BA and Project Columbus III
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: derby
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CHANGE is Barak Obamas mantra.......and its working!
Therefore, reading between the lines here, MANY Crew feel the same and are either too frightened, confused or being misled into making a decision railroaded by the (seemingly) large numbers who feel they have to strike.
I'm sticking my neck out but here goes.......
Only a suggestion, and it might need tweeking, but who thinks it would help if we emailed our Managers or Bill Francis direct to voice our feelings and willingness to co-operate? Im very sure Bassa are working incredibly hard but this is an unprecedented situation that will change our lives forever!
I dont want to alienate Bassa as I would keep them in the loop and my efforts are full of good intentions, not political sabotage.
Therefore, reading between the lines here, MANY Crew feel the same and are either too frightened, confused or being misled into making a decision railroaded by the (seemingly) large numbers who feel they have to strike.
I'm sticking my neck out but here goes.......
Only a suggestion, and it might need tweeking, but who thinks it would help if we emailed our Managers or Bill Francis direct to voice our feelings and willingness to co-operate? Im very sure Bassa are working incredibly hard but this is an unprecedented situation that will change our lives forever!
I dont want to alienate Bassa as I would keep them in the loop and my efforts are full of good intentions, not political sabotage.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dont want to alienate Bassa as I would keep them in the loop and my efforts are full of good intentions, not political sabotage.
Who are BASSA, they are not a separate entity!
They are your representatives who do what you ask of them - you elect them after all.
Speak to them, demand answers, demand a members meeting and when a meeting is scheduled - attend it and don't follow the herd mentality - if you don't, then don't sit there feeling sorry for yourself.
I'm sorry, but sometimes 'tough love' is what is required.
BASSA are backs to the wall at the moment because they have never had to negotiate in the last 20 years, they have just said 'No' and have lost the skill required to 'trade' to a satisfactory deal.
Contrast the way in which BALPA deal with the company - regular detailled bsuiness talks with the CEO and CFO, adult to adult reviews and root and branch reviews of options etc put forward freely by both sides culminating in a hopefully successful outcome that delivers for both parties.
Ok, so there have been recent conflicts (Openskies for one), but in the past decade there have been successful conclusions to wage restructuring and work coverage talks.
It is time for the cabin crew community to take control of their destinies again by regaining control of BASSA. Only you can do that.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woking
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very hard to be constructive and helpful, a CSD the other day was very upset, he'd been to see BASSA about the lack of work for them and wanted a solution.
The rep was very agressive towards him, he was left in no uncertain terms as to what happens if you don't follow the BASSA way.
Look at that meeting at the race course, 100% votes for everything, no one dared question or speak against them.
Try it yourself, go see the BASSA people in their offices and give your "reasonable" suggestions, let us all know how you get on.
Very hard for you all.
I also here lots of things along the lines of "we are happy to work harder but don't want to lose money".
Very admirable especially for shorthaul with the 500 hour averages.
Then suggest fixed links and its "oh no couldn't possibly do those, we'd be very tired".
Suggest not having 6 crew to give out nuts on a domestic and it's "oh no, you don't know how hard it is, we have drinks to serve as well.
Suggest perhaps 15 crew on a jumbo is a tad too many and it's "oh no, how tired we would all be, what about crew rest and passenger service will suffer".
The savings have to be made one way or another but quite how 14,000 different minded crew and a stubborn union will sort a solution that makes you all happy I have no idea.
Good luck though.
The rep was very agressive towards him, he was left in no uncertain terms as to what happens if you don't follow the BASSA way.
Look at that meeting at the race course, 100% votes for everything, no one dared question or speak against them.
Try it yourself, go see the BASSA people in their offices and give your "reasonable" suggestions, let us all know how you get on.
Very hard for you all.
I also here lots of things along the lines of "we are happy to work harder but don't want to lose money".
Very admirable especially for shorthaul with the 500 hour averages.
Then suggest fixed links and its "oh no couldn't possibly do those, we'd be very tired".
Suggest not having 6 crew to give out nuts on a domestic and it's "oh no, you don't know how hard it is, we have drinks to serve as well.
Suggest perhaps 15 crew on a jumbo is a tad too many and it's "oh no, how tired we would all be, what about crew rest and passenger service will suffer".
The savings have to be made one way or another but quite how 14,000 different minded crew and a stubborn union will sort a solution that makes you all happy I have no idea.
Good luck though.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's the way things are.
BASSA is very strict and dare you question anything you will be in for a very tough fight. Think about the "name and shame" quiz they did a couple of months ago over a CSD who decided to make their own way to London from Prestwick.
Another issue is the hot towels in WTP. It would take crew less than two minutes to do them but because BASSA had not approved it shouldn't be done. I once did them, because the CSD asked me to do it, and a certain crew member went mad at me because BASSA told us not do to it!
Certain crew has to ask themselves: are we there for the passengers or not? They are after all paying our salaries.
BASSA is very strict and dare you question anything you will be in for a very tough fight. Think about the "name and shame" quiz they did a couple of months ago over a CSD who decided to make their own way to London from Prestwick.
Another issue is the hot towels in WTP. It would take crew less than two minutes to do them but because BASSA had not approved it shouldn't be done. I once did them, because the CSD asked me to do it, and a certain crew member went mad at me because BASSA told us not do to it!
Certain crew has to ask themselves: are we there for the passengers or not? They are after all paying our salaries.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Topbunk has hit the nail on the head with the last post.
BASSA has relied far too long on the mantra of 'no, now what's the question?' and it is now coming to hurt those that BASSA represents.
For years now many other groups within BA have warned the BASSA negotiating (?) team that their attitude towards negotiations was flawed. However, they pressed ahead and they won out. Time and time again. As a result they triumphed themselves against the other groups who took concessions and adjusted their T's & C's to fit the modern age. All this was fine until the crunch really hit. Now, through inadequate negotiation on YOUR BEHALF, BASSA has left you all hanging in mid air with, potentially, an awful long way to fall. Thus that necessary adjustment will be painful.
We saw this in the last mess of a CC ballot. 7 or 8 differing things to ballot over? From sickness procedure to ingrowing toenails? The vast majority of CC were poorly informed by BASSA as to their rights and legal stand point with respect to striking. There was little or no communication as to the fact that if BA resolved ONE item on the ballot list then the rest of the ballot would be null and void.
Now we get to the point where the company has the gloves off, they want to re-adjust BA CC wages and conditions in line with those throughout the world and the adjustment will be painful. If you want to compare this with the dispute over Open Skies then fine but take away one very salient point, BA won that dispute on very tenuous legal grounds but nevertheless they won and have the resources, still, to do so again. Instead of the normal BASSA stance they should be out canvassing their members, polling what would be the least painful path through this mess and negotiating as adults with the company.
Failure to do so will result in the activation of the compulsory redundancy plan that the company has in place already. The company is giving ALL DEPARTMENTS the chance to get their workplaces in order before the management come in and do it for them. Willie wants this done and dusted so that he can get the required funding in place for the coming bloody financial year. He won't be able to do that with industrial unrest hanging over the company and, to be honest, public opinion is definitely NOT on the side of a strike for 'cushy' working practices.
Time will, once again, tell.
BASSA has relied far too long on the mantra of 'no, now what's the question?' and it is now coming to hurt those that BASSA represents.
For years now many other groups within BA have warned the BASSA negotiating (?) team that their attitude towards negotiations was flawed. However, they pressed ahead and they won out. Time and time again. As a result they triumphed themselves against the other groups who took concessions and adjusted their T's & C's to fit the modern age. All this was fine until the crunch really hit. Now, through inadequate negotiation on YOUR BEHALF, BASSA has left you all hanging in mid air with, potentially, an awful long way to fall. Thus that necessary adjustment will be painful.
We saw this in the last mess of a CC ballot. 7 or 8 differing things to ballot over? From sickness procedure to ingrowing toenails? The vast majority of CC were poorly informed by BASSA as to their rights and legal stand point with respect to striking. There was little or no communication as to the fact that if BA resolved ONE item on the ballot list then the rest of the ballot would be null and void.
Now we get to the point where the company has the gloves off, they want to re-adjust BA CC wages and conditions in line with those throughout the world and the adjustment will be painful. If you want to compare this with the dispute over Open Skies then fine but take away one very salient point, BA won that dispute on very tenuous legal grounds but nevertheless they won and have the resources, still, to do so again. Instead of the normal BASSA stance they should be out canvassing their members, polling what would be the least painful path through this mess and negotiating as adults with the company.
Failure to do so will result in the activation of the compulsory redundancy plan that the company has in place already. The company is giving ALL DEPARTMENTS the chance to get their workplaces in order before the management come in and do it for them. Willie wants this done and dusted so that he can get the required funding in place for the coming bloody financial year. He won't be able to do that with industrial unrest hanging over the company and, to be honest, public opinion is definitely NOT on the side of a strike for 'cushy' working practices.
Time will, once again, tell.
Last edited by wobble2plank; 9th Jun 2009 at 15:52.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The rep was very agressive towards him, he was left in no uncertain terms as to what happens if you don't follow the BASSA way.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SALISBURY
Age: 76
Posts: 706
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please Don't Strike
As Willy said in KL, a major airline may well go bust in the near future. All a strike will achieve is greatly increase the likelihood that the airline will be BA!
My small airline went bankrupt in December: over 90% of both flight & cabin crew are still out of work.
The recession will eventually come to an end & people will start travelling again. Until then, patience is a virtue.
Last edited by fincastle84; 9th Jun 2009 at 16:47.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woking
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA cabin crew are "the face of the airline", they are the "best in the world", they are not plate layers, they are trained to fight fires, save lives, heavens one of them is even "in charge".
They have elevated themselves to a position so high they couldn't possibly climb down.
Old contract crew take home more than some First Officers, that just proves how important they are.
Yes WE know it's all rubbish but they actually believe all this stuff, some will fight to the death to keep all they have.
It's worked after every crisis there has ever been, it may even work again, who knows.
They have elevated themselves to a position so high they couldn't possibly climb down.
Old contract crew take home more than some First Officers, that just proves how important they are.
Yes WE know it's all rubbish but they actually believe all this stuff, some will fight to the death to keep all they have.
It's worked after every crisis there has ever been, it may even work again, who knows.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woking
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
am i right in thinking that with allowances on top of basic ba staff earn 30k?
New entrants have low basics 10k-18k scale so with allowances earn a lot less but still a good wage.
To be clear, not all crew earn double everyone else but if you account for old contract high basic, everyones high allowances, the inefficient rostering and the huge number of standby crew to cover inflexible on the day disruption then BA crew as a whole cost double the nearest competitor.
Trouble is we all live to our means and a cut is a cut, it hurts whatever you earn, trouble is that double market rate is unsustainable.
P.S. Gatwick crew excluded, they earn low basics, have normal allowances, work hard, don't add to disruption and are generally a lot happier bunch.
Must be a lot of internal envy/frustration.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: LGW
Posts: 595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peterlondon,
To put it simply, there are no justifications as to why Lhr crew earn so much more than Lgw crew. The company's line is that "to remain competetive and Lgw is in direct competition with Lo-Co's...bla bla". Still doesn't make it right. Also, Lhr crew get London weighting, whereas we don't, as we're 200 yards within the wrong county. But such is life. There will be a difference for ever, pretty much, and I've come to terms with that a long time ago.
Gg
To put it simply, there are no justifications as to why Lhr crew earn so much more than Lgw crew. The company's line is that "to remain competetive and Lgw is in direct competition with Lo-Co's...bla bla". Still doesn't make it right. Also, Lhr crew get London weighting, whereas we don't, as we're 200 yards within the wrong county. But such is life. There will be a difference for ever, pretty much, and I've come to terms with that a long time ago.
Gg
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peterlondon
It depends on rank and when the crew were employed. The crew recruited before 1997 are on the old contract which is a very good deal. Most of them are also on part-time because they can afford it. Some of them earn more money than myself and many other crew who were recruited after 1997 and still work full-time.
LHR has always been first priority for the union. This explains the differences between LGW and LHR. The crew working out of LGW are really providing a fantastic service with both less pay and crew complement onboard.
Justificatin for higher salary at LHR? None.
Making faces behind passengers is not acceptable. It's also very childish. Unfortunately you would see staff like that everywhere and not only in BA.
LHR has always been first priority for the union. This explains the differences between LGW and LHR. The crew working out of LGW are really providing a fantastic service with both less pay and crew complement onboard.
Justificatin for higher salary at LHR? None.
Making faces behind passengers is not acceptable. It's also very childish. Unfortunately you would see staff like that everywhere and not only in BA.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: london
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
......... and while the future of the airline is in peril,people are looking CR in the eye, over on the BASSA forum the hot topic is that crew must get 3 hours rest on an LHR-GRU, either that or the service must be adjusted (meaning no breakfast)
Rome burns...............
Wake up please
Rome burns...............
Wake up please
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My God look at all these 140k pa Captains virtually grooming the CC to hand back their T & C s whilst ensuring their enormous salaries remain intact! Get real guys. If the company cannot afford the new contract salary my household receives they cannot afford yours then can they?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: 35,000 ft
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Imast for your starter for 10 - I agree!
And to TopBunk, Plodding, Wobble thanks - we were finally getting somewhere - until the tone got lowered.
We are where we are. You can debate all you like about how much LHR cabin crew are paid, but that is what BA set out to pay its' crew, however long ago. We have a contract of employment and even Bill Francis has stated on intouch days, it is not our fault - BA agreed to it and he doesn't (allegedly) want to impact on that.
And yes, I fully agree that we have arrived at this point due to BASSA's inability to negotiate and always saying no. As Nuigini states it is very difficult if you dare to stick your neck out, and I too have battled onboard with issues "because BASSA said no." So what can we do......?
Well, for me, there ARE numerous changes that could be made to make us more productive. So, I AM going to stick my neck out and list a few just off the top of my head....
Back-to-back hotels
QRS hotels
Fixed Links
Crew complements onboard
Disruption Agreement
Global Alleviation
But...both sides have put a communication freeze on and I think this is really unhelpful. Under STS we were kept informed - not so under this regime, and I find it frightening. What is going on? Are they discussing things like the above, or is New Fleet the ONLY option for WW?
I sincerely believe that there are many more like Rainbow and myself, but as stated it REALLY is daunting beyond belief to dare to speak out.
One lone voice at a very militant BASSA meeting just ain't gonna crack it I'm afraid....
And to TopBunk, Plodding, Wobble thanks - we were finally getting somewhere - until the tone got lowered.
We are where we are. You can debate all you like about how much LHR cabin crew are paid, but that is what BA set out to pay its' crew, however long ago. We have a contract of employment and even Bill Francis has stated on intouch days, it is not our fault - BA agreed to it and he doesn't (allegedly) want to impact on that.
And yes, I fully agree that we have arrived at this point due to BASSA's inability to negotiate and always saying no. As Nuigini states it is very difficult if you dare to stick your neck out, and I too have battled onboard with issues "because BASSA said no." So what can we do......?
Well, for me, there ARE numerous changes that could be made to make us more productive. So, I AM going to stick my neck out and list a few just off the top of my head....
Back-to-back hotels
QRS hotels
Fixed Links
Crew complements onboard
Disruption Agreement
Global Alleviation
But...both sides have put a communication freeze on and I think this is really unhelpful. Under STS we were kept informed - not so under this regime, and I find it frightening. What is going on? Are they discussing things like the above, or is New Fleet the ONLY option for WW?
I sincerely believe that there are many more like Rainbow and myself, but as stated it REALLY is daunting beyond belief to dare to speak out.
One lone voice at a very militant BASSA meeting just ain't gonna crack it I'm afraid....
Last edited by HiFlyer14; 10th Jun 2009 at 05:30.
Thread Starter
pinkaroo
Who has told you/why are you alledging Flight Crew salaries are going to remain intact? Since the BALPA Reps are deep in negotiation with the Company and haven't told their members what is being negotiated I'm sure you (and BASSA) don't have a clue what's in store for Flight Crew.
My guess is we will all be asked to take a hit, even the "140K pa" Captains......does that make you feel any better?
My guess is we will all be asked to take a hit, even the "140K pa" Captains......does that make you feel any better?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wiggy, No it doesn't. I'm on record here supporting your T & C's. I am irritated by the last few posts from individuals who may even be senior management grooming those not alert enough to spot it, supported by LGW crew/ crew with applications in with other airlines (N*****i), into agreeing to taking a financial hit. Long may your T & C's continue.Stop wishing it on others folks.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: LGW
Posts: 595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pinkaroo,
We're not wishing ill on anyone or looking forward to it or however you put it. But we do realise that something has to give. Urgently.
I'm fully capable of thinking for myself, and I'm in no way groomed by anyone. Are you groomed by Bassa per chance? Do you believe everything they say?
Seriously, have a sit down and think about it (again). Nobody is trying to take away your money. Have you been informed by Bassa what the company wants, in regards to your t&c's? New fleet doesn't count, by the way. As far as I'm concerned, nothing specific has been released yet, in regards to t&c's being changed. It's all galleyfm and hearsay at the moment.
I know you (and another 14000 crew) don't want New fleet, but it will happen, whether we like it or not, and there is no legal reason to strike over the matter.
I also know that Bassa suggested to the company to not set up New fleet, but employ future crew on yet another contract, paid less than current contract (more like Lgw contract), and work the network as it stands. This proves to me that Bassa doesn't give a flying monkey about anyone but themselves and current Lhr crew. It is obvious discrimination to even suggest such a thing. Is there any wonder that Lgw crew don't trust Bassa?
Gg
We're not wishing ill on anyone or looking forward to it or however you put it. But we do realise that something has to give. Urgently.
I'm fully capable of thinking for myself, and I'm in no way groomed by anyone. Are you groomed by Bassa per chance? Do you believe everything they say?
Seriously, have a sit down and think about it (again). Nobody is trying to take away your money. Have you been informed by Bassa what the company wants, in regards to your t&c's? New fleet doesn't count, by the way. As far as I'm concerned, nothing specific has been released yet, in regards to t&c's being changed. It's all galleyfm and hearsay at the moment.
I know you (and another 14000 crew) don't want New fleet, but it will happen, whether we like it or not, and there is no legal reason to strike over the matter.
I also know that Bassa suggested to the company to not set up New fleet, but employ future crew on yet another contract, paid less than current contract (more like Lgw contract), and work the network as it stands. This proves to me that Bassa doesn't give a flying monkey about anyone but themselves and current Lhr crew. It is obvious discrimination to even suggest such a thing. Is there any wonder that Lgw crew don't trust Bassa?
Gg
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pinkaroo,
I really don't appreciate being accused of being part of management because I simply sympathise with LGW at the same time thinking realistically that things have to change at LHR. It's actually possible for LHR based crew to feel for our colleagues down the road at Gatters... perhaps you should try.
I really don't appreciate being accused of being part of management because I simply sympathise with LGW at the same time thinking realistically that things have to change at LHR. It's actually possible for LHR based crew to feel for our colleagues down the road at Gatters... perhaps you should try.