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The Virgin Strike Thread II

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The Virgin Strike Thread II

Old 22nd Dec 2007, 09:34
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The Virgin Strike Thread II

The previous thread was beginning to get poisonous, so let's start again.

Please remember - Making a personal attack on another user doesn't make your point any more valid, or likely to bee believed: However it does increase your own chances of being banned or deleted.

Finally, whenever possible, post facts, preferably with a link to evidence supporting your position. Galley FM is unreliable at the best of times, and turning PPRuNe into a mouthpiece for it doesn't help anybody.

This is now a 'Hot' thread and is being watched carefully for transgressions - think before you post.
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 10:29
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The main problem seems to be that no one understands the true value of the deal. A pilot friend of mine provided me with the numbers so here they are;


Current Year 1 Year 2 Yr 1 Rise Yr 2 Rise Total
FSM 25222 26575 27918 5.36% 5.05% 10.69%
CSS 20259 21385 22305 5.56% 4.30% 10.10%
SCC 15548 16310 16887 4.90% 3.54% 8.61%
CC 13350 14008 14506 4.93% 3.56% 8.66%
IFBTS 16277 17074 17677 4.90% 3.53% 8.60%
IFBT 16227 17024 17627 4.91% 3.54% 8.63%



So that includes the 4.8% plus the increase in sector pay but excludes allowances which are what about 5.5k a year.

Secondly I'd be happy to cut crew in exchange for more money. How many crew do BA carry on their Jumbos we have 17 in the new config?
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 12:09
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At BA we used to have 16 crew on our Jumbo services. After 9/11 the company asked to remove a crew member as a temporary cost saving measure. So here we are over 6 years later, still with 15 crew on our 747s!! We did manage to negotiate the 16th crew member back on some routes, but only a handful, so mostly we fly with 15 on the Jumbo.
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 12:11
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PS. There is a huge wave of support for you guys at BA. We wish you the best in your endeavours/industrial action. I hope you achieve more than we did in Jan of this year. Stay strong and all the best.
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 12:48
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And don't forget those allowances are tax free!!!

Last edited by magicE; 22nd Dec 2007 at 13:02.
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 13:41
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From cabincrew.com, BRILLIANT! sums it up perfectly i feel

As an old timer FSM, i've read all of the comments posted on here and there are some really valued points and obviously very strong opinion which shows the loyalty that most of you (us) show to Virgin. I must say that what LM, Steve R and that new plonker who has only been in the company 5 minutes from Britannia, (latest post on ifly, I can't remember his name for the moment) seems to be all about looking after our customers from now, basically stuff the crew, they've made their decision and now we have no further interest in them at all!! How about expressing their sadness that over 70% of voting members are so unhappy with their pay and conditions that they have decided to take this action and maybe trying to get back round the negotiating table to try to clinch a new deal?

Those of us who have been here over 20 years and have stuck by the airline through 2 gulf wars, 9/11, 7/7 and plenty of other situations that have caused major problems for the airline, sureley deserve more than just being told that the airlines major concern is now the customers and basically the crew who want to strike can get on with whilst Virgin runs an almost full schedule regardless!!

And what's all this about thanking everyone who has volunteered to help out??? How about when we go 3 and 4 crew down and work into discretion to 'help out'??? Overtime at 5 per hour, for goodness sake, it doesn't even buy a cup of coffee and a cake in London! Let's see how many flights have to go crew down over the xmas and new year periods, how many of us will have to work with minimum crew and still offer a fantastic service onboard and still be assessed by FSM's/CSS's to ensure the standard of your work is nothing less than exemplary!!

And of course don't forget, that when we take leave, we only get 2 (if we're lucky) buffer days to add on, where as office staff get two week-end's on either side of their leave plus all bank holidays where applicable!

And by the way, SEP instructors are on 28500 pa, even those who have only been in the company a few years. That's more than FSM's would get if the new pay deal had come into effect. And they are not actually management, they are trainers, FSM's CSS's are supposed to be managers and they earn less than the trainers, how can that be justified?

And all the benefits that have been taken away from the crew? Only one car park pass for newer crew, one request per month that is really hard to actually get for most of us, we could work both Xmas and New Year for two or three years consequentively, crew rest taken off the A340 for quite a long time so flights to DEL/BOM, sometimes nearly 10 hours without a single break, the list goes on and on. And then the company say we're being unfair by asking for a salary equal to other airlines?

All the benefits that we once had in this company when it was smaller, have now gone, most of us have a story to tell of something that is quite outragious and it has gone on for long enough and many of us who have been in the company for a long time are now just fed up of things being taken away and getting so little in return. No payment for 4 days SEP training in the office and not even a day off afterwards, many of us have to fly the very next day. SEP has become a total nightmare for most people and yet if we don't pass, we lose our jobs it's as simple as that! We have to be Dr's/nurses, Police, Firefighters, waiting staff, safety officers, security 'bods', sales people (DF) as well of course as being perfect ambassadors for the company and offering a world class service that rivals some of the best companies in the world! For goodness sake, do we really not deserve to earn a salary that is rewarding!!

We all work bloomin' hard and the vast majority of crew really do give 100% and are so loyal to the company and we really can't do more than we already do!! The company need to start recognising the crew that give so much to the company, remember the restraints that so many of us have dealt with, the medical emergencies, the sep related incidents onboard, the long horrendous delays etc etc etc

Are we really asking for so much? If the company manage to operate a near perfect schedule over the strikes, then things will only get worse in the future, disciplinaries will become more frequent, more benefits will be taken away as cost cutting measures and foget any chance of renegotiating a salary review in the next 4 to 5 years as the company will say they cannot afford it as a result of the strikes we instigated!
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 14:04
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Ah, I found the old thread, here is the link http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=300751&page=1

There is lots of information in it for reference, so that we don't reinvent the wheel.

for example in respone to Oxymoron666's posts about percentages and how much the deal was worth to crew rather than retype I refer back to this post from the old thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...&postcount=211 which detailed how much extra per month a crew member could of had extra in in the hand. A lot easier to get an understanding of the deal in terms of in the hand.

Regardless, the deal is gone now, time to move on.
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 16:15
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Dear vs.lhr
You seem to doubt the figures I posted about just how underpaid VS cabin crew are, relative to other airlines.
You asked for the link to the CAA page that I quote . It is :-
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...rseas_2006.pdf

It makes interesting reading when you see that all the charter/low cost airlines can pay their cabin crew on average at least 2,000 per annum more, yet VS who sell seats LHR-JFK-LHR for up to 2,950 pounds are unable to.

Regards.
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 18:53
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Firstly, good that a new thread has started. The old one WAS getting nasty.

Secondly, I am SHOCKED at those numbers posted early in the thread. I had no idea your current package was that bad!!!

Suddenly the inconvenience I may endure in January is put in perspective.....
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 20:30
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vs lhr
My point in the last thread about those Unite members who choose not to strike and non members is this -

If you are not prepared to back industrial action due to a dispute over pay and do not think for what ever reason, that being a member of Unite is a good thing, then why should you benefit in any way, if the action carried out by Unite gains an increase from the initial offer of 2%?

I am not saying that you are happy with 2%, but you are not that unhappy to back industrial action.

You would be seen in a very kind light by your bosses if you refused anything above 2% because of the opinions you have already aired on these threads.
To me, this is a question of conscience.

I am sure you would be respected from both sides in this dispute if you stuck with 2%.
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 20:42
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I know I am repeating my point from the previous thread, but I do think it is a valid one. Can someone please tell me EXACTLY what we're striking for? It's all good and well saying pay and conditions, but I need to know WHAT percentage and WHICH conditions? Without this in place, how can anyone strike? It would be indefinite and divided. The union recommends an offer, the membership rejects it, the union recommends a strike. This does not represent a united front. Every person I speak to has varied ideas of an ideal outcome/aim and the union are certainly not leading the way in this.

Before I can make an informed and adult decision regarding my position during this strike, I need these questions answered. I voted no to striking for precisely this reason.

Again, sorry to re-iterate but I didn't receive any answers.
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 20:59
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If you are not prepared to back industrial action due to a dispute over pay and do not think for what ever reason, that being a member of Unite is a good thing, then why should you benefit in any way, if the action carried out by Unite gains an increase from the initial offer of 2%?
It's nothing to do with whether you took part in action or not. It's simply the company cannot discriminate between union and non-union members. In the same way they can't offer a better deal to non-union members as a reward for not taking part in the strike (well, actually, they can offer bonuses for working on strike days, but they can't offer a better ongoing package just because someone is not in the union).
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 21:08
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If you are not prepared to back industrial action due to a dispute over pay and do not think for what ever reason, that being a member of Unite is a good thing, then why should you benefit in any way, if the action carried out by Unite gains an increase from the initial offer of 2%?
Litebulbs - I'm sorry I have to reply to this. Some who may not back industrial action may have in fact voted for the offer on the table at the time. Using your argument, and putting it another way does this mean if the vote had NOT been for strike action then those who voted for it should not recieve the enhanced pay offer?... No I think not.

I'm only a humble pax, and I support the CC in their campaign for a better offer...but comments like this will not aid your cause.
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 21:30
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vs lhr

The company have already discriminated between members and non members. Crew were offered more than ground based staff.

When you enter into a collective agreement, you should not do it lightly. The majority of Unite members who voted, voted to strike. The whole point about the union movement is that you are a collective. You have collective strength and you will not always see the result go your way. However, you should stand by that result.

Unite has called upon all of its 3000+ members to support action.
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 23:07
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Litebulbs,

I'm not getting into an argument about whether the company has discriminated or not. The point is they are simply not allowed to discriminate based on union membership. End of.
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 23:21
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If they are not allowed then why did they?
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 23:57
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Just a note to say goodluck with your course of action. I work for bmi and the majority of us support you guys I cant understand why you haven't proposed striking before. A few friends of mine went over to you guys and then came back due to not being able to survive. Your no 1's seemed to be getting a basic wage amounting to the same as I got whilst training.

No wonder Mr Branson is a millionaire. I cant believe they bus you over from Gatwick probably to avoid London Weighting allowance even though the majority of ur flights are at Lhr.

You guys have had it bad for too long I cant believe there are Vs Crew not supporting this action.

Good luck guys give em hell.
 
Old 23rd Dec 2007, 03:04
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MakingaSplash has hit the nail on the head. Whilst nobody clearly spells out what exactly they are fighting for then the dispute will trundle along at a snails pace with no hope of a resolution In this situation the company most definitely have the upper hand, which is why they are confident they can run a comprehensive schedule with the cancellation of only 3/4 flights.

The union, who strongly endorsed the last two offers, have now performed a complete u-turn and are calling for an all out strike which damages their already limited credibility.

The union reps have not received clear guidance from the members which has resulted in lenghty negotiations without a successful outcome.

As long as the workforce continue to go off in several different directions, the less likely it becomes that a remedy for this complete and utter mess will be found.
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Old 23rd Dec 2007, 04:42
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Justanotherpax,

Thanks for your support, much appreciated. Likewise those that voted no and appreciate that the only way forward is as a united front I thank you for the private and public messages. Together as a collective unit we shall make a difference. A time of change is upon us - one of which other departments and management will not like and will (as Ifly demonstrates) try to paint us in a poor light, incidentally I personally feel it shows desperation in the extreme i.e. they know we know we have the upper hand.

Those asking what we are seeking see the union for details, many have been passing on their concerns and minimums they would accept, the company know what it is already but has been trying to pull a fast one targeting specific ranks and groups as they did at the last negotiations with promises of back pay in Christmas bonuses etc, this time however it has not worked. Makingasplash, there are pages and pages as to what we are striking for with tens to hundreds of areas of concern, may I suggest you take the time (and it would take some time) to read them all, rather than crew rewriting their issues, since the talks began the same things have been typed over and over and over again.

The ball is firmly in the companies court, they can avert customer disruption by returning to the negotiation table and offering a realistic offer which does not involve crew sacrifice.
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Old 23rd Dec 2007, 09:26
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Scoobydoo, you are absolutely right, one could fill a book with everything that was written about the subject in the previous thread. However, one person is saying 10%, another is saying the percentage is fine but the trip pay needs to double. Will there ever be a clear manifesto, a united one, which says, ok company, we want X, Y and Z and without this we will keep striking. Trust me, I have read all the pages.
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