BA and Project Columbus II

[Carnage Matey!]

I'm sure the 777 boys will be along shortly to add their comments but as a jumbo driver I can tell you I've never seen it. It's too transparent and I'm quite sure any decent CSD would raise the question of why there were invol downgrades from First with a flight crew rest seat there. If the case was settle without contacting the operating crew then it's plausible someone at the outstation has found a watertight means of covering their tracks. Having racked my brains the only situation in the last 10 years I can think of where flight crew were entitled to a First seat was one season on the IAH route when BA wanted to use a non-bunked aircraft when the route required bunks. The First seat was blocked out as a compromise deal as Club wasn't suitable for proper horizontal rest, and again, the seat was blocked out in the commercial booking engines. Apart from that if there are invol downgrades going on then somebody is on the fiddle!

[WeLieInTheShadows]

When LGW Fleet started and we had IAH the Flight crew did a deal with BA as they were apparently entitled to bunk rest, but there were no bunked 777s at LGW.

In this situation a FIRST seat was blocked out for their rest (this was just for the winter schedule).

[VS-LHRCSA]

Well, it did strike me as strange as I said earlier - enough for it to stand out from the other investigations I did. Hopefully, it was a one-off. It might well have been quicker and cheaper just to pay the pax off, condsidering his status. I don't want to keep dragging the thread off course, so I'll leave it there, guys.

[Shaka Zulu]

A 777 driver here, my fellow pilots are absolutely correct in their understanding of the agreements. Nothing more to add. Sounds fishy to me, because we would never insist on a rest seat in First and have a fare paying passenger downgraded.
It just doesn't happen. We all know the rules and play by them.

[VS-LHRCSA]

Ok, thanks for that. So to summarise, flight crew are entitled to a club world seat for crew rest on a longer range, non bunk equipped flight however they may use a FIRST seat if one is available. Am I right?

I remember from my crew days, having relief pilots on the ATL if they were only nightstopping (as opposed to a 4 day trip). I take it then, that this rule applies to flights over a certain duration?

[Shaka Zulu]

Almost true. On some sectors a bunk and a seat are provided.
But the entitlement is a Club World rest seat (11 J or K) on the 777 (this was done because of being at the bulkhead on the old Club World arrangement and therefore deemed the quietest.
If Club is overbooked and a rest seat is required AND there are seats available in First (and ONLY then) will we get a rest seat in First (4K typically) so that a seat is free for a fare paying customer in Club World.

And you are right in terms of flights over a certain duration. Around the 9hour mark is the change over from 2 to 3 crew and therefore rest requirements that come with it.

Anyhow, enough thread creep.

Share price is taking another battering.....

[Human Factor]

So to summarise, flight crew are entitled to a club world seat for crew rest on a longer range, non bunk equipped flight however they may use a FIRST seat if one is available. Am I right?

Yes. In addition, in theory there should be no involuntary upgrades to F before the flight crew seat is moved though commercial upgrades are permitted. Likewise, there should be no staff in F without F priority tickets if the rest seat hasn't been moved.

[/threadcreep]

[wiggy]

pips

Probably the same reason why a junior Cabin Crew Member at BA can earn more than a senior Cabin crew Member at Easyjet/Ryanair and probably a whole host of other airlines......
And your next point is?

[Shaka Zulu]

Pips, dont belittle me by calling us Flight Deck. We are Flight Crew and our work environment is called the Flight Deck.
Funnily enough I WAS an EasyJet FO and the salary rivals BA's FO salaries (up to paypoint 4).
You are right in the fact that a VERY senior FO could take home more than an EZY Captain. He'd have to be longhaul and work his tits of (900hrs to the dot).

What you forget is that I would have had a Command in EZY in year 5 (maximum) of employment. No way in hell that is going to happen in BA, so salary wise they earn a huge chunk more for an awful long time.
I know the pay structure very well in EZY and their Captains/Fo's are paid a very very decent wage (including loyalty bonus etc).

Only talk about stuff that you know anything about or else don't bother.

[Carnage Matey!]

Recently flew with a new joiner from Easyjet. He'd done 3 years and had left 6 months before his command course was due. It'll take him ten years in BA to catch up with the earnings he would have had at Easyjet as a Captain and about 15 years to get a command at BA. Looks like they could do with introducing some basic punctuation and grammar skills to the cabin crew training course. By the way pips, have a look at post number 245 in this thread.

[pips]

nothing to gain

Shaka zulu
ok but you still earn more than virgin/bmi and enjoy better t/c.
and that came out of the mouth of a balpa rep.
And the point here is your pay and t/c as flt crew have nothing to do with cabin crew..
and my t/c as cabin crew have nothing to do with flight crew

[Carnage Matey!]

ok but you still earn more than virgin/bmi and enjoy better t/c.

Virgin only fly 750 hours per year, we fly 900.

[lovethesky]

i doubt the £2000 i take home a month will bankrupt, the airline, nor will my pension.
how much is your salary??

[overstress]

lovethesky, take a look at how much over the odds BA cabin crew are paid, the CAA website has it all. Your £2k a month may not bankrupt the airline, but your department's total wage bill might.

Look at how much more your dept is being asked to save and ask yourself why.

One sector home and finish, anyone?

[PC767]

Overstress.

I haven't seen the oft quoted CAA figures. Do they compare salary costs alone, or do they include other costs such as support and management?

And, what is this one sector home and finish quote? Is this aimed at long haul, short haul or just a generic statement? Does it include flight crew as well, such as the flight crew who have been positioning out to India then operating back again. What does it mean?

[overstress]

Perhaps you should have a look around for the figures, you may be surprised.

One sector back and finish is a common experience for Eurofleet crew. Some may not consider that to be pulling their weight. Sorry if this offends some.

[PC767]

I'd be suprised these days if that was a short haul trip, but I'm not and never have been lhr short haul. I could see it being the final sector of a multi-day trip, ie last o/b flight to a destination after a multi sector day, night stop, and first i/b flight into LON and end of tour. They have to stop sometime!

[overstress]

One sector out, nightstop, one back. Heard some crew on the bus the other day describing their trip to a colleague. I've seen it many times when I was on SH. It's in their agreements, apparently.

[PC767]

We'll have to agree on apparently unless someone from BA short haul cabin crew can confirm or deny the suggestion.

[VS-LHRCSA]

I did the occaisional two day, two sector trip when I was EF LHR a few years back. I also did plenty when I was on charter. From a scheduling point of view it's a bit like positioning and deadheading sectors or standover days - it's not ideal from a company point of view but sometimes there is no way around it if we need an aircraft and a crew at a certain place at a certain time.