Ba, Lcy-jfk
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Well thank you FF i am not trying to be provocative to Glamgirl ,jetset and Matt101 and i am not anti mainline, but what these guys have on their doorstep is their own openskies dilemma .Cityflyer has no union agrements in place and no scheduling agreements either, they use cap371 as their basis,unfortunatley this gives the crews very limited protection in day to day operational use unfortunate for them, but good from the company point of view. Now my point is because of this situation it makes the Cityflyer crews flexible and lets face it cheap to use, again i am not anti union either and i would like to see a union in Cityflyer but this is just not happening at the moment hopefully this will change in the future. Ok Glamgirl etc etc how would you have reacted if the announcement had been that Cityflyer had been given the route? would you have spoken to your union rep about it? kicked up a fuss ? dont blame you if you had ,i would have in your place, but your union could have done nothing about it because BA have Cityflyer outside of union control at the moment, it would have been your unions fault for letting the route slip away from you guys but what could they have done ? You have to realise you have a sizeable workforce on your doorstep that are cheap to use on routes like JFK with none of the old union agreements in place and no old working practices, again from a company point of view a dream scenario for them. If i was LHR/LGW crew i would want my union to be getting Cityflyer unionised to stop them from undermining my current terms and conditions and working practices otherwise you could find that Cityflyer become your trojan horse. Glamgirl ask around some of your workmates who have come from the regions over the last coupla years and ask them about BAConnect, oh be prepared to duck as well cos you will probably get an angry reaction. BAConnect was the the regions trojan horse the tool used to break that up. BACityflyer is what is left of that company the bit that didnt get flogged to Flymaybe.
Last edited by marlowe; 4th Sep 2008 at 09:52.
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Club World.
BA named best business airline
The readers of top travel magazine Conde Nast Traveller have voted British Airways the best business airline.
BA scooped the title ahead of Virgin Atlantic, last year’s winner Singapore Airlines, Emirates and Lufthansa.
BA was also voted second in the best shorthaul leisure travel airline category and third in the best longhaul leisure category.
Commercial director Robert Boyle said: “We know we have a fabulous, market-leading business product, so it is fantastic that it is being recognised in this way.
“We are constantly striving to improve the service we provide in our Club World cabin and this award is testament to the hard work of staff across the airline.”
The readers of top travel magazine Conde Nast Traveller have voted British Airways the best business airline.
BA scooped the title ahead of Virgin Atlantic, last year’s winner Singapore Airlines, Emirates and Lufthansa.
BA was also voted second in the best shorthaul leisure travel airline category and third in the best longhaul leisure category.
Commercial director Robert Boyle said: “We know we have a fabulous, market-leading business product, so it is fantastic that it is being recognised in this way.
“We are constantly striving to improve the service we provide in our Club World cabin and this award is testament to the hard work of staff across the airline.”
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Marlowe, I can totally see where you are coming from but a lot of your arguement rests on CityFlyer crew being cheaper than LGW crew and I am not sure if that is actually true. I am happy to be corrected on this but it is my understanding that your basic pay is higher than LGW and you get London Weighting which LGW do not. I'm not saying this to be antagonistic but just trying to get my head around BA's decision.
Another thing I ought to point out is that duty time limits can backfire against mainline crew. Time and again during delays I have lost trips due to the agreements in place. Say you have a 3 day trip and you are late on sector one, you may well end up doing a there-and-back and losing the night stop because you will be 10 minutes short of the 90 minute turnaround requirement (or whatever it was back then for the CAT lounge). On any other airline, you would be perfectly able to complete the trip pattern but because of the agreements, you are prevented. So they do work both ways, believe me.
I think you may have LGW T&Cs confused with Mainline EF/WW T&Cs. Although LGW is mainline now (since 2006, I believe) they have always operated under harsher conditions than other mainline fleets since the Dan-Air buy out. I would be interested to see how LGW T&Cs (which are derived from EOG T&Cs) compare with CityFlyer's.
Anyway, I want to stress that I am posting in the interests of clearing the air, not to tread on any toes.
Another thing I ought to point out is that duty time limits can backfire against mainline crew. Time and again during delays I have lost trips due to the agreements in place. Say you have a 3 day trip and you are late on sector one, you may well end up doing a there-and-back and losing the night stop because you will be 10 minutes short of the 90 minute turnaround requirement (or whatever it was back then for the CAT lounge). On any other airline, you would be perfectly able to complete the trip pattern but because of the agreements, you are prevented. So they do work both ways, believe me.
I think you may have LGW T&Cs confused with Mainline EF/WW T&Cs. Although LGW is mainline now (since 2006, I believe) they have always operated under harsher conditions than other mainline fleets since the Dan-Air buy out. I would be interested to see how LGW T&Cs (which are derived from EOG T&Cs) compare with CityFlyer's.
Anyway, I want to stress that I am posting in the interests of clearing the air, not to tread on any toes.
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Marlowe fair enough but your language suggests something different like I said before I think cityflyer is a lovely little operation that does the brand proud actually if you had gotten the route yes I would have been somewhat disapponted but I was actually expecting your fleet to get it. I said as much before. All I'm pointing out is you seem to suggest we shouldn't be doing it for some reason.
These forums are a pain in they have no tone of voice so I think here is some misunderstanding going on.
At the moment be company feel that Gatwick fleet should operate the cabin service but it may change in the future.
Equally I'd like to see things improve for you guys at cityflyer. Good union arrangements may seem like a barrier for the company sometimes esp with some unions brig somewhat millitant but when relationships are good they can be beneficial
Also FWIW lgw crew's only allowance is a 2.40 an hour flight pay on a basic which is lower than cityflyers and our overtime wouldn't be triggered on this route so we are only about 60p an hour more expensive in the scheme of things yet we require no additional training to operate this route. Also fwiw the club world service does require a bit of getting used to as I learnt when
moving from lhr to lgw's new fleet.
Anyway lucky you win blue eyes mine actually are green
Best,
Matt k
These forums are a pain in they have no tone of voice so I think here is some misunderstanding going on.
At the moment be company feel that Gatwick fleet should operate the cabin service but it may change in the future.
Equally I'd like to see things improve for you guys at cityflyer. Good union arrangements may seem like a barrier for the company sometimes esp with some unions brig somewhat millitant but when relationships are good they can be beneficial
Also FWIW lgw crew's only allowance is a 2.40 an hour flight pay on a basic which is lower than cityflyers and our overtime wouldn't be triggered on this route so we are only about 60p an hour more expensive in the scheme of things yet we require no additional training to operate this route. Also fwiw the club world service does require a bit of getting used to as I learnt when
moving from lhr to lgw's new fleet.
Anyway lucky you win blue eyes mine actually are green
Best,
Matt k
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VS there are no terms and conditions as such, any "agreements" are just CAP371 the crews have no roster protection at all trips can be changed on you as you report at base you think you are going to Madrid nope you are going to Frankfurt instead this brings up lots of lifestyle issues and problems.I am not knocking the company they are just taking advantage of a situation that has arisen because the unions dont seem interested in BAcityflyer at the moment ,hey if you ran the company you would probably do the same i know i would! only the LCY based crew get london Weighting a situation that the EDI based crews dont like very much for obvious reasons and dont even mention tax free FDP .
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Well Matt you beat me on FDP it was supposed to be £2.20 tax free but that never happened, so in reallity my FDP is £1.89 give or take a penny or two and as for overtime payments whats that???? agree with you that not hearing tone of voice is a drawback i can honestly tell you that i have no envious feelings towards mainline i think that you guys would benefit from knowing Cityflyer better and what it does .
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ha fair enough our flight pay is not wholly tax fee either but it is still the company paying the tax for us both so not really a factor for them as they still forking out the money whether it be to us or hmrc as for overtime I haven't triggered it since dfw and iah went up the road you have to do 13 hours of flying time to get it so I'm not sure what it like like either!
I'm playing devils advocate here really
I'm playing devils advocate here really
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Couple of points - non partisan.
1. Technically, no-one has roster protection. Last minute roster changes happen on all fleets, it just doesn't happen on WW too much, so you don't hear of it. I've seen first hand, a young mother turning up for a quick BFS shuttle only to be sent away on a three day 8 sector trip. She had all of 10 minutes to organise child care, school runs etc.
As far as LGW is concerned, I don't recall much in the way of protection and duty time limitation beyond minimum CAA levels. Again, happy to be proved wrong. Yes, they are unionised and yes, they have agreements but I think you are over-estimating their effectiveness. Again, it is not LHR. Talk to anyone from LGW who were hired under EOG.
2. When I went from EF to WW, my service training for Club World was a hand-out, that's it. Oh, end I ended up working in FIRST on my first LH flight - LOS. I honestly don't think that service training has anything to do with the operation and the choice of base. That would involve forethought and inter-departmental communication. Not a BA strong point.
1. Technically, no-one has roster protection. Last minute roster changes happen on all fleets, it just doesn't happen on WW too much, so you don't hear of it. I've seen first hand, a young mother turning up for a quick BFS shuttle only to be sent away on a three day 8 sector trip. She had all of 10 minutes to organise child care, school runs etc.
As far as LGW is concerned, I don't recall much in the way of protection and duty time limitation beyond minimum CAA levels. Again, happy to be proved wrong. Yes, they are unionised and yes, they have agreements but I think you are over-estimating their effectiveness. Again, it is not LHR. Talk to anyone from LGW who were hired under EOG.
2. When I went from EF to WW, my service training for Club World was a hand-out, that's it. Oh, end I ended up working in FIRST on my first LH flight - LOS. I honestly don't think that service training has anything to do with the operation and the choice of base. That would involve forethought and inter-departmental communication. Not a BA strong point.
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Slight aside from the topic. Here at Waterworld and CBK we are looking at reintroducing a raft of CC continuation training for all CC grades. As you may well know NECC for the last 6 months were awarded an NVQ on completion of training. This criterion will at some stage be applied to attain the rank of Purser / CSM and requirements for those who remain as CC for their entire career.
It is being developed by an outside company / associate trainers many of whom are ex BA CC. Like everything with BA it may turn out to be a worthwhile exercise or as happens all to often a waste of time and resources.
It is being developed by an outside company / associate trainers many of whom are ex BA CC. Like everything with BA it may turn out to be a worthwhile exercise or as happens all to often a waste of time and resources.
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First of all: VS, how can you have worked in First on your first long haul flight? At WW, there are crew specifically trained and rostered to work in First. But that's beside the point.
Marlowe, a few things for you.
I do realise that you want Cityflyer to do the lcy-nyc route as you say you're the cheapest option. But are you really? You would have to be trained on the following:
A318
Club World product and service
Also, you would need US Visas (two of them)
It may not seem like that would cost much, but a Visa is around $80 per crew member (plus transport). Yes, BA could force you to pay for it yourself, but you still need the day off to go to the embassy in London.
To be able to train you, you will need to be on the ground, ie not operating flights. As has been pointed out previously, you don't have "spare" crew to take off line for training. (Please do not confuse this with capabilities)
You keep saying that BA don't want you to have a union and that the unions are not interested in you. It's fairly easy to set up, but you need all the crew to join in the "fight". You can't do it on your own. Contact a union and ask them what you need to do to set up a LCY department. Unions will not chase you, you have to approach them. They can then advise you on how to get recognition from the company, how to recruit members, elect reps and so on. If you want better working conditions for yourself and your colleagues, you have to do something about it.
At LGW, the only rosta stability we have is the following:
Our days off are set in stone, they cannot be changed on a whim from scheduling. The only time this would not apply is if we get stuck down route for some reason (tech, weather etc) and can't come back in time. We then get another day off (lieu day), although it's difficult to get it allocated.
A change to the rosta which means a clear time (finish time) or more than 3 hours later must be notified to the crew member at least 24 hours before duty commences. This means when I turn up work work later, I can be doing something completely different, but as long as I finish within 3 hours of normal finish time. (This can still play havoc with plans such as child care, appointments etc).
What I'm trying to say is that LGW is mainline, but not the glamorous version. We get paid macadamia nuts (a tiny bit more than peanuts), and we are dependant on longer trips to be able to house, clothe and feed ourselves. For crew with children or other dependants, it is a difficult juggling act. (I'm not saying it isn't for Cityflyer crew as well).
The company decided to operate the LCY-NYC route with LGW crew. Basically it must be the cheapest option, as otherwise you would be operating it. I don't know how and why the company do their figures, but I'm sure there's a method in the madness somewhere.
Do fight for a union though, get your friends together and make it your mission to fight for better conditions for LCY (and EDI) crew.
ATB,
Gg
Marlowe, a few things for you.
I do realise that you want Cityflyer to do the lcy-nyc route as you say you're the cheapest option. But are you really? You would have to be trained on the following:
A318
Club World product and service
Also, you would need US Visas (two of them)
It may not seem like that would cost much, but a Visa is around $80 per crew member (plus transport). Yes, BA could force you to pay for it yourself, but you still need the day off to go to the embassy in London.
To be able to train you, you will need to be on the ground, ie not operating flights. As has been pointed out previously, you don't have "spare" crew to take off line for training. (Please do not confuse this with capabilities)
You keep saying that BA don't want you to have a union and that the unions are not interested in you. It's fairly easy to set up, but you need all the crew to join in the "fight". You can't do it on your own. Contact a union and ask them what you need to do to set up a LCY department. Unions will not chase you, you have to approach them. They can then advise you on how to get recognition from the company, how to recruit members, elect reps and so on. If you want better working conditions for yourself and your colleagues, you have to do something about it.
At LGW, the only rosta stability we have is the following:
Our days off are set in stone, they cannot be changed on a whim from scheduling. The only time this would not apply is if we get stuck down route for some reason (tech, weather etc) and can't come back in time. We then get another day off (lieu day), although it's difficult to get it allocated.
A change to the rosta which means a clear time (finish time) or more than 3 hours later must be notified to the crew member at least 24 hours before duty commences. This means when I turn up work work later, I can be doing something completely different, but as long as I finish within 3 hours of normal finish time. (This can still play havoc with plans such as child care, appointments etc).
What I'm trying to say is that LGW is mainline, but not the glamorous version. We get paid macadamia nuts (a tiny bit more than peanuts), and we are dependant on longer trips to be able to house, clothe and feed ourselves. For crew with children or other dependants, it is a difficult juggling act. (I'm not saying it isn't for Cityflyer crew as well).
The company decided to operate the LCY-NYC route with LGW crew. Basically it must be the cheapest option, as otherwise you would be operating it. I don't know how and why the company do their figures, but I'm sure there's a method in the madness somewhere.
Do fight for a union though, get your friends together and make it your mission to fight for better conditions for LCY (and EDI) crew.
ATB,
Gg
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Glamgirl training on a different type of aircraft costs peanuts in the grand scheme of things or even macademia nuts, and as for getting a visa i put it to you again its not the most costliest thing to do if you are making a saving in the long term and once again you cling to the notion that club world training is a specialist thing that only special people can do. If that is the best defence you can come up with for doing the route ,well its not the best !There will be union involvment at Cityflyer the company wont be able to stop it but they are delaying it as much as they can, but dont worry Glamgirl myself and my friends will carry on. Also you make the assumption that we wanted to do the route i have never said that, all i have ever said is that the cheapest option to crew it would be Cityflyer crew . Oh and thanks for the lesson on how to go about getting a union involved myself and my friends hadnt thought of doing that, we are not country bumpkins you know, we are fully aware of how to go about getting a union, the problem is the unions are not interested in Cityflyer as they have demonstrated the last 18 months.
Last edited by marlowe; 5th Sep 2008 at 11:10.
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Lcy-Nyc could not be fully crewed by Citiflyer crew as the pilots would not be able to operate the 318 under the Scope agreement. Having a 'half half' arrangement of mainline flight crew and citi flyer cabin crew would cause a huge bun fight.
The 318 is an aircraft designed (note 'designed') to carry in excess of 100 pax therefore it will be crewed by mainline flight crew and thus mainline cabin crew.
Sorry to pop your bubble.
The 318 is an aircraft designed (note 'designed') to carry in excess of 100 pax therefore it will be crewed by mainline flight crew and thus mainline cabin crew.
Sorry to pop your bubble.
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Wobble little do you know about it ,yea yea we all know about the scope agreement didnt stop the MAN JFK being crewed by BAconnect crew with mainline flightdeck on the 767 did it? where was the scope agreement then?
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Great argument - good luck Marlowe. Might I suggest, than say " the cheapest" the term "more cost effective" may be more appropriate - From what I have seen and experienced, the Cabin Crew at Cityflyer, are more than capable of undertaking a Premium Class service from LCY to NCY.
FF
FF
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glamgirl: I was an lhr temp and operated first once there are specifically trained crew but sometimes there aren't enough and sometimes you can ask for the experience.
As for cityflyer being the cheapest crew or lgw nobody acrualt knows apart from those that did the cost anlysis. Whatever you may think everything else is speculation.
I think this is starting to turn into an unnecessary p**sing contest really
Matt x
As for cityflyer being the cheapest crew or lgw nobody acrualt knows apart from those that did the cost anlysis. Whatever you may think everything else is speculation.
I think this is starting to turn into an unnecessary p**sing contest really
Matt x
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Just read all the posts, and a little thought has occured to me..would this debate be going on if say the new BA business route from LCY was to say DME (Moscow) as a there and back. Rather than a nightstop in New York and poss a night in SNN on the way out.
As for cost etc..LGW crew (if its a night stop SNN first) could actually report at LGW, have a full brief and still position by road to LCY op. to SNN and still be in hours without even triggering overtime.
As for cost etc..LGW crew (if its a night stop SNN first) could actually report at LGW, have a full brief and still position by road to LCY op. to SNN and still be in hours without even triggering overtime.
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Might it take longer most times than a shorthaul flight duration viz LGW-LCY by road. It is a horendous journey at any time of the day and will lead to crew being hotac'd at LCY which will push the costs up.
As for the issue of costs the first year of most ops are written off anyway and here at CBK and Waterworld we are squandering monies on a daily basis, crisis, recession, not much sign of it here. Another tranch of new management grades as we speak.
As for the issue of costs the first year of most ops are written off anyway and here at CBK and Waterworld we are squandering monies on a daily basis, crisis, recession, not much sign of it here. Another tranch of new management grades as we speak.
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It seems to have escaped everyone that it has already been reported on this thread that BA intend on operating the service with LGW crew in a W pattern hooked up with the LGW-JFK service with the euro nightstop in LCY!