BA and Project Columbus III

[overstress]

PPRuNe is all about the truth, SP. Dirty linen is aired for all to see.

We pilots are used to having the voice recorder in the cab. Not so many in the galley though, perhaps that explains it?

FWIW, nuigini seems like a normal, nice person who would be uncomfortable with the CSD's statement.

I fly routes where the cc are regularly scrambling over themselves to finish the service to get rest. Even on a YYZ!

[wobble2plank]

SP, why does someone having a different opinion of the levels of service from LGW and being proud of what they achieve equate to 'shopping your colleagues'?

To be honest, cutting the crew on a LH flight will mean that the meal service takes a little bit longer with less time in crew rest. Whoopy do. In reality most of the passengers in the current climate don't really care about meal services, what they care about is the cost of the ticket and if they think that an extra crew member is going to cost them more money then they won't pay it. Also let's face it most of the service levels on our LH flights from LHR have been dwindling in the past few years anyway.

BASSA have carbon copied the BALPA deal, which I seem to remember you quoted as a 'roll over and take it sweetheart deal'. Only, as usual for BASSA, they have cherry picked the nice bits and left out the nasty 20% allowance cut and the productivity and hours increases. Couldn't have those now could we that would utilise the 'give' word. Nasty, nasty word.

I am sure there is a compromise in there somewhere, to be honest I really hope there is a compromise in there. I don't think you will see WW taking up BASSA's 'productivity' proposals though as, oddly enough, I failed to see any that returned any significant saving.

The whole thing seems to look like the original 'we'll give you a pay freeze and maybe a small cut but that's it and we want it all back in the future' plan just a little better dressed with more fluff.

I feel the company will be rolling about on the floor laughing with this one.

Good job there's plenty of negotiating time left.

Oh, no, there isn't is there!

[wobble2plank]

From the newsflash:

Our proposal exactly mirrors the pilots salary proposals, and remember that has been deemed, by the company, as acceptable. Our productivity proposals are also proportionate to the savings that were required of the Flight Deck community but deliver a far greater cost saving.

What utter, utter tripe. Fails to take into account that flight crew have already taken on board most of BA's current CC wish list plus increase in hours with reduced allowances.

However, never let the truth get in the way of a good bit of spin eh BASSA?

The next week should be a barrel of laughs, haven't seen so much hot air since the Bristol Balloon festival.



G'night all, I'm looking forward to reading all about the blow by blow account of how the great god BASSA is going to save the company with it's glowing blade the 'proposal of light'.

[Da Dog]

SP

Remember Walsh wanted 1400 to go before Xmas and got less than 700.

That's what he said, but how do you know he wasn't happy with the 700 he got?

You have said it yourself (or it could have been PiB, you both sound so alike) that Walsh is the master of brinkmanship, just like right now, he wants £150mil, but would probably settle for £80 mil

[HiFlyer14]

The BASSA initiatives are innovative.

Rubbish SP. It would appear that many are quite simply BASSA brainwashed, and will accept anything they say.

1. In negotiations, things are supposed to be done on a give-and-take basis. Why then has the BA proposal deteriorated dramatically from the one originally put out by BA on 1 June? That is what we pay the union to do - improve on the deal that was already there, yet they have been unable to do that.

2. When a proposal is made, the counter-proposal should cherry-pick the parts we can accept, and tweak the rest. The BASSA proposal bears little or no resemblance to the BA proposal. Instead they have volunteered us for, amongst other things, a 2.61% paycut (that wasn't even asked for!) When did we give our authority for them to do that??

Just as a reminder to all those fool-hardy enough to swallow the BASSA line, here is the definition of trade union:

Trade unions are a membership-based organisation and one of their main goals is to PROTECT and ADVANCE the interests of its members in the workplace.

How the devil are they advancing our interests by offering a pay-cut that is not being asked for?? WW will be laughing all the way to the bank!

BASSA acted too hastily to formulate a proper counter-proposal. It is crystal clear that they have absolutely no understanding of negotiation skills or techniques. At best this is shameful misrepresentation, at worst they are seriously putting all of our jobs and livelihoods on the line.

[SkyRocket10]

Voluntary redundancy offered to all UK permanent crew effective 30th Sept 09

Best offer opportunity
-Maximum of 52 weeks.
-Registration of interest closed 21st June (3722 crew)

I guess that's 3722 (almost 30%) of the 14000 crew that wont be calling for a strike!

This number added to the lack of support from Gatwick crew means Bassa will find it very hard to gain a majority vote in any strike ballot.

[overstress]

one of their main goals is to PROTECT and ADVANCE the interests of its members in the workplace.

And that from a BASSA member

Let's hope they protect, as not many people in this business are advancing at the moment

[PC767]

BA's own figures, sourced from the GPM results show a difference of 10 points between LHR LH and LGW LH. 10 points in LHR's favour. The effort is always to drive those figures upwards. Reducing crew will be counter-productive. If BA decide GPMs are nolonger important then fine.

[Glamgirl]

PC,

I should certainly hope WWLHR score better that LGW due to the fact that they always operate with at least 2 sometimes 3 more crew than we do. Can I ask when these results were published? As a lot of the time, LGW crew are the highest scoring crew around.

By the way, I don't want this to turn into a scoring competition...

Gg

[HiFlyer14]

Let's hope they protect, as not many people in this business are advancing at the moment

Exactly Overstress, that is the only thing we can hope for under the current climate. However, having had a mandate in April saying No to Negotiations (), BASSA have now sold us down the river!

What's a huge worry is that the crew who cannot think for themselves and have to let BASSA do it for them, are posting on the ESS forum, en masse (after a battle call on other forums) saying how great the BASSA proposal is! So all WW has to do now is come back and say "OK - we'll take everything BASSA has offered - but we still want crew complements reduced and New Fleet"! Then where will we be? BASSA have left us wide open, with no room for manoeuvre.

Once again BASSA have said "Jump" and the only question being asked is "How high?".

I personally think there is a lot that could be done with the BA proposal - and it could have turned out to be not a bad deal. It seems that the SENIOR STEWARDS are at play again. They will take a 2.6% paycut because they can afford to, but they won't reduce crew onboard because, god forbid, that may mean that they have to do a day's work. What about the rest of us that cannot afford a paycut, and ARE prepared to work harder onboard in order to salvage something? Zilch.

There can only be two outcomes to this sorry mess now:
1. A strike - which will ruin us anyway or
2. A very POOR deal, handed to them on a plate by BASSA.

Some momentum is gathering on other forums as members slowly realize the seriousness of what BASSA have done here, but it could well be too little, too late.

This is shameful. Lalalady needs to retreat to Lalaland - fast!

[Runway vacated]

GPMs

Those GPMs are one of the reasons that the myth of LHR service "quality" has been allowed to prosper. It would be difficult to imagine a customer feedback system more open to abuse.

The forms are handed out and collected by the self same crew that are the subject of the report. In other words they know exactly who has a piece of paper that could drop them in the do-do. They also have the opportunity to read the form before it is submitted to the company. The system can easily be "massaged" to give positive feedback.

A far more accurate measure of the "quality" of the service on board can be found in the various passenger chat forums. The picture there is far less rosy, with BA (and in particular LHR) scoring no better, and in many cases worse, than any other long haul scheduled operator. You know, the ones who get paid "slave wages".

[Stall Pusher]

Why do people here pontificate about things they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about?

On the inside of the four page A4 GPM forms, there is a tear off sticky strip so that it can be closed and the comments enclosed remain private. Virtually all GPMs handed back are stuck together.

The reason why Heathrow based crews score higher is because there is not the turnover of staff as there is at LGW. Crews are more experienced and professional. Reducing crew compliments will prove the point that the service onboard will be dumbed down to Gatwick satisfaction levels.

With 2600 less crew flying, I suppose someone here will argue that standards will improve. Gg has actually said that the reason why the service is better at LHR, is because on similar routes they have more crew.

[overstress]

RV: you are correct. Who is in charge of GPMs on board? The CSD, who is often very selective as to who gets one.

Completed GPMs are collected by..... the CSD, who conveniently has to visit the office shredder to dispose of the passenger list, so....

At least BA's proposal will stop the boredom of the CSD I flew with recently who announced that he had nothing to do (a full far-East flight BTW)

Edited to add, as I just read SPs post: another reason could be that the CSD has time at LHR to massage the system as described?

Why do people here pontificate about things they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about?

Do you mean

Why do people here state the true facts which run contrary to the official BASSA line?

SP, many of us here are perfectly well qualified to comment and contribute. We do so because we care about the company we work for and don't care to see it dragged down by....

[wobble2plank]

HiFlyer14,

The reason they have taken those figures is purely and simply that they have copied the BALPA agreement whilst failing to take into account that the flight crew have already agreed to most of the original BA proposal anyway 5 years ago.

Due to the ineptitude of BASSA and the ridiculous short time frame they left themselves with after all their posturing and time wasting they have, indeed, left you all wide open.

I cannot see BA accepting the counter proposal at all. Why do we have CSD's on LH flights who take no active part in the service? Surely they should be 'leading from the front' showing the junior members of the team what they should 'aspire' to?

Also the main thrust for BA is to rationalise the bewildering array of 'payments' into a single, manageable hourly sum. As the BASSA agreement seems to attempt to sidestep this issue by carbon copying the BALPA deal (that, incidentally we were all called 'ar$eholes' on the BASSA forum for accepting but for BASSA it is a brilliantly wrought deal?) and agreeing a paycut to protect the LH, CSD block payments. How many 'lates' will a CSD need to make up 2.6% bearing in mind the differing tax rate? Could be far tougher for the workers on SH to make up the difference.

Also why should the company, running the business for the investors and the customers have to 'request' activation of disruption clauses with the union? Who the hell runs the company anyway? Get aircraft back to base, get customers as quickly and efficiently to their destination as possible and THEN sort out disputes. BASSA DO NOT RUN BA NOR WILL THEY EVER RUN BA.

There is a long, long way to go in the negotiations and only 3 days left to do it. By WW statement if an AGREEMENT has not been reached by the 30th then standby for full activation of the BA measures.

BASSA have, once again, sold you all down the river and tried to window dress it by 'negotiating' exactly what BALPA negotiated over a hard 4 months. Seems remarkable similar to the pensions deal where BASSA were heard to say 'we want what they got'. Pathetic.

[Stall Pusher]

There is no doubt that some twit a**e licking CSD's did chuck out bad GPM forms in the past, frightened and intimidated that if their personal scores dropped because the IFE packed up or the aircraft was delayed, that somehow they were responsible for it, and would get 'managed' by their CCM over it. A couple of CSD's were sacked over 'GPM fraud.'

Most CSD's put them all in as they wanted the bad comments to reinforce the problems they encounter on every flight. Of course in spite of the constant evidence from passengers, BA never corrected what passengers most complained about.

Strangely BA put huge stock in the GPM's following trends when in fact the results were not always accurate, as the passengers who really should complete them would often refuse. For a long time now the forms can be sealed by the passenger.

[Runway vacated]

Crews are more experienced and professional. Reducing crew compliments will prove the point that the service onboard will be dumbed down to Gatwick satisfaction levels.

That comment in itself illustrates perfectly why things have to change at LHR. In what way, exactly, are the crews at LHR "more professional" than those at LGW? They all receive the same training, pass the same tests. Indeed the same could be said of any other airline in the UK. Many charter operators have uniform and SEP standards that put BA to shame.

Or does "professionalism" mean getting the service done as quickly as possible to maximise bunk time? Or taking 2 local nights in a hotel before returning to base following a diversion? Please enlighten us.

Experience can be a good or a bad thing. It can bring a heightened awareness of the needs of the passenger, and an ability to "read" people, all leading to an improved service. Or it can bring a lazy indifference, leading to minimum effort and a poor service. It is a two edged sword.

The INDIVIDUALS in BA cc have been let down by a union totally divorced from both the membership and the employer. The "indispensable" mantra leads to comments like the one quoted above. I am thankful that it is not the opinion of the majority.

[overstress]

I do know that the BALPA reps are not surprised at the way this is playing out, especially after the tagalong behaviour of BASSA over the pensions deal (refusing to attend meetings, benefitting from BALPA's ingenuity then selling it to the members as though BALPA had stitched them up )

Any knowledgeable observer could have written the script.

To be constructive: BASSA members should now urge their reps to engage as much as possible to thrash something out ASAP. Time is running out.

I think it was PiB (or SP, can't tell the difference) who, a few pages ago, said that the 30th was an 'artificial deadline'. As opposed to what, exactly? A deadline is simply that, and it was announced long enough ago to have got a deal. Everyone else has managed it.........

[HiFlyer14]

There is a long, long way to go in the negotiations and only 3 days left to do it.

Absolutely Wobbleplank - and thanks for your reply. This is truly the only forum where we can have serious and well-informed discussion.

The huge question now is how do we get it back on track? Everyone I speak to onboard says that they are happy to work harder, but don't want to lose money. The BA proposal could, with a bit of tweaking, achieve that. The BASSA proposal could not.

So little time and so much to do, ....

[overstress]

SP: I couldn't help picking up on your

frightened and intimidated that if their personal scores dropped because the IFE packed up or the aircraft was delayed, that somehow they were responsible for it

It seems to me, and this might be thread creep, that (and please don't take this personally as I am generalising) there are a lot of instances of the word 'intimidation' cropping up in discussions to do with crew, BASSA, IFCE etc. This, purely as an observation, is not something that flight crew tend to experience, in our environment an open and honest culture is promoted.

BA has a robust anti-bullying at work policy as you are well aware. Surely those CSDs could use that if they felt intimidated? The question could be asked: is there a culture of 'institutional bullying' in the BA cabin crew world? (IFCE mgt, DOMs, BASSA, on board)

[wobble2plank]

SP

The reason why Heathrow based crews score higher is because there is not the turnover of staff as there is at LGW. Crews are more experienced and professional. Reducing crew compliments will prove the point that the service onboard will be dumbed down to Gatwick satisfaction levels.

I find that comment incredibly condescending and patronising. All this coming from one set of CC against another? I don't ever recall flight crew calling LGW flight crew dumbed down or not as good as LHR flight crew? We all do the same job to the same levels with the same skill set irrespective of whether we fly out of LGW or LHR.

From my perspective, every time I have operated out of LGW, I have found the crew to be a breath of fresh air. Less bitter than some LHR crew and more willing to get the job done to the best of their abilities whilst operating at crew levels that would make LHR crew run crying to mother BASSA.

In fact, on many occasions I have had passenger comments on the positive performance of the crew as the passengers disembarked. Something that I have very seldom heard at LHR.

SO, to put this to bed, surely you should stop sniping at each other and get your inept, lazy union to do some proper representation before it all hits meltdown? Surely that would be a better channel for your, understandable, frustrations.