlad]

123Breath as you seem to be the dog with a bone on this - perhaps you'd like to reveal your earnings ?

[numberfifteenplease]

123Breath

The CAA 'average cost' figures that you refer to, whilst having some relevance in relation to other airlines (double!), bears no relation to the figure I used.

You are right, the CAA figures have no relevance to the figures you used because they are genuine figures - not some figure allegedly seen on a payslip some years ago.

I adjusted for RPI increases to illustrate what the salary equates to in todays money......a common practice in accountancy.

Thank god then that you are not an accountant, the salary equates to whatever the salary is - irrespective of RPI increases.

The fact that in BA some salaries are at a much higher level than the average, as has already been proved on this thread, illustrates an unfairness in the salary structure that may well be a reason for the current unrest.

What?????? How can the salary structure have anything to do with the current dispute?????

Of course some salaries will be higher than the average, just like some salaries will be lower than the average!!!

It was you who started to throw around wildly exaggerated salary numbers on a spurious claim that you had 'seen' a wage slip a few years back - a claim I might add that you cannot substantiate.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, your guesstimates are way off the mark and nowhere near the real figures of Cabin Crew remuneration that you and many others think Cabin Crew in British Airways receive.

[123breath]

Then perhaps this thread has done you a service? I will now confess that I did think that your salaries were slightly higher than you now claim. It was hard to get anyone from BA to come forward with what they earn, and so I will now admit I was deliberately provocative in my initial posts. For that, I apologize.

But it worked, and the numbers are slowly coming out, so well done me.

You ask what the current salary structure has to do with the current dispute....well clearly there are a lot of cabin crew who feel that they are not paid an excessive salary, and that may be true. But there are some who are definitely paid well over the going rate, and I would suggest they they are the ones causing most of the trouble, dragging the others along with them. Understandable to a degree, they have a lot to lose.

My salary has nothing to do with this thread. I will however point out that 'pro-rata' I am paid less than my Virgin flight crew counterparts. Whilst on paper I am paid approximately 15% more than them, I am contracted to fly 900 hours a year against their 750 hours, a 20% difference. In crude terms, they are paid 5% more than me. The CAA figures do not make that distinction, but it is fact. According to those CAA figures BA cabin crew cost double Virgins as I recall......do you work twice as hard? Remember, this thread is entitled 'Market rate....'

You're right too in that I cannot prove that I saw what I saw on that pay slip 6 years ago.......but then I don't have to.

[123breath]

Latest

BA main crew post '97 contract 3 years' seniority = £19,000 (quoted)
BA main crew post '97 contract 10 years' seniority
BA main crew old contract 15 years' seniority
BA main crew old contract 20+ years' seniority = £37,000 (quoted)
BA LGW purser post '97 5 years seniority = £18,500 (quoted)
BA purser old contract 15 years' seniority
BA purser old contract Euro Fleet 22 years' seniority = £37,500 (quoted)
BA purser old contract 25 years' seniority = £45,000 (educated guess. Pressumably pursers WW are paid more than main crew WW with same seniority?)
BA purser old contract 35 years' seniority
BA CSD old contract 15 years' seniority
BA CSD old contract 23 years' seniority = £51,500 (quoted, pro-rata from 75%)
BA CSD old contract Euro Fleet 26 years' seniority = £48,600 (quoted)
BA CSD old contract 35 years' seniority = £85,000 (pay slip that I've seen, corrected for RPI increases)

Could someone please fill in the gaps?

[Bunk Monitor]

123, please take off the £85k wage it doesn't exist. It would imply that the CSD has a basic of over £65k a year and they don't.

[123breath]

A year ago you and your colleagues were denying that the salaries above existed, in the face of media scrutiny, and yet now you admit to earning up to twice the national average salary. Who knows, the CSD who's pay packet I saw might step forward soon.

[numberfifteenplease]

123Breath

What is your agenda?

The title of this thread is about Market Rate salaries for Cabin Crew - you are attempting to hijack it and turn it into a "lets bash BA Cabin Crew who have worked for over 20 odd years for BA and earn good money"

A year ago you and your colleagues were denying that the salaries above existed, in the face of media scrutiny, and yet now you admit to earning up to twice the national average salary.

Nobody ever denied that the salaries existed - You will find that it was those Cabin Crew who where on less than the figures quoted by BA that said that.

And for your information the average salary in the London area is £32,604 - the UK average is £25,428.

You came on this thread with a half baked story of a BA CSD who 6 years ago according to you, earned £75,000 - when your story has been shown to have no substance you now go on about National Averages - what are you on about - I am failing to see your point. In fact what is your point?

Who knows, the CSD who's pay packet I saw might step forward soon.

He won't step forward because he doesn't exist

BA main crew post '97 contract 3 years' seniority = £19,000 (quoted)
BA main crew old contract 20+ years' seniority = £37,000 (quoted)
BA LGW purser post '97 5 years seniority = £18,500 (quoted)
BA purser old contract Euro Fleet 22 years' seniority = £37,500 (quoted)

As you can see from your own table - the majority of Cabin Crew are earning less than the National Average wage and far less than the average for London.

[langtoftlad]

123Breath, I fully respect your right to keep your earnings to yourself - so I'll make an "educated guess" that it's six figures...

I also won't quote an actual figure - but will point out that I earned 12.5% less in 2009/10 than I did in 2006/07... relevance... just your RPI assumptions are incorrect, as is your educated guess of £45k for a Purser 25years... way off.
£85k CSD - fantasy.

Whatever we all earn after many years of employment is not really relevant is it? I don't think anyone disagrees that market rate for any employee is less now than it once was. And comparing salaries negotiated & agreed 25 years ago does not reflect the more realistic "market rate" of post '97 or SFG contracts.
Surely it is only to be expected that employees will do all that they can to protect the T&C's they agreed to? Especially when attacks on those agreements are not emulated by those at the top. Even if those efforts ultimately fail.
BALPA tried to resist Open Skies and will no doubt try to resist the introduction of 'Cruise Pilots'. Why? To protect the earnings of their current membership.

[ottergirl]

Eurofleet CSD 75%
23 years seniority of service, 5 as CSD

2010 - £28, 126
2009 - £29, 927
2008 - £32, 900

Going down!! In fact I have to go back to when I was a purser in 2005 to earn the same as I did this year.

[yadayada]

i do not doubt that a full time ba csd who joined in 1969 and worked for 35 years is on a decent wage.

however, if you saw that payslip, i put it to you that it is likely it was artificially inflated somehow, with perhaps a large profitshare bonus, or some ground duty payment or something.
the top of the csd payscale is way less than 50 grand. allowances, while significant, are nothing like a quarter of that.

we are talking about someone who probably joined boac and definately worked ba before privatisation.

and to use their wage as part of a market rate comparison is ridiculous.

[tomkins]

123breath
it would seem that you have managed to take this thread way off track.When I posted this thread initially it was in order to get an idea of current market rates, pay, terms and conditions for crew who have started flying in the last couple of years , thus getting an idea of what the proposed offer of market rate plus 10% that was promised for new fleet,might represent.
Bill Francis said that it would be financially interesting for LGW crew to move over to the new fleet,so I was trying to find out scales on which they would base new fleet pay terms on.Nowhere do I see anything that would make it a profitable venture for LGW crew to move to the new fleet.What is on offer is certainly not MR plus 10%.

[123breath]

In summary

Numberfifteeplease -

My agenda is to bring to light the salaries paid to BA cabin crew in the context of the market rate. I thought I had made that very clear. It so turns out that those salaries are slightly less than I thought, so you should be pleased to have made that point. You say it was the lower earners amongst cabin crew that were most vocal in their protests, which is true, as no one from the higher earning community spoke up at the time. To do so would have highlighted their much higher salaries in the public eye. This thread has brought them out of the woodwork.

I didn’t say that CSD earned £75,000, I said £72,000. You seem upset that I have increased this figure in line with RPI, and so I will stop doing that, just to please you. He was paid £72,000 in the year 2004, and I would imagine he has retired by now. Could it be that he was one of those amongst you that were creaming off the best trips by way of a neat little arrangement with your schedulers? That might explain it perhaps. I’m sure you’re aware of what went on, although perhaps we shouldn’t stray from the current topic.

I once heard it said that, when taken as a group, the top third of cabin crew in BA earn twice as much as the bottom two thirds. Willie Walsh has obviously decided to sort that anomaly out, in line with his duties as CEO of BA. In light of Bassa’s behavior in recent years I would suggest that he and previous CEO’s have been extremely patient, forgiving, and, dare I say it......weak, in their dealings with Bassa. One might say Bassa got too big for its boots. Well, surprise, that appears to have changed now.

langtofllad -

This is not about my salary, but to satisfy your curiosity, the market rate for a senior longhaul captain is indeed six figures.......and I refer you to my previous posts about the market rate. I am paid the market rate. In fact slightly less in real terms, in comparison with my Virgin colleagues. Captains in certain other airlines around the world have salaries significantly higher than mine, with much better perks, but such is life.

How far off is my guess of £45,000 for a purser, when a main crew member with a similar seniority has openly said that he/she was paid £37,000 last year? You say it’s ‘way off’. Define ‘way off’ if you would.

You ask whether what we earn after many years of employment is relevant. Of course it is, especially when competing in a marketplace where other companies have much lower costs. Surely you can see that? It’s the grim economic reality that the whole world, including Bassa members, must face. The only reason BA may now have any future at all is because of the various cutbacks made since the days of ‘closing the gap’ in the 90’s. Old contract cabin crew have closed no gaps of significance, and their pay is ‘way off’ the market rate.

I have no argument with anyone who is paid the market rate, including the more junior crew, and those tasked with running BA. I don’t have the time or inclination to research the market rate for the CEO of a blue chip company, but if Willie Walsh is paid significantly more than that rate I will join any protest against his salary. I do know that he has made some generous gestures of the last year or two though.

I couldn’t agree more with your assertion that it is only to be expected that employees do all that they can to protect their T&C’s. If you truly believe in that then you too will have no problem understanding where the VCC came from. It is why I stand alongside all those from all departments, many of them Unite members, in BA’s defense against a Bassa that seems to have completely lost the plot, and which threatens my future. I find some comfort in the knowledge that, should BA fail for any reason, passengers will still want to fly, the aircraft will still exist to fly them, and a new entity will rise from the ashes of BA which will employ staff at something near the market rate. No change for me there then.

Something that is not relevant to this thread is the notion of the ‘Cruise Pilots’ that you refer to. An interesting rumour, a role that was very popular amongst co-pilots during the days of the Sydney postings in the early 90’s, as it was a role filled by a fully qualified pilot being paid the market rate for an easy ride with enhanced bidding seniority (due to the fact that only cruise pilots could bid for certain long range trips). It was a very nice little number!

Sorry Moderators, I digress!

I have been accused of hijacking this thread, and so will make this one of my last posts.

I'm sorry tomkins, it does appear that your initial intention for the subject matter of this thread was starter rates for mixed fleet. I should have started my own thread entitled 'Market Rate for cabin crew'

[Betty girl]

123breath.
BA is not trying to alter the pay of any crew, it is bringing in a new stater rate and new terms and conditions for future crew, so no I don't think this stance of yours is relevant. Having said that I am glad it has shown our salaries not to be as high as you had thought.

If you compare your salary with a low cost carrier you would be seen to be very well paid but I don't think pprune would like me to set up a thread for those pilots to come on here and compare their salaries with yours.

If you compare our salary to Air France, Iberia, old contract Quantas and Lufthansa crew I think you might find we earn similar and in a lot of cases, less than many of them.

So I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

P.S. I was recently told by a pilot that some ww pilots are going part time because otherrwise they are into the 50% tax bracket ( thats any one earning over £150,000) and it is better to be part time than work full time and pay the extra to the tax man. However I would be surprised if anyone started a thread asking BA Captains to tell us their salaries. It would be a bit personal, don't you think?