Ba, Lcy-jfk
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but with a LGW-LCY coach trip beforehand? Any delay and the crew could go out of hours, possibly in SNN. Could get messy. Best practice would be nightstop LCY before the trip.
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Immagration / weather will be a Big factor on this the route ,
and the crew will have to be bused from North Terminal to London
City Airport.
I think it should be BA Cityflyer crew who do this route, and for BA Citflyer
to have the A318 on all there routes would be so much nicer then the RJ'S
All this has to be passed by the unions, both Cabin Crew and Flight Crew..
What do you folks at BA Cityflyer think ?
and the crew will have to be bused from North Terminal to London
City Airport.
I think it should be BA Cityflyer crew who do this route, and for BA Citflyer
to have the A318 on all there routes would be so much nicer then the RJ'S
All this has to be passed by the unions, both Cabin Crew and Flight Crew..
What do you folks at BA Cityflyer think ?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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No doubt BA would be quite happy with that in theory.
Unfortunately for them, the pilot's Scope agreement (which is now legally binding!*) means that if the RJs are replaced with aircraft designed to have more than 100 seats, whether they are fitted or not (the A318 is designed to have a minimum of 108), then all the flying must revert to BA mainline pilots from Cityflyer pilots. What that would likely mean in practice is that the current Cityflyer pilots would transfer to BA mainline with all that entails (the option to bid onto longhaul fleets for example). However, as the mainline pilot cost-base is likely to be higher, along with the salaries, BA will likely as not try to avoid this option as long as possible - probably until someone designs a 99 seater which is approved to operate into LCY. Expect the 146/RJ to continue in service for a while yet.
* The one good thing to come out of the Open Skies debacle.
Unfortunately for them, the pilot's Scope agreement (which is now legally binding!*) means that if the RJs are replaced with aircraft designed to have more than 100 seats, whether they are fitted or not (the A318 is designed to have a minimum of 108), then all the flying must revert to BA mainline pilots from Cityflyer pilots. What that would likely mean in practice is that the current Cityflyer pilots would transfer to BA mainline with all that entails (the option to bid onto longhaul fleets for example). However, as the mainline pilot cost-base is likely to be higher, along with the salaries, BA will likely as not try to avoid this option as long as possible - probably until someone designs a 99 seater which is approved to operate into LCY. Expect the 146/RJ to continue in service for a while yet.
* The one good thing to come out of the Open Skies debacle.
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The LCY-NYC is a mainline service and therefore will not be operated by a subsidery such as Cityflyer.
Now a "w" pattern does seem the most likely. Simply because they do not get paid the same B2B payments the LHR crew get and the airline get three more working days from the week out of their crew without having to give extra days off! The LHR crew have been doing the LHR-EWR/JFK-MAN-JFK/EWR-LHR "W" pattern now for well over a year without the B2B payment.
Now a "w" pattern does seem the most likely. Simply because they do not get paid the same B2B payments the LHR crew get and the airline get three more working days from the week out of their crew without having to give extra days off! The LHR crew have been doing the LHR-EWR/JFK-MAN-JFK/EWR-LHR "W" pattern now for well over a year without the B2B payment.
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direct LCY report for LGW mainline crew simply not an option with their current agreement
We wish to augment your agreement with a volunteer arrangement by which a core group of volunteers will report directly to LCY to operate the JFK service. If insufficient volunteers come forward the service will be crewed from LHR.
Hugs and Kisses,
BA Management
Do you think they'll be short of volunteers?
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The LCY-NYC is a mainline service and therefore will not be operated by a subsidery such as Cityflyer.
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But Openskies is not a BA mainline service. It is a subsidary operating its own flights!!!
There is nothing in the BASSA clause, or the CC89 ones for that matter. But this is to be totally branded as BA and thus will be operated by mainline crews. I dont know the ins and outs of it but its a given I am afraid! Now Colombus could result in something different! LOL!
There is nothing in the BASSA clause, or the CC89 ones for that matter. But this is to be totally branded as BA and thus will be operated by mainline crews. I dont know the ins and outs of it but its a given I am afraid! Now Colombus could result in something different! LOL!
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But this is to be totally branded as BA and thus will be operated by mainline crews.
On the other hand BA may just use it as a carrot to get BASSA around the table for other concessions - that is the BA way of 2008
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On non-standard product by the way. 3-4-3 on the 777. I remember operating on it as a substitute for the standard 3 class (at the time) and we needed dispensation from the unions to do it. Read into that what you will.
As for direct report at LCY. I can remember when we had a WW base at LGW, if we ever picked up a LHR trip (which did happen) we still had to report at LGW even if we lived closer to LHR, even if you were diff crew and had no other crew to meet at LGW. Apparently it was because it was in the agreement and couldn't be changed. I know SF LGW is a different agreement to WW but it does make you wonder.
As for direct report at LCY. I can remember when we had a WW base at LGW, if we ever picked up a LHR trip (which did happen) we still had to report at LGW even if we lived closer to LHR, even if you were diff crew and had no other crew to meet at LGW. Apparently it was because it was in the agreement and couldn't be changed. I know SF LGW is a different agreement to WW but it does make you wonder.
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First is my Airline, 2nd is my base.
VS-LHRCSA
I heard that from an ex AML crew member that the Y Class cabin seating
was 3-4-3.
That must of been a tight squeeze.. just did a BGI trip and was shocked to see down the back on the 4 class we have lost a toilet, we only have 4 toilets on a 4 class now in Y class. but i did manage to get some sleep as we did not have passengers chatting loudly around the crew rest area. And it gives me more space with my trolley .. As I always wack the back of the first person in the last row, If any SLF are reading this I AM SORRY!! I don't do it on Purpose.
About the 3-4-3 any links to a Picture of the old AML operated Service,
I know I'm going off thread but why did BA have AML do these routes ?
Now back to Topic .. I'm thinking BA crew had to position to LHR from LGW , oop's it can be done then. I just hope we get 4 crew members on the A319.
P.s Single fleet is now called "Gatwick Fleet" as we operate the Airbus now out of gatter's / Sand PIT / LGW- Let's get wanted, the list goes on .. And I love the Airbus Short haul fleet, I will not be sad to see the 737's go
I heard that from an ex AML crew member that the Y Class cabin seating
was 3-4-3.
That must of been a tight squeeze.. just did a BGI trip and was shocked to see down the back on the 4 class we have lost a toilet, we only have 4 toilets on a 4 class now in Y class. but i did manage to get some sleep as we did not have passengers chatting loudly around the crew rest area. And it gives me more space with my trolley .. As I always wack the back of the first person in the last row, If any SLF are reading this I AM SORRY!! I don't do it on Purpose.
About the 3-4-3 any links to a Picture of the old AML operated Service,
I know I'm going off thread but why did BA have AML do these routes ?
Now back to Topic .. I'm thinking BA crew had to position to LHR from LGW , oop's it can be done then. I just hope we get 4 crew members on the A319.
P.s Single fleet is now called "Gatwick Fleet" as we operate the Airbus now out of gatter's / Sand PIT / LGW- Let's get wanted, the list goes on .. And I love the Airbus Short haul fleet, I will not be sad to see the 737's go
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I do not think I have explained myself correctly. The LCY flights are a BA Mainline service with a BA mainline product and as such must be operated by a BA mainline base as per our AOC, nothing to do with union clauses, something a lot of crew in BA seem oblivious too.
There are exceptions to the rule however such was when Hire ins or required for technical reasons or if a wet lease is signed with an operator. However if it is to be operated by another set of crew such as cityflyer then it has to be on cityflyer metal and operated as a franchise service!!! As is my understanding of the whole operation. Now there is nothing to stop BA setting up an LCY base on cheaper T&Cs but then that would have its own additional costs and perhaps not worth it just for two daily flights!
I do not know how the AML thing worked with the 777s in LGW but I do know that the flights were operated as "British Airways by AML" or something to that effect even though they were BA metal with BA pilots, either way there was a clear and distinct differentiation made as to who was working on those flights with the customer!
There are exceptions to the rule however such was when Hire ins or required for technical reasons or if a wet lease is signed with an operator. However if it is to be operated by another set of crew such as cityflyer then it has to be on cityflyer metal and operated as a franchise service!!! As is my understanding of the whole operation. Now there is nothing to stop BA setting up an LCY base on cheaper T&Cs but then that would have its own additional costs and perhaps not worth it just for two daily flights!
I do not know how the AML thing worked with the 777s in LGW but I do know that the flights were operated as "British Airways by AML" or something to that effect even though they were BA metal with BA pilots, either way there was a clear and distinct differentiation made as to who was working on those flights with the customer!
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Flower Duet,
I remember working on the old AML aircraft at WW LGW not so long ago. They were eventually converted into the first 3 class 777's at LGW but shortly after their time with AML they had the 3-4-3 config removed and a standard 3-3-3 config put in. However the galley layouts remained the same. What we had was then 4 rows (i think) of OLD OLD OLD club world (the cradle seat) between doors 1 to 2. Then the galley at doors two was actually the cross aisle aswell so was literally sandwiched between the doors (ever been on an a-class at lhr...same idea) and then it was WT all the way from doors 2 to doors 4 (no WT+) with a break at doors 3 for toilets.
It was a bloody hard plane to work on, if you think KIN or MCO is bad now can you imagine what it was like full on a 2 class??? The only good thing was that we had two seperate galleys for WT (unlike the current 3 class which has a totally wasted galley) and the service ran very smoothly with four corners done in each cabin section!
I remember working on the old AML aircraft at WW LGW not so long ago. They were eventually converted into the first 3 class 777's at LGW but shortly after their time with AML they had the 3-4-3 config removed and a standard 3-3-3 config put in. However the galley layouts remained the same. What we had was then 4 rows (i think) of OLD OLD OLD club world (the cradle seat) between doors 1 to 2. Then the galley at doors two was actually the cross aisle aswell so was literally sandwiched between the doors (ever been on an a-class at lhr...same idea) and then it was WT all the way from doors 2 to doors 4 (no WT+) with a break at doors 3 for toilets.
It was a bloody hard plane to work on, if you think KIN or MCO is bad now can you imagine what it was like full on a 2 class??? The only good thing was that we had two seperate galleys for WT (unlike the current 3 class which has a totally wasted galley) and the service ran very smoothly with four corners done in each cabin section!
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Paddy two thing about your previous posts BAcityflyer is not a franchise operation but a wholly owned subsidary of BA and also BAconect cabin crew used to operate the MAN JFK with mainline flightdeck, and a mainline/BAR CSD and that was not on BAconnect "metal" as you put it .
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I have WAY too much time on my hands!
Sorry to be pernickety but the AML 777 did have a different galley layout to the ones we got when the AML routes came back in 2002.
I saw a seat map recently and at doors 2 where there was a toilet and a side galley unit (drinks trollies from memory) on the WW LGW 'two class' the actually had seats in pairs along the sides of the galley like charter. The club cabin was half the size, with somthing like 3 rows of Cradle seats.
door door
xx xxx xx
xx xxx xx
xx xxx xx
xx xxxx xx
xxx xxxx xxx
xxx xxxx xxx
xx xxxx xx
xx galley xx
door door
xx galley xx
xx galley xx
xx xxxx xx
xxx xxxx xxx
xxx xxxx xxx
This is also how I remember it on the 'sub' flight we did. From memory it was the second IAH with a bunch of downgraded passengers from FIRST into Cradle Seat Club and a heap of Club pax downgraded into 3-4-3 but we were so quite that pretty much everyone got a row to themselves. I would HATE to think what it would have been like full.
Flower Duet, from what I understand AML was brought in during the early nineties (on the DC-10, fab) for lower yielding routes that needed volume to make it financially worthwhile to operate. Again, to bring the cost down, they outsourced the cabin crew to a company apparently owned by the current CEO's wife, AML (almost mainline). AML crew wore our then uniform but were employed by this external company that was part of an airline at the time called Flying Colours (which merged with AirWorld and Caledonian to become JMC, which then went on to become Thomas Cook). These are the facts as I remember them and am happy to be corrected if I'm wrong - it happens from time to time
AML crews would have been cheaper than the WW crew that were based at LGW at the time. When Rod Eddington (Skippy) came along, the many routes from LGW cut from 45, to 14. The AML arrangement scrapped and remaining routes given back to WW LGW.
Here endeth the lesson
I saw a seat map recently and at doors 2 where there was a toilet and a side galley unit (drinks trollies from memory) on the WW LGW 'two class' the actually had seats in pairs along the sides of the galley like charter. The club cabin was half the size, with somthing like 3 rows of Cradle seats.
door door
xx xxx xx
xx xxx xx
xx xxx xx
xx xxxx xx
xxx xxxx xxx
xxx xxxx xxx
xx xxxx xx
xx galley xx
door door
xx galley xx
xx galley xx
xx xxxx xx
xxx xxxx xxx
xxx xxxx xxx
This is also how I remember it on the 'sub' flight we did. From memory it was the second IAH with a bunch of downgraded passengers from FIRST into Cradle Seat Club and a heap of Club pax downgraded into 3-4-3 but we were so quite that pretty much everyone got a row to themselves. I would HATE to think what it would have been like full.
Flower Duet, from what I understand AML was brought in during the early nineties (on the DC-10, fab) for lower yielding routes that needed volume to make it financially worthwhile to operate. Again, to bring the cost down, they outsourced the cabin crew to a company apparently owned by the current CEO's wife, AML (almost mainline). AML crew wore our then uniform but were employed by this external company that was part of an airline at the time called Flying Colours (which merged with AirWorld and Caledonian to become JMC, which then went on to become Thomas Cook). These are the facts as I remember them and am happy to be corrected if I'm wrong - it happens from time to time
AML crews would have been cheaper than the WW crew that were based at LGW at the time. When Rod Eddington (Skippy) came along, the many routes from LGW cut from 45, to 14. The AML arrangement scrapped and remaining routes given back to WW LGW.
Here endeth the lesson
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We as LGW crew will fly the lcy-nyc route for a few different reasons: we're "profitable" (ie cheap), we're premium trained (route marketed as club+) and we already have an agreement for both short and long haul operation.
In regards to how the logistics of it will work, nothing is decided yet, as talks/negotiations have just started. If we were to operate as our MOA currently states, we could do the lgw-lcy-snn on day 1, nightstop snn and head to nyc on day 2. Currently, we can't operate long and short haul on the same day, so the MOA will have to be re-written if the decision to operate lcy-snn-nyc on the same day is made.
For those who are interested, the aircraft is a specially built A318, 32 seats, all forward facing Club seats. Operated by 3 C/C. No hold luggage or cargo (weight and time restrictions). Customs cleared during refuel in snn.
I'm really looking forward to this one!
Gg
Ps. We currently don't have an agreement for W pattern or B2B operations.
In regards to how the logistics of it will work, nothing is decided yet, as talks/negotiations have just started. If we were to operate as our MOA currently states, we could do the lgw-lcy-snn on day 1, nightstop snn and head to nyc on day 2. Currently, we can't operate long and short haul on the same day, so the MOA will have to be re-written if the decision to operate lcy-snn-nyc on the same day is made.
For those who are interested, the aircraft is a specially built A318, 32 seats, all forward facing Club seats. Operated by 3 C/C. No hold luggage or cargo (weight and time restrictions). Customs cleared during refuel in snn.
I'm really looking forward to this one!
Gg
Ps. We currently don't have an agreement for W pattern or B2B operations.
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apaddyinuk , Thank you for the info and VS-LHRCSA, great diagram ..
and good god how did you do that ? and cheers for the info about AML,
(Almost Mainline) I heard they used to call the crew that.
Hi Glamgirl ..
I do hope it's going to be 4 crew on the Aircraft, Also how did you get all
the gossip about the new Service ? No hold luggage, Cargo and forward facing club seat's sound's good though.
You late we don't wait !! and no bags to worry about etc..
Do you think it will be a Nightstop at SNN ? rumour says it will be,
anymore gossip much appreciated
and good god how did you do that ? and cheers for the info about AML,
(Almost Mainline) I heard they used to call the crew that.
Hi Glamgirl ..
I do hope it's going to be 4 crew on the Aircraft, Also how did you get all
the gossip about the new Service ? No hold luggage, Cargo and forward facing club seat's sound's good though.
You late we don't wait !! and no bags to worry about etc..
Do you think it will be a Nightstop at SNN ? rumour says it will be,
anymore gossip much appreciated