QCCA Pay and Conditions - A380
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Cartexchange and mrpaxing....I agree with you.
International flying itself never 'belonged' to Domestic. The Regional Flying Agreement was a tri party agreement between International, Domestic, and the company. Initially it was 25% to Domestic, 30% to International and the remaining 45% to be decided by the company. The agreement had more to do with the A330 than anything else. Granted, during SH EBA 6-7, the Beehives decided to make a grab for international flying during a time when Domestic was facing an uncertain future (with the introduction of Virgin Blue etc). I guess it was a strategic move back then.....much to the dissatisfaction of International. So for a while there during EBA 7, the Beehives enjoyed shopping for copy handbags and Tiffany jewellry at Shenzen and Silk Markets. Now that the remaining 45% floating allocation of regional flying has returned to International, I guess the Beehives are feeling withdrawal symptoms.
As for the remaining 25% that was agreed to in the Regional Flying Agreement....well Domestic can kiss that goodbye for the following reasons
(1) The FAAA did not bother to even SECURE it in watertight writing during this round of EBA negotiations (like International SECURED their 75%).
(2) Do you really think the company will even bother giving Domestic the 25% given that they now have clearly indicated that they will call the divsion "Domestic" and want it to concentrate on B737 (oh puke I hate that tin can aircraft with a passion). As for those well meaning people out there who want to take QF to court over the 25%.....you can't dictate to your employer what sort or work you want and how you want to get it. The employer can do whatever it chooses, within the framework of the law and EBAs.
So to all the Beehives out there who feel hard done by, by not getting any international flying.....come on ladies (and guys)...it was never ours in the first place. Lets accept that it belonged to someone else and let them have it back (so to speak).
I enjoyed Regional Flying whilst I had it and I am grateful for being given the chance to see Asia. But that time is over now and I've gotten over it and moved on with my life.....(onto A380 yay!!!!!).
International flying itself never 'belonged' to Domestic. The Regional Flying Agreement was a tri party agreement between International, Domestic, and the company. Initially it was 25% to Domestic, 30% to International and the remaining 45% to be decided by the company. The agreement had more to do with the A330 than anything else. Granted, during SH EBA 6-7, the Beehives decided to make a grab for international flying during a time when Domestic was facing an uncertain future (with the introduction of Virgin Blue etc). I guess it was a strategic move back then.....much to the dissatisfaction of International. So for a while there during EBA 7, the Beehives enjoyed shopping for copy handbags and Tiffany jewellry at Shenzen and Silk Markets. Now that the remaining 45% floating allocation of regional flying has returned to International, I guess the Beehives are feeling withdrawal symptoms.
As for the remaining 25% that was agreed to in the Regional Flying Agreement....well Domestic can kiss that goodbye for the following reasons
(1) The FAAA did not bother to even SECURE it in watertight writing during this round of EBA negotiations (like International SECURED their 75%).
(2) Do you really think the company will even bother giving Domestic the 25% given that they now have clearly indicated that they will call the divsion "Domestic" and want it to concentrate on B737 (oh puke I hate that tin can aircraft with a passion). As for those well meaning people out there who want to take QF to court over the 25%.....you can't dictate to your employer what sort or work you want and how you want to get it. The employer can do whatever it chooses, within the framework of the law and EBAs.
So to all the Beehives out there who feel hard done by, by not getting any international flying.....come on ladies (and guys)...it was never ours in the first place. Lets accept that it belonged to someone else and let them have it back (so to speak).
I enjoyed Regional Flying whilst I had it and I am grateful for being given the chance to see Asia. But that time is over now and I've gotten over it and moved on with my life.....(onto A380 yay!!!!!).
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Domestos
Im fully aware this is the wrong place to discuss the following but i cant help but to respond to a couple of things you said in your wrist slashing piece you wrote before.
This mysterious "experiment" you wrote of whereby MEL crew are flying nothing but SYD returns is totally false. Basically when QCCA started up, pretty much all our casuals left en masse to go across. That left MEL chronically short. The only ones doing SYD returns are the juniors. For everyone else its business as usual. Add to that, due to the shortage, we have CNS and PER doing flying that should be done by MEL. Once VR is address, port swaps done, and recruitment for this new "entity" gets going, things for the juniors should get better.
My apologies to everyone else I just needed to clarify.
Im fully aware this is the wrong place to discuss the following but i cant help but to respond to a couple of things you said in your wrist slashing piece you wrote before.
This mysterious "experiment" you wrote of whereby MEL crew are flying nothing but SYD returns is totally false. Basically when QCCA started up, pretty much all our casuals left en masse to go across. That left MEL chronically short. The only ones doing SYD returns are the juniors. For everyone else its business as usual. Add to that, due to the shortage, we have CNS and PER doing flying that should be done by MEL. Once VR is address, port swaps done, and recruitment for this new "entity" gets going, things for the juniors should get better.
My apologies to everyone else I just needed to clarify.
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Hello Whatever6719...."wrist slashing"...LOL. I had to laugh at it cos I liked the way you put it. Yeah sounds dire...but it is the reality of the situation and not seeing things through rose coloured lenses. The flying at Domestic isn't going to get any better....even with VR, new entity, etc etc......Darls its still gonna be 2-4 legs Citiflyer on a 737 and the odd pokey 767 rusty box. This is great for the Mothers Club and I am happy that they get to keep their flying. Its just not me, which is why I am leaving and which is why I have started this thread in order to canvas info about A380.
My friend (who is an ex QF regional airline F/A) is about 9 years seniority and he got 21 SYD returns....I don't think 9 years is that junior? Also...do you remember that the company put out on DCIS screens that they were trialling limited overnights for MEL?
Yes we digress from the subject of this thread and like you, I apologise to those reading this that the subject has taken a twist.
My friend (who is an ex QF regional airline F/A) is about 9 years seniority and he got 21 SYD returns....I don't think 9 years is that junior? Also...do you remember that the company put out on DCIS screens that they were trialling limited overnights for MEL?
Yes we digress from the subject of this thread and like you, I apologise to those reading this that the subject has taken a twist.
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Looking for QCCA A380 Positives
Everyone is so quick to jump on the band wagon and give their own (often negative) judgements/interpretations of QCCA 380 ad nausuem, ad infinitum. Yes we all know the pay is less than perfect; yes we all know you have no bidding; yes we all know the hours will be longer etc.........duh!!!!!!!!! Is there anyone out there who is QCCA 380 and have something positive and proactive to post? I am interested in what you have to say....anything positive would be great.
P.S. To all A scale crew (International and Domestic)....Lets not QCCA bash....if you want to do that, start your own thread and bitch away at your heart's content. This thread is about A380 and all the pros and cons of it....so far we've heard heaps of cons...now it would be nice for all to hear about the pros.
P.S. To all A scale crew (International and Domestic)....Lets not QCCA bash....if you want to do that, start your own thread and bitch away at your heart's content. This thread is about A380 and all the pros and cons of it....so far we've heard heaps of cons...now it would be nice for all to hear about the pros.
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Ok fair enough international flying may not have 'belonged' to S/H BEFORE... 'back in the old days' but as said an agreement is an agreement... 25% to short haul... a couple DPS-PER returns a week is NOT 25% of regional flying... first they keep telling the crew in perth what a great base it is, how high they get on satisfaction marks on the Singapore & Hkg runs... it's going great blah blah blah... then pull them off... I know quite a lot of people who travel QF to HKG on business and they are NOT happy... they've written letters stating that they can mostly tell the difference between long haul and short haul crew as long haul seem to disappear after meals are done.... not slating LH crew just telling you what was told to me.
I guess you guys just can't understand from our point of view what it's like to be told 'oh yes you will do all of these international flights' and get good hours doing Singapores then have them yanked out from under you with 2 weeks notice.... a LOT of casuals are having hard time gettig the same hours doing 'domestic' flying as the patterns allocated are crap and are taking 2nd jobs (god knows how with the way our rosters work)
It also hurts a bit because all I've ever heard from a lot of LH crew is 'oh god those Singapore shuttles suck they are so hard where's our 3 day pattern gone I want to go to Sentosa blah blah whinge whinge' well the 12 hour shuttles were par for the course at S/H and WE DID THEM REGULARLY... I have done 2 or 3 in one week before and yes it was part of my job but I loved them... it was a chance to develop our skills and deal with non-English speaking pax... fly on a different aircraft other than the Rolls Royce
and while that 25% is in the agreement I will damn well 'whinge about it' whether you lot like it or not... I can imagine the stink there would be if your 'LH FAAA'(whatever that is I thought it was all 'one union') wasn't getting you something in yor agreement... so don't tell us off for wanting what (so far) had been promised to us!
Not talking to all LH crew as most of you are good but for the 5% slackers that pax describe to me pull up your socks and be bloody glad you get these 'boring regionals and bloody Joburgs' because I can assure you there ARE crew out there who would love to do them. Be glad you could get a LH job, not everyone got that opportunity!
I guess you guys just can't understand from our point of view what it's like to be told 'oh yes you will do all of these international flights' and get good hours doing Singapores then have them yanked out from under you with 2 weeks notice.... a LOT of casuals are having hard time gettig the same hours doing 'domestic' flying as the patterns allocated are crap and are taking 2nd jobs (god knows how with the way our rosters work)
It also hurts a bit because all I've ever heard from a lot of LH crew is 'oh god those Singapore shuttles suck they are so hard where's our 3 day pattern gone I want to go to Sentosa blah blah whinge whinge' well the 12 hour shuttles were par for the course at S/H and WE DID THEM REGULARLY... I have done 2 or 3 in one week before and yes it was part of my job but I loved them... it was a chance to develop our skills and deal with non-English speaking pax... fly on a different aircraft other than the Rolls Royce
and while that 25% is in the agreement I will damn well 'whinge about it' whether you lot like it or not... I can imagine the stink there would be if your 'LH FAAA'(whatever that is I thought it was all 'one union') wasn't getting you something in yor agreement... so don't tell us off for wanting what (so far) had been promised to us!Not talking to all LH crew as most of you are good but for the 5% slackers that pax describe to me pull up your socks and be bloody glad you get these 'boring regionals and bloody Joburgs' because I can assure you there ARE crew out there who would love to do them. Be glad you could get a LH job, not everyone got that opportunity!
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LRH,are you
finished yet? stop whining, and as for pax have said this or that, how long is a piece of string? if i would make a comment about sh,whats been said by pax........ get over it.
i put it to you this way. there are more then 5500+ flights domestic/international a week and given the last few months turbulent times with engineering/planes falling apart/delays etc. we do have a lot of unhappy campers out there.
i put it to you this way. there are more then 5500+ flights domestic/international a week and given the last few months turbulent times with engineering/planes falling apart/delays etc. we do have a lot of unhappy campers out there.
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mr paxing... wasnt having a go, just showing you guys why maybe SH are unhappy about losing regional flying... it's in the agreement and we're not getting it. End of story. Yes i know s/h arent the best but neither are l/h. I just hate how there seems to be this 'well too bad for you we're lh and we're entitled to all of the intl flying' mentality...
to be honest at one time it seemed like lh were overwhelmed with the amount of flying and not enough crew so they used sh to allow lh to have some sort of semblance of a life with the rosters... thats all... So its a bit unfair that people bag SH for being upset... thats all. Yes i know it wont change but i wanted to have a vent, everyone else has.
Now about the a380.. why cant they take SH.... LH crew obviously dont want it, they need to get the crew from somewhere. It's a way for SH to get some international flying if that is what they want (and plenty do) but as always the company continues to divide divide divide by specifying who can apply... And before you all say go QCCA... been there done that, not even so much as a thank you!
And no, i have not got bad BPRs, I have had several letters from pax and am already in the company so what exactly DO they want for QCCA? I know i'd be taking a pay cut but it's about the job satisfaction and while i like my job, i didn't join Qantas to see Sydney and Melbourne.
So why won't they let s/h apply for A380 or even just do EOIs to gauge how many of us will be willing to come across to the a380? Also a lot on the QCCA waiting list getting 'no' emails... why are they being so picky? Don't really think they can afford to be with another 9 whales on the way!!!
to be honest at one time it seemed like lh were overwhelmed with the amount of flying and not enough crew so they used sh to allow lh to have some sort of semblance of a life with the rosters... thats all... So its a bit unfair that people bag SH for being upset... thats all. Yes i know it wont change but i wanted to have a vent, everyone else has.
Now about the a380.. why cant they take SH.... LH crew obviously dont want it, they need to get the crew from somewhere. It's a way for SH to get some international flying if that is what they want (and plenty do) but as always the company continues to divide divide divide by specifying who can apply... And before you all say go QCCA... been there done that, not even so much as a thank you!
And no, i have not got bad BPRs, I have had several letters from pax and am already in the company so what exactly DO they want for QCCA? I know i'd be taking a pay cut but it's about the job satisfaction and while i like my job, i didn't join Qantas to see Sydney and Melbourne.
So why won't they let s/h apply for A380 or even just do EOIs to gauge how many of us will be willing to come across to the a380? Also a lot on the QCCA waiting list getting 'no' emails... why are they being so picky? Don't really think they can afford to be with another 9 whales on the way!!!
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How do you know you are not getting 25% in domestic?
What about CNS base?
The reason L/H didn't go for 100% regional flying was to leave enough to keep CNS and PER viable.
If not, you would only have 737 international ops.
Stop complaining before you know the facts.
What about CNS base?
The reason L/H didn't go for 100% regional flying was to leave enough to keep CNS and PER viable.
If not, you would only have 737 international ops.
Stop complaining before you know the facts.
IFE working yet?
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Domestos,
Just wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing info on how you are going across to A380? I know you're going to resign from SH, but since QF is freezing all QCCA recruitment, how do you do it? Have you got the position guaranteed? PM me if you like. I'm another frustrated SH full timer that hates 737 with a passion. Being on the bottom of the seniority list isn't something enjoyable. Thanks heaps.
Just wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing info on how you are going across to A380? I know you're going to resign from SH, but since QF is freezing all QCCA recruitment, how do you do it? Have you got the position guaranteed? PM me if you like. I'm another frustrated SH full timer that hates 737
with a passion. Being on the bottom of the seniority list isn't something enjoyable. Thanks heaps.
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twiggs
The only regional flying domestic is doing under the agreement is Sydney/Cairns/Narita all other flying is 737 and Tasman flying out of Mel which doesnt come under the agreement. Therefore Narita is certainly not 25% of the entire regional flying available more like 1.5% including the Sydney/Melbourne/Perth on the A330 which also comes under the agreement. I suggest you get your facts straight!!
The only regional flying domestic is doing under the agreement is Sydney/Cairns/Narita all other flying is 737 and Tasman flying out of Mel which doesnt come under the agreement. Therefore Narita is certainly not 25% of the entire regional flying available more like 1.5% including the Sydney/Melbourne/Perth on the A330 which also comes under the agreement. I suggest you get your facts straight!!
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Domestos
I thought what I had to say was positive. I told you what you can expect to earn, its a beautiful aircraft the destinations are great. What more would you like to know? It appears your mind is made up and if you are comfortable giving up what you have for the A380 go for it.
No I dont know who you are should I?
I thought what I had to say was positive. I told you what you can expect to earn, its a beautiful aircraft the destinations are great. What more would you like to know? It appears your mind is made up and if you are comfortable giving up what you have for the A380 go for it.
No I dont know who you are should I?
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Twiggs, Galleyhag is correct, the only regional flying being done by shorthaul is NRT, and a few(hardly any) SIN's out of the Sydney base. There are no additional destinations in either the CNS or PER bases.
We are definitely not getting 25%.
We are definitely not getting 25%.
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Ok so now there are a few SIN's out of SYD, not quite what gallyhag stated.
I suggest you make that call and find out what percentage you are actually doing before you make unsubstantiated claims.
I suggest you make that call and find out what percentage you are actually doing before you make unsubstantiated claims.
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Twiggs, this is what I am talking about. If you take the number of international flights and divide by 4, S/h is most ertainly not getting that. I agree the union needs to sort it out. Put people who want to be there on those trips, and the sick leave problem would be solved! I know not all LH crew hate those trips but a good amount of those I've spoken to said they would rather leave the NRT,SIN and HKG out of Perth to the S/H crew.
It's been asked before on crew voice, why can the A330 trips not be done by S/H? The answer given was some vague babble about mx requirements on the 747 fleet! Um, ok but we're asking about AIRBUS here Alison!!!
I'd love to know which crew are doing the SIN shutles out of PER... I've heard they are Jetconnect.... is that true?! If so.... Why?? When clearly that flying should go to the Perth S/H crew who were doing them (happily) in the first place. Even if J/C crew are cheaper, they owuldn't be as cheap as using crew who live in erth and therefore do not need to o/night before ad after that 3 day pattern. Or is this all just a big trick to make S/H see what they miss...?
Anyway I digress. With regard to the A380... if it's ofered to short haul do you think we will have to interview for it? And why can't we apply? If they are so short of crew they sholdn't be dithering over where those crew come from. Embarrassing when you end up with dugongs parked up against the fence due to lack of crew!
It's been asked before on crew voice, why can the A330 trips not be done by S/H? The answer given was some vague babble about mx requirements on the 747 fleet! Um, ok but we're asking about AIRBUS here Alison!!!
I'd love to know which crew are doing the SIN shutles out of PER... I've heard they are Jetconnect.... is that true?! If so.... Why?? When clearly that flying should go to the Perth S/H crew who were doing them (happily) in the first place. Even if J/C crew are cheaper, they owuldn't be as cheap as using crew who live in erth and therefore do not need to o/night before ad after that 3 day pattern. Or is this all just a big trick to make S/H see what they miss...?
Anyway I digress. With regard to the A380... if it's ofered to short haul do you think we will have to interview for it? And why can't we apply? If they are so short of crew they sholdn't be dithering over where those crew come from. Embarrassing when you end up with dugongs parked up against the fence due to lack of crew!
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currently LHR base crew are being trained in syd on the a380. they will return to base
and will train the london crew. when completed syd/mel 380 crew will slip in singapore
and lax only. 48 hour slips in sin once lhr are trained up
and will train the london crew. when completed syd/mel 380 crew will slip in singapore
and lax only. 48 hour slips in sin once lhr are trained up
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A380
This thread wass set up i believe to discuss the A380 warts and all. I am informed by the crew that are doing the EIS flights at the moment that it is a very queit, well designed aircraft and all the crew seem extremely enthusiastic.
A QCCA crew member said to me yesterday that it was the best decision she has ever made as on A380 all crew are equal and will get a fair share of the work.
An sms will be sent the day before giving you a work posistion so that you can prepare for it and crew hotel rooms are allocated randomly not by seniority so one day at the top of the list and perhaps the next somewhere else.
The reason that SH crew cannot apply for the A380 is the same reason that LH crew cannot apply for the 737, its a LH aircraft covered entirely by the LH eba as negotiated by the FAAA.
The 737 is covered by the SH EBA
the A380 is covered by the LH EBA
Any new "International" aircraft will be flown internationally by LOng Haul crew, this is also spelled out in the EBA.
When the A330 is reconfigured as a domestic aircrfat to replace the 767 and the 767 is gone, then all international flying will be done by the LH crew.
the 25%/75% only applies to 767 and A330 international flying.
All other aircraft other than 737 when flown internationally are to be flown by LH crew as negotiated by the FAAA in the EBA.
Hope that clarifies any confusion.
In respect of the 25%...the statistics are there for all to see if you ask the FAAA.
SH are definitely getting 25% of the regional flying. It just may not be as visible in Sydney and Melbourne as one would expect
A QCCA crew member said to me yesterday that it was the best decision she has ever made as on A380 all crew are equal and will get a fair share of the work.
An sms will be sent the day before giving you a work posistion so that you can prepare for it and crew hotel rooms are allocated randomly not by seniority so one day at the top of the list and perhaps the next somewhere else.
The reason that SH crew cannot apply for the A380 is the same reason that LH crew cannot apply for the 737, its a LH aircraft covered entirely by the LH eba as negotiated by the FAAA.
The 737 is covered by the SH EBA
the A380 is covered by the LH EBA
Any new "International" aircraft will be flown internationally by LOng Haul crew, this is also spelled out in the EBA.
When the A330 is reconfigured as a domestic aircrfat to replace the 767 and the 767 is gone, then all international flying will be done by the LH crew.
the 25%/75% only applies to 767 and A330 international flying.
All other aircraft other than 737 when flown internationally are to be flown by LH crew as negotiated by the FAAA in the EBA.
Hope that clarifies any confusion.
In respect of the 25%...the statistics are there for all to see if you ask the FAAA.
SH are definitely getting 25% of the regional flying. It just may not be as visible in Sydney and Melbourne as one would expect
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twiggs
The SIN being done by short haul are operate to perth then operate on the 737 to Dps and Perth and pax home therefore this does not come under the 25% regional flying agreement.
Pegasus747
True but the A330 and 767 are still flying internationally and will be for some time therefore we are entitled to our 25% if you like it or not when the 787 arrives fine but WE are not getting 25% a quick look at the short haul bid books on QFCREW will show you the only regional flying is Sydney/Cairns/Narita and has been since July 2008. Perth get NO regional flying they only fly 737 to Jakarta and Bali and this is not part of the agreement, Brisbane have no regional flying, nor Melbourne and Sydney only as stated. So if you know where this magic 25% of regional flying is please enlighten all of us domestic crew.
Whereas Long Haul do:
Sydney/Shanghai
Sydney/Beijing
Sydney/Adelaide/Singapore
Sydney/Manila
Sydney/Jakarta
Sydney/Hong Kong
Sydney/Tokyo
Sydney/Auckland
Sydney/Christchurch
Sydney/Noumea
Melbourne/Shanghai
Brisbane/Hong Hong
Brisbane/Singapore
Brisbane/Manila
Perth/Singapore
Perth/Hong Kong
Perth/Tokyo
Isnt the 747 a long haul aircraft? Clearly not as short haul crew can operate that aircraft on a LWOP arrangement in LHR. Why cant the same be done on the A380 its a long haul aircraft under seperate company QCCA same thing judt different country.
The SIN being done by short haul are operate to perth then operate on the 737 to Dps and Perth and pax home therefore this does not come under the 25% regional flying agreement.
Pegasus747
True but the A330 and 767 are still flying internationally and will be for some time therefore we are entitled to our 25% if you like it or not when the 787 arrives fine but WE are not getting 25% a quick look at the short haul bid books on QFCREW will show you the only regional flying is Sydney/Cairns/Narita and has been since July 2008. Perth get NO regional flying they only fly 737 to Jakarta and Bali and this is not part of the agreement, Brisbane have no regional flying, nor Melbourne and Sydney only as stated. So if you know where this magic 25% of regional flying is please enlighten all of us domestic crew.
Whereas Long Haul do:
Sydney/Shanghai
Sydney/Beijing
Sydney/Adelaide/Singapore
Sydney/Manila
Sydney/Jakarta
Sydney/Hong Kong
Sydney/Tokyo
Sydney/Auckland
Sydney/Christchurch
Sydney/Noumea
Melbourne/Shanghai
Brisbane/Hong Hong
Brisbane/Singapore
Brisbane/Manila
Perth/Singapore
Perth/Hong Kong
Perth/Tokyo
Isnt the 747 a long haul aircraft? Clearly not as short haul crew can operate that aircraft on a LWOP arrangement in LHR. Why cant the same be done on the A380 its a long haul aircraft under seperate company QCCA same thing judt different country.
Last edited by GalleyHag; 7th Oct 2008 at 12:38.