BA BASSA Message - TUPE
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Maybe you are missing the crux of my post, ai the Real World catching up to people that shouldn't be doing the job, but are only there to do it because it's a very very nice little earner in their 40's on 50% contracts. Hoovering around the First and Club gallies and not giving a stuffings about the rest of the company (ai Gatwick etc).
And don't worry, I am not being biased, I try to inform myself and when I see cabin crew laugh and say, I can't believe how much I am earning for such easy work then I know that eventually the real world will catch up.
I hope you guys will be okay though, but I can not see it happening with a Management thats hell bent on going about business in the wrong way seeking confrontation and resent instead of meaningful dialogue. I guess you wouldn't get a different tack from a to the core corrupt union like BASSA.
Funny seeing the same faces in Singapore all the time whilst others can't get them for their requests for years.......hmmmm funny that.
And don't worry, I am not being biased, I try to inform myself and when I see cabin crew laugh and say, I can't believe how much I am earning for such easy work then I know that eventually the real world will catch up.
I hope you guys will be okay though, but I can not see it happening with a Management thats hell bent on going about business in the wrong way seeking confrontation and resent instead of meaningful dialogue. I guess you wouldn't get a different tack from a to the core corrupt union like BASSA.
Funny seeing the same faces in Singapore all the time whilst others can't get them for their requests for years.......hmmmm funny that.
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PC767,
For info I think you'll find that the £2.50 is paid for time away from base not flying hours so the 900 hour limit will not come into it.
So for a HKG for instance TAFB is 82 odd hours you would get around £210. Not great, but better than what you were thinking.
For info I think you'll find that the £2.50 is paid for time away from base not flying hours so the 900 hour limit will not come into it.
So for a HKG for instance TAFB is 82 odd hours you would get around £210. Not great, but better than what you were thinking.
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Ok, I don't have BA's proposals about the hourly rate and when it would apply, so I have no reason to argue with your figure, but I am aware that the maximum duty per annum is 2000hrs of which 900hrs are flight time. So working on 2000hrs that still amounts to a variable pay of £5000.
To those concerned that these hours are part time, well I'm afraid they are set by European legislation and apply to all flying crew, (including those 'part time' captains on £100k - your inference not mine!). Prior to the introduction of the work time directive world wide crew averaged 1200hrs flying time, and many would be happy to see the restrictions lifted.
To those concerned about the lack of qualifications needed to apply for cabin crew, well, cannot argue with that. Major airlines including BA have a tough recruitment process and a high refusal rate. I can think of other decently paid jobs were qualifications are not required. No arguing that alot of pilots are graduates but I also know of those who are not. Self improvers, and still capable. I was previously a police office, (hence PC767), no qualifications required. I work alongside former nurses, teachers, managers and other professionally qualified people. They work as cabin crew not because they are unemployable elsewhere but by choice.
Shaka Zulu, your wife, I presume, still has a choice. My friend was a maths teacher for 8 years before she felt the need for a change. What she has lost by becoming cabin crew is social standing (if thats important to one) and the potential to graduate to higher earnings.
This debate is not about a group of workers asking for more, more more. Its about maintaining what we have, what BA contracted to pays us having passed their tough recruitment process. There are bad egg crew online, but thats the case in all jobs and professions. What is unfortunately hard is the removal of these people but laziness isn't a sackable offence. I know that because I'm part way through my second degree, this time an LLB.
To those concerned that these hours are part time, well I'm afraid they are set by European legislation and apply to all flying crew, (including those 'part time' captains on £100k - your inference not mine!). Prior to the introduction of the work time directive world wide crew averaged 1200hrs flying time, and many would be happy to see the restrictions lifted.
To those concerned about the lack of qualifications needed to apply for cabin crew, well, cannot argue with that. Major airlines including BA have a tough recruitment process and a high refusal rate. I can think of other decently paid jobs were qualifications are not required. No arguing that alot of pilots are graduates but I also know of those who are not. Self improvers, and still capable. I was previously a police office, (hence PC767), no qualifications required. I work alongside former nurses, teachers, managers and other professionally qualified people. They work as cabin crew not because they are unemployable elsewhere but by choice.
Shaka Zulu, your wife, I presume, still has a choice. My friend was a maths teacher for 8 years before she felt the need for a change. What she has lost by becoming cabin crew is social standing (if thats important to one) and the potential to graduate to higher earnings.
This debate is not about a group of workers asking for more, more more. Its about maintaining what we have, what BA contracted to pays us having passed their tough recruitment process. There are bad egg crew online, but thats the case in all jobs and professions. What is unfortunately hard is the removal of these people but laziness isn't a sackable offence. I know that because I'm part way through my second degree, this time an LLB.
Junior trash
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Ok, I don't have BA's proposals about the hourly rate and when it would apply, so I have no reason to argue with your figure, but I am aware that the maximum duty per annum is 2000hrs of which 900hrs are flight time. So working on 2000hrs that still amounts to a variable pay of £5000.
The hourly rate is from check in to check out at LHR/LGW, whether you are on duty, flying, in a bar or asleep in a hotel room.
There is a qualification requirement for a pilot. A CPL/ATPL
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Here is an intersting link with emplyee costs (inc cabin crew) for uk airlines
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...rseas_2006.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...rseas_2006.pdf
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There is a qualification requirement for a pilot. A CPL/ATPL
Other than that, I agree with the gist of your post. BASSA have whipped the crew into a frenzy before anything has even been proposed ... it is no wonder management and other BA staff look upon crew as a bunch of selfish teenagers living in a bubble.
I just feel sorry for those crew that actually have some brains and see the bigger picture ... unfortunately their voices are drowned out by BASSA and some of its membership.
I fully support the need for unions, but BASSA are an embarrassment ...
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The above link to the CAA cost table makes for interesting reading, looking at the average of a the airlines and the current economic situation it should not come as any suprise that BA want to bring their crew more in line with the industry norm.
This looks to me to be a good time for BASSA not to whip up everyone into a strike frenzee but act like grown ups and manage the situation and protect their members futures.
Any thoughts what answers BASSA will give when the question is asked why should BA maintain the current structure which is expensive to manage, over complicated and out dated in the current economic climate?.
I do hope the have good answers and not just that "we have earned it", this is not a dig at BA crew but a genuine concern for everyone !!!!!!
This looks to me to be a good time for BASSA not to whip up everyone into a strike frenzee but act like grown ups and manage the situation and protect their members futures.
Any thoughts what answers BASSA will give when the question is asked why should BA maintain the current structure which is expensive to manage, over complicated and out dated in the current economic climate?.
I do hope the have good answers and not just that "we have earned it", this is not a dig at BA crew but a genuine concern for everyone !!!!!!
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Indeed, now what did I say about benchmarking?
It's all well and good saying you have earnt it and so you have but in any business, market forces do apply.
BASSA has got a habit of going into absolute turmoil and missing the bigger picture completely. As we found out when they piggy backed on the pension agreement that the BACC sorted out for them...(don't worry, it was a smart move to do so)
Now if you can somehow prove (ai benchmarking) that the package is in agreement with industry wide averages or slightly above then I think you'll be in a far stronger position than you are now.
And I do not mean benchmarking against a company like EZY or RYR etc but to other 'legacy' carriers like KLM/Lufty/AF/IB and so on...
What strikes me as odd is that their is so much resistance against an hourly rate without knowing the full story? The pilots did switch to that rate to equal out the ridiculous situation of abusing the system. Not their fault, it was in place, I grant you that but it wasn't fair.
The same is still happening to the Cabin Crew, see my post earlier about Singapore.
The same faces are always there and the same faces are the vociferous members of BASSA.
I'm not parting blame on anyone, but a simply hissy fit is not going to sort this one out.
It's all well and good saying you have earnt it and so you have but in any business, market forces do apply.
BASSA has got a habit of going into absolute turmoil and missing the bigger picture completely. As we found out when they piggy backed on the pension agreement that the BACC sorted out for them...(don't worry, it was a smart move to do so)
Now if you can somehow prove (ai benchmarking) that the package is in agreement with industry wide averages or slightly above then I think you'll be in a far stronger position than you are now.
And I do not mean benchmarking against a company like EZY or RYR etc but to other 'legacy' carriers like KLM/Lufty/AF/IB and so on...
What strikes me as odd is that their is so much resistance against an hourly rate without knowing the full story? The pilots did switch to that rate to equal out the ridiculous situation of abusing the system. Not their fault, it was in place, I grant you that but it wasn't fair.
The same is still happening to the Cabin Crew, see my post earlier about Singapore.
The same faces are always there and the same faces are the vociferous members of BASSA.
I'm not parting blame on anyone, but a simply hissy fit is not going to sort this one out.
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It is a well known fact that BASSA uses emotive language in their communication to their members. It is also a well known fact that they only care about the LHR operation (I can give examples if needed). Also, BASSA want crew to strike at the drop of a hat (or so it seems)
I found it highly irresponsible to email/text members late on a friday night about the whole Colombus issue. I'm not saying that they should hold back information, but what happened to contact managers at the company first? Why not wait until the monday morning so crew could have had some reassurance/comments/questions answered by managers?
I think a lot of crew have gone completely over the top with this whole thing. It's not worth losing sleep over (yet) as it is just a project. How long does it normally take for BA to implement new stuff? AGES!! It took nearly 2 years from the Single fleet at LGW being announced until the first flight took off.
For us as an airline, to survive, we need to look at costs and how to reduce them. Me saying that, does not mean that we should only look at cutting crew costs. I think we could easily get rid of lots of managers for a start. There are other departments in the company who are being forced to look for other jobs within the company or leave altogether, all in the name of cost cutting, as their own department is being shut down.
Basically, to survive, we need to cut costs. It is no secret that BA has some of the highest salaries for crew (LGW exempt). I'm fully aware that majority of LHR crew are on a post 97 contract, but the vast difference between bases is unbelieveable. I'm not saying that all LHR crew should come to LGW salary level, but something more fair is reasonable as far as I'm concerned.
Also, LGW has always been a blue print of the future of BA. Did the crew at LHR really think they're untouchable? I'm not saying you don't deserve what you earn now, nor am I saying that it will bring me pleasure if your salaries get cut (far from it), but the fact that at LGW we earn a pittance compared to you guys and your response is usually "just transfer then" is annoying. Why shouldn't we all be paid the same? Why aren't LHR crew fighting for our LGW rights? (apart from sympathy).
I didn't intend this post to turn into a them-and-us post, but I do feel quite strongly about this. The amount of crew claiming they have no faith in our management and won't believe a word of what they say, may I recommend that you seek other employment. Why would you want to work for a company you despise so much?
For PC767, the hourly pay is from check-in to check-out, NOT duty or flying hours. If you go on a five day trip, you get paid for when you're not flying too. Your tax will come down, as you pay more tax with all the various allowances at LHR. The trips will be more fair, as you'll get the same whether you do a Narita or Calcutta, depending only on length of trip. Also, you'll still be paid when you have to stay on the aircraft for an hour waiting for wheelchairs or whatever. May I recommend you get all the facts about the hourly pay (not from BASSA) before you get into a spin.
Sorry about the long post, I just had to get it off my chest. It may still get edited (by me) as I think of more to say (brace brace).
I'm now putting my bullet proof vest and helmet on, waiting for incoming missiles (in the shape of words).
Gg (remaining positive and optimistic in a scary, changing world)
Ps. Please give a thought to crew from other airlines, esp. United and Qantas. They're losing jobs! At least that's not happening to us (yet)
I found it highly irresponsible to email/text members late on a friday night about the whole Colombus issue. I'm not saying that they should hold back information, but what happened to contact managers at the company first? Why not wait until the monday morning so crew could have had some reassurance/comments/questions answered by managers?
I think a lot of crew have gone completely over the top with this whole thing. It's not worth losing sleep over (yet) as it is just a project. How long does it normally take for BA to implement new stuff? AGES!! It took nearly 2 years from the Single fleet at LGW being announced until the first flight took off.
For us as an airline, to survive, we need to look at costs and how to reduce them. Me saying that, does not mean that we should only look at cutting crew costs. I think we could easily get rid of lots of managers for a start. There are other departments in the company who are being forced to look for other jobs within the company or leave altogether, all in the name of cost cutting, as their own department is being shut down.
Basically, to survive, we need to cut costs. It is no secret that BA has some of the highest salaries for crew (LGW exempt). I'm fully aware that majority of LHR crew are on a post 97 contract, but the vast difference between bases is unbelieveable. I'm not saying that all LHR crew should come to LGW salary level, but something more fair is reasonable as far as I'm concerned.
Also, LGW has always been a blue print of the future of BA. Did the crew at LHR really think they're untouchable? I'm not saying you don't deserve what you earn now, nor am I saying that it will bring me pleasure if your salaries get cut (far from it), but the fact that at LGW we earn a pittance compared to you guys and your response is usually "just transfer then" is annoying. Why shouldn't we all be paid the same? Why aren't LHR crew fighting for our LGW rights? (apart from sympathy).
I didn't intend this post to turn into a them-and-us post, but I do feel quite strongly about this. The amount of crew claiming they have no faith in our management and won't believe a word of what they say, may I recommend that you seek other employment. Why would you want to work for a company you despise so much?
For PC767, the hourly pay is from check-in to check-out, NOT duty or flying hours. If you go on a five day trip, you get paid for when you're not flying too. Your tax will come down, as you pay more tax with all the various allowances at LHR. The trips will be more fair, as you'll get the same whether you do a Narita or Calcutta, depending only on length of trip. Also, you'll still be paid when you have to stay on the aircraft for an hour waiting for wheelchairs or whatever. May I recommend you get all the facts about the hourly pay (not from BASSA) before you get into a spin.
Sorry about the long post, I just had to get it off my chest. It may still get edited (by me) as I think of more to say (brace brace).
I'm now putting my bullet proof vest and helmet on, waiting for incoming missiles (in the shape of words).
Gg (remaining positive and optimistic in a scary, changing world)
Ps. Please give a thought to crew from other airlines, esp. United and Qantas. They're losing jobs! At least that's not happening to us (yet)
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Originally Posted by TheKabaka
Here is an intersting link with emplyee costs (inc cabin crew) for uk airlines
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...rseas_2006.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...rseas_2006.pdf
I wish I could find again the statistic which compared managers per airframe of several different airlines.
Instructive.
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So many of you have so much to say and you have no idea what Columbus entails.
BASSA informed us as soon as they had the information. I for one would rather know whether it be a monday or a friday. I had a conversation with LM and it is frightening how far along this project is.
Sticking ones head in the sand is not going to change anything.
Glamgirl you make valid points but perhaps if BA made sensible advances then we would not be where we are now. I must disagree with your sentiment on as you put it "us and them" I'm not going to go in to the history of LGW but the blame lies firmly at the feet of the crew who voted for various changes. LGW had an oppurtunity in 1992 but that is another discussion.
I agree that changes need to be made but sensible communication and transparency would go a long long way. Alas I do not think that WW or STS will ever gain the trust of any member of IFS ever again.
As for all the BA bashers have fun.
BASSA informed us as soon as they had the information. I for one would rather know whether it be a monday or a friday. I had a conversation with LM and it is frightening how far along this project is.
Sticking ones head in the sand is not going to change anything.
Glamgirl you make valid points but perhaps if BA made sensible advances then we would not be where we are now. I must disagree with your sentiment on as you put it "us and them" I'm not going to go in to the history of LGW but the blame lies firmly at the feet of the crew who voted for various changes. LGW had an oppurtunity in 1992 but that is another discussion.
I agree that changes need to be made but sensible communication and transparency would go a long long way. Alas I do not think that WW or STS will ever gain the trust of any member of IFS ever again.
As for all the BA bashers have fun.
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Superboy,
So we at LGW should be punished for something that could have happened in 1992? That's 16 years ago for crying out loud! If the voting you're referring to is about the Single Fleet, you may want to know that most of the people who was eligible to vote were WW crew (LGW based) who knew their options before the vote. They knew they weren't going to stay, and therefore couldn't care less what happened to us.
Bassa has a long and painful history of putting our t&c's at LGW down. Who offered the company 9p and hour instead of our breakfast allowance? Who made sure we can have a max rostered duty day of 12.5 hrs to protect the WW operation at LHR? Who didn't want us in NSP? And when that got decided, everyone at LGW at the time ended up with seniority date of Oct 06, even the ones who've been with the company over 30 years. Who's walked out of countless meetings or not bothered to turn up at all? Yep, it's your beloved Bassa.
I don't want this to sound like Bassa bashing, I'm just stating facts. I've been so disappointed with Bassa that I can't explain it. The open communication needs to come from both sides. I'm not saying that I agree with Colombus, far from it, I think it sounds scary too, but I do think something will happen, although not as bad as some people think it will be.
Gg
So we at LGW should be punished for something that could have happened in 1992? That's 16 years ago for crying out loud! If the voting you're referring to is about the Single Fleet, you may want to know that most of the people who was eligible to vote were WW crew (LGW based) who knew their options before the vote. They knew they weren't going to stay, and therefore couldn't care less what happened to us.
Bassa has a long and painful history of putting our t&c's at LGW down. Who offered the company 9p and hour instead of our breakfast allowance? Who made sure we can have a max rostered duty day of 12.5 hrs to protect the WW operation at LHR? Who didn't want us in NSP? And when that got decided, everyone at LGW at the time ended up with seniority date of Oct 06, even the ones who've been with the company over 30 years. Who's walked out of countless meetings or not bothered to turn up at all? Yep, it's your beloved Bassa.
I don't want this to sound like Bassa bashing, I'm just stating facts. I've been so disappointed with Bassa that I can't explain it. The open communication needs to come from both sides. I'm not saying that I agree with Colombus, far from it, I think it sounds scary too, but I do think something will happen, although not as bad as some people think it will be.
Gg
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The whole thing smells a bit fishy.
Let me offer a possible theory:
The company (BA) is following a practice used by politicians over the last few years. By 'leaking' information that offers a worst case scenario that frightens the b'jesus out of everyone and gets them thinking the worst, then offer a 'compromise'; which was exactly what the company wanted in the first place.
Fear is a wonderful tactic to get what you want.
6
Let me offer a possible theory:
The company (BA) is following a practice used by politicians over the last few years. By 'leaking' information that offers a worst case scenario that frightens the b'jesus out of everyone and gets them thinking the worst, then offer a 'compromise'; which was exactly what the company wanted in the first place.
Fear is a wonderful tactic to get what you want.
6
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Glamgirl,
You clearly have an axe to grind. I understand the emotions at LGW as I am LGW based, for another week atleast.
I only mentioned that there were choices as there were but for many reasons people chose different options that were available to them.
As for LGW WW voting for SFG I think you should check your facts as that is not correct.
As for "my beloved BASSA", I am not in BASSA, I try and be subjective and I base my theories on facts.
You clearly have an axe to grind. I understand the emotions at LGW as I am LGW based, for another week atleast.
I only mentioned that there were choices as there were but for many reasons people chose different options that were available to them.
As for LGW WW voting for SFG I think you should check your facts as that is not correct.
As for "my beloved BASSA", I am not in BASSA, I try and be subjective and I base my theories on facts.
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SB
Objective?
I do not work for BA, I left almost 10 years ago. I was not crew. I have negotiated pay to a lesser extent when at BA for my department and now directly with my current employer.
Both staff and management go out to industry to benchmark salaries when negotiating pay. You use words like quartile, mean, median, average, local and whatever the latest term is. Staff side pitch high and the suits pitch in the gutter.
Look at Virgin. SRB puts a heavy weight to the benefits VS offer the crew against offering a high basic wage. They still recruit and do have very loyal staff, well the ones that I know.
BA, if you believe the comments on here have a great wage (LHR and/or pre 97) and a good benefits package.
Are the crew any better than any other crew member working in the industry in the UK? In my experience of flying as a passenger, no.
Now recruitment of BA crew is subjective. What is it based on? Only the recruiters will know. The days of recruiting for just looks have gone. Is it the Rhodean accent and knowing the front end of a horse from the back still relevant? Who knows. Is there positive discrimination and if so what for?
Will business travelers stop flying the worlds favorite if every crew member now flying for a charter airline in the UK redeploys to BA. I doubt it.
I would imagine a 10 year crew member at a charter airline has had to deal with more situations that that of an equally time served BA employee, just because most of them have flown to maximum hours governed by the CAA and not a scheduling agreement. At the big charters, this is the time it takes to make a lead role in the cabin. OK, 10 years to a LHR based crew member is not that much time, but any career orientated person outside the industry would expect a senior role in that time scale. They have also had to deal with flying 350 plus pax with 9 crew and no crew rest.
Would I cut your wages and benefits? Of course I would not, and I fully understand a lot of people are making money out of you, the customer facing employees. However, if you look at the figures and your management bonus depends on it, you are a very tempting target as you are sitting in a very conspicuous position above the MARKET RATE.
Objective?
I do not work for BA, I left almost 10 years ago. I was not crew. I have negotiated pay to a lesser extent when at BA for my department and now directly with my current employer.
Both staff and management go out to industry to benchmark salaries when negotiating pay. You use words like quartile, mean, median, average, local and whatever the latest term is. Staff side pitch high and the suits pitch in the gutter.
Look at Virgin. SRB puts a heavy weight to the benefits VS offer the crew against offering a high basic wage. They still recruit and do have very loyal staff, well the ones that I know.
BA, if you believe the comments on here have a great wage (LHR and/or pre 97) and a good benefits package.
Are the crew any better than any other crew member working in the industry in the UK? In my experience of flying as a passenger, no.
Now recruitment of BA crew is subjective. What is it based on? Only the recruiters will know. The days of recruiting for just looks have gone. Is it the Rhodean accent and knowing the front end of a horse from the back still relevant? Who knows. Is there positive discrimination and if so what for?
Will business travelers stop flying the worlds favorite if every crew member now flying for a charter airline in the UK redeploys to BA. I doubt it.
I would imagine a 10 year crew member at a charter airline has had to deal with more situations that that of an equally time served BA employee, just because most of them have flown to maximum hours governed by the CAA and not a scheduling agreement. At the big charters, this is the time it takes to make a lead role in the cabin. OK, 10 years to a LHR based crew member is not that much time, but any career orientated person outside the industry would expect a senior role in that time scale. They have also had to deal with flying 350 plus pax with 9 crew and no crew rest.
Would I cut your wages and benefits? Of course I would not, and I fully understand a lot of people are making money out of you, the customer facing employees. However, if you look at the figures and your management bonus depends on it, you are a very tempting target as you are sitting in a very conspicuous position above the MARKET RATE.
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I thought that if you were using emotions, feelings and opinions, then you would be being subjective but if you were making statements of fact, it would be objective. Always works hard is subjective but never late or sick is objective. Looks good in their uniform, subjective or adheres to the company uniform standard, objective. I may be missing the point and I only got a C at O level, so I could be in the wrong here. If I am, please accept my appoligies.
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Guys, I'm really sorry but it looks like things are about to get a lot worse:
Recruitment freeze
Cuts in allowences
Reduction of hotel standards
Grounded flights-less people can afford to fly when they can barely pay their fuel bills
Suspension/cancellation of all training courses
No more trips and nightstops on EF. Shorter trips on WW
Rumours in the Times of a buy on board service
Expect a summer of discontent. For us all. Lots of people in all sectors are about to face sweeping redundancies, not just BA, not just aviation.
I am really upset about collective job losses.
Not just me but ALL of us.
Lets face it, the economy is dire.
Recruitment freeze
Cuts in allowences
Reduction of hotel standards
Grounded flights-less people can afford to fly when they can barely pay their fuel bills
Suspension/cancellation of all training courses
No more trips and nightstops on EF. Shorter trips on WW
Rumours in the Times of a buy on board service
Expect a summer of discontent. For us all. Lots of people in all sectors are about to face sweeping redundancies, not just BA, not just aviation.
I am really upset about collective job losses.
Not just me but ALL of us.
Lets face it, the economy is dire.
I'm sorry Virginia but excuse me for butting in as "Flight Deck". I've spent the last week working with colleagues who frankly have no idea what the Company are proposing - if anything, but BASSA have whipped them into a frenzy with one text message and an e-mail. Now you come out with what looks like another management wish list - where on Earth did your list come from - or are you just trying to increase the angst amongst BA Cabin Crew?