vs_lhr

Interesting how different people can read a different spin on a story. The feel I got from the BBC story (and bearing in mind they're not offering a cabin crew 'voice', so it's more sided on Virgin's position) is that the crew are making unrealistic demands on the company. Rejecting a 4.8% deal that was worth 8.3%; Virgin won't be meeting "dangerous" pay demands; "A Virgin Atlantic spokesperson said that since the letter was sent, a number of union members had contacted management, offering to cross the picket line and work on the strike days." - this reads more in VS's favour than crew's to me. (I do note that the story appears to have had a minor update since it was first published)

It looks like the story (which I still believe originated from Scooby's post) has already had the hand of the Virgin PR empire on it. And this will just be the tip of the iceberg.

greigok

So who has seen Ifly and the incentives that VS are offering. My guess most will forget striking and go to work as it's money whats important to most of the crew here.

With regards to earlier comments regarding Crew Down and being the highest on record over xmas...well if people want to party do it downroute and do not call in sick. Crew Down has alot to do with people faking sickness and then your asking for crew down payments.

I do agree you need more money and i know you do a really hard job..people do not undestand how hard you work on a lagos or a full las vegas. But i do think what was offered was the best you were going to get. Dis-regard crew down as that's an issue where crew need to call in sick when they actually are.

I have friends that work for BA...and they operate there long hail flights with less crew than you guys and this is standard. Now there flights are alot busier and they do not get crew down payments. Also stop comparing the wages to other airlines...VS is the only airline that just does long haul. All the other airlines cater for long and short combined.

Again i know how hard you guys work and im looking to get a mortgage with my other half who works for Virgin and his pay will not be a problem. I live in the south east where the property is more expensive aswell.

Good luck guys with whatver you decide to do and keep up all the hard work and much respect to you for all the hard busy flights that i know you work.

vs_lhr

I don't think you did it deliberately; but the only 'quote' the BBC has from Branson is the line you put online here, and the other details in their story could have been written up just by reading PPRuNe. You're our very own Deep Throat! Take it as a compliment

Hand Solo

???? BA operate a long haul 747 with 15 crew but they have 4 supervisory grades on board and a maximum of 337 passengers, which is a lot less than passengers than a Virgin 747 I'm told. They also will work down, but only one down and they get a minimum payment of about £170 for their troubles!

trollytom

I am new to PPRuNe today and have been crew at VS for almost 4yrs
I am all for people having their own opinion however think that the insulting comments from some people who are more than likely just here to wind others up and would urge others to ignore their juvenile playground style comments.
We work bl**dy hard in the job that we do - its not often mentally hard but can be physically demanding - long days minimal rest time differences grumpy rude sometimes violent passengers crew down and many many other factors however Yes we choose to do the job many people I work with have degrees are very highly educated and choose the job because it is the lifestlye they wish to adopt. Again Yes we all knew the starting salary when we joined and I am not comparing us to BA or anyone else but the pay we earn for the job we do is NOT acceptable and if going on strike helps demonstrate this then so be it. It need not have got to this stage had virgin played fair and offered realistic offer initially then we would not be faced with this predicament now. I am not an outspoken individual who does not understsand the serious of the situation we are currently in however i am one who stands up for my rights and VS have got it SO So wrong they need to start respecting us for the work that we do. We are no longer the family sized airline that started out 23 yrs ago we have grown and therefore they need to adapt and recognise the work that we do.
A value of my previous company - look after your staff and they will look after your customers is perhaps something Virgin should adopt - The letter I received from RB this morning saying we need to focus on customers now is not the right angle. You look after us £ T & C and we will look after the punters therefore generating revenue and profit for you its a simple formula but get it right and you would not be in this mess.

I only hope that those who voted Yes to Strike and have been rostered flights on the Striking dates will be prepared to show their faces and stand up for what they believe in.

Why should FSM,s be on lower pay than SEP instructors or other managers on the ground.? When that flight takes off they are (after flight deck ) they are soley responsible for the welfare of all on board and yes most flights will probably pass without incidence howeven when things go wrong - a heart attack - a pregnant passenger goes in to labour a fire disruptive passenger Whatever they and the crew on board are the ones who have to deal with it and the skills which we are required to use are of such a level that requires more monies. This is just talking about fsm - i am cabin crew and why should i not be able to go and get a mortgage We all deserve better money for the work that we do.

The people who are saying we are silly to strike are fools they will accept a payrise when one is offered I hope that they are thanking us then ! Dont say I cant afford to strike ! Hold out and show the bosses at VAA we have been treated poorly for too long and we now are prepared to voice our opinions.
Id love to write more hope ive not taken over I gotta go out for NYE lunch now so Happy New Year all and hope to write soon

greigok

I take it you fly for BA. I definately know the gatwick fleet that do longhaul do not get crew down payment at all!!! With regards to LHR my friend has never received that payment on a 747 and also operate with more passengers than 337 im afraid.

kwachon

Now I know why I left England during the eighties, maybe the influx of foreign workers will be rubbing their hands with glee.

I for one will continue my sojourn in the middle east and return to my home in the USA where this kind of debacle is an everyday event. You get used to it and leave, find a new employer and get happy again.

All part of aviation in this dog eat dog world right now and I am a pilot!.

016FSM

BA have a very small number of first class passengers, 10 or 12 I believe, a fair size business cabin and small economy cabin. Until recently, Virgin has had 40 Upper class pax, between 30 and 40 premium depending on the aircraft, and anywhere from 375 to 400 in economy depending on the aircraft. Virgin's upper class cabin now holds 50 passengers and the premium around the same I believe. Economy has been reduced to around 300. Remember that our upper service rivals other airline's first class service, so it's not over in 5 minutes, it has to be delivered with all the trimmings!

The crew working positions are very very different to those at BA and BA do not do the number of services that Virgin have to do. Even with 17 crew, Virgin crew are pushed to the limits and some pax still complain that our service is too slow and we obviously don't have enough crew!! I have dealth with those kind of complaints on numerous ocassions!

BA crew openly tell their customers not to use their call bells unless they REALLY have to, Virgin pax use them continuously and the crew have to answer each one every time it goes off and wouldn't dare tell someone not to use it, unlike BA!!

scoobydooo

trollytom do you mean "NOT show their faces" to work

trollytom

Oops - sorry scooby i mean Show their faces at the picket line or whereever else we gather to demonstrate our beliefs!!

greigok

I take it you fly wiith BA alot...then to witness what you have just said. As i have already said in a previous post i know you work very hard and im not saying you do not deserve more money. Im saying cc need to stop comparing themselves to other airlines when VS is the only one that just does Long Haul.

With reagrds to pay i feel that the FSM and CSS position is well underapaid and i know how hard you work and the responsibility you carry. My partner is a css and i hear and have seen how hard he works. You do deeserve a pay rise and perhaps questions need to be asked about the fsm and css pay being dealt with seperatley. If this was done then im sure you guys would not be striking now.

With regards to the CC i think 4.8 is an acceptable pay offer with RPI cuurently at 3.3 looking at being by 4.4 by April 08...that makes it a good offer, with the new talks starting again in April.

Again I know how hard you work and you do work bloody hard!

do-not-disturb

I have read all the threads on this topic and would like to share my views with you, rightly or wrongly.

Firstly, I am VS cabin crew (JNR) and have been for a few years.

Secondly, I am not in the Union, for precisely this reason, when they need to earn their pennies and their back is against the wall, they let their members down, which will be evident later during industrial action.

I would emplore every single cabin crew member who voted yes to industrial action to seriously think about what they are doing for the future of their company and the security of their jobs.

I left a better paid job to come to virgin, and I joined knowing full well that the salary wasn’t great, but that was the choice I made, and adjusted my means to get by.

We all want more money, every single one of us, Human nature unfortunately dictates that these days, but please be realistic in what you are demanding. I listen to crew who voted for action and in asking them why, I get very different reasons. The majority I have spoken to actually say “because we have had enough of being treated like Sh*t” or similar, that “we want to be recognised and rewarded for what we do”. A lot of people say its because they want more money, but it hasn’t been the majority voice, so I’m left very confused as to what the strike action will be for.

Lets go waaayyy back to the start of the pay negotiations. Any pay increase (which can also be called “cost of living rise”) should be based on cost of living (inflation) and any changes to the role in question, ie, new/more work, increase or new skills used or reward for any training or specialist new to that role. In the last twelve months there have been no changes to the role of cabin crew in any rank, therefore the pay increase, it is fair to say therefore, can only be based on inflation. We actually work less as well, thanks to the 900hr rule.

Inflation at the time I believe was 3.9%, so , and this is where the whole thing starts…. The offer of a 2% pay increase by the Director of Cabin Services was a complete insult and a clear statement that she and her management team held little or no regard or respect for the community for which she is accountable, and it has been this initial insult which is the backbone of the industrial action.

Strip everything else away and what you have is an offer of basic increase of 4.8%, no strings, which is above inflation, higher than any other uk airline, so how can that not be deemed reasonable and fair???

So if industrial action is to have better terms and conditions and to feel more valued for the job we do, then PLEASE DO NOT STRIKE. Accept the 4.8% and use your union further to put pressure on the company to ‘shake the management tree’ as there is a vote of no confidence in the management team, where implied trust and confidence has broken down.

If you want more money, PLEASE DO NOT STRIKE. This is what has been offered, so accept it and use it as foundations for future pay negotiations as the crew community will certainly be a body that will be listened to carefully in the future.

Many comparisons are made between BA, pilots, ground staff, sep trainers. Forget this. BA is a different kettle of fish. Always will be. If you want to come up to the same level as BA, then use your union to negotiate higher rates of overtime pay, day off payments, trip allowance, crew down payments, incentives on high sickness routes. This is where BA earn their money, due to what they have got their union to negotiate for them, separate to basic pay increase. Pilots have a much stronger union and have differing terms and conditions which are contractual. There is a worldwide shortage of pilots, which is why terms and conditions are more favourable. Even at the low salary offered, there is no end of applications for cabin crew, and this has to be realised and accepted.

As I go into the new year, it is with sadness and fear, as I am unsure what the future holds for me, as do those that will strike.

I can’t help thinking that where we are divided at the moment, some of those who strike and some of us that don’t will be joined together at a later date either at interviews at other airlines, or signing on the dole, due to the damage this will cause. One step at a time guys. They know they’ve ballsed up. Give them a chance to make it right. It won’t be over night and it won’t be all at once. I write this with the upmost respect for all the views printed on previous threads. Best regards

scoobydooo

Typo ? RPI for November was published at 4.3.

vs_lhr

TrollyTom, welcome to the party, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to pick you up on a few points as some of the ground has been covered before.

After making a statement like that, it's best not to follow it with opinions which are likely to wind others up. A robust debate necessitates strong opinions from both sides, and if you can't take it, don't dish it.


If you joined 4 years ago, and were happy to accept the salary then, I am confused why you would want any more than inflationary increases from that point four years ago? I know this is a controversial point, but whilst I can understand the motives of really long-term crew for whom their pay hasn't tracked inflation over many years, for relative newbies to the airline, I struggle to understand why you're so militant when you walked into the job fully aware of the deal. Trying to bring the company down because you decide after a few years that the management simply have to improve your pay way beyond inflation isn't playing fair.

Poppycock. Virgin not only believed they had reached agreement with the union, they also went beyond the union demands in the last offer. This is mostly the union's faulty for not understanding the expectations of its own membership. Some of the blame must also go to the person behind WDMM, who stirred up crew opinion behind the scenes based on false logic, woolly facts and a complete misunderstanding of the financial operation. WDMM undermined any good intentions of both the union and management.

Don't you think it's rather strange then, with your business acumen, that you are only cabin crew and Richard Branson is the chairman of about 300+ successful businesses? There are far too many people who claim to have the magic solution to running the business, but very little of it is based on practical experience.

>sigh<

Simple economics. More people want the FSM job (because they get to fly) than the SEP instructors job. I dare say you can also get paid more wiping old people's bottoms in a care home, but it's not a particularly attractive job, and there's not often a queue around the job centre for those. I know this doesn't sound particularly fair, but that's the cold reality of business. Pay as little as you can get away with; and as long as there's a high number of job applicants, you can get away with remarkably little.

The job is what it is, and has the salary attached. No one has the right to receive any more than the minimum wage for the job they do - anything more is just the market forces at work to attract the right number of qualified people to the positions available. Hey, I want a new car, but the reality of the situation is my old one will have to make do until it falls apart; and then, much as always, I'll buy another second hand one. I don't blame Virgin for that.

I shall be spending NYE indoors - as usual - because price gouging on this one night of the year puts public enjoyment of the event beyond the price I'm willing to pay. Hope you all have a Happy New Year.

greigok

So scooby what % are you actually looking for?

scoobydooo

My gripes and wish list is buried somewhere deep in the last thread and the one before that, offer inflation without strings and redirect remaining funds into trip pay to make trip pay more (thus making it expensive to not be at work, targets sickness).

Move forward to next talks addressing.....

Bring onbaord managerial role pay in line with other airlines
Sensible Working up Payments
Sensible Crew down payments (to encourage correct manning levels)
Introduction of length of service increments (reward loyalty)
Overhaul of the allowance scheme (flat rate hourly or similar to reduce )amount of people trying to swap off and on to low/high paid trips) another reason for sickness

That would be a starting list, all massive projects but gains in there for both the company and employee.

Just a small list then but this time round, 1 year deal RPI no strings and sensible trip pay, the rest to be discussed moving forward with a lot more crew involvement.

greigok

Scooby i do agree that that length of service increments is needed for all tiers of the crew. You get this in most work places and this would be a good step in the right direction.

Although you have made good points you need find out what everybody else wants ...as it seems everyone wants different things.

You have made some good points so have you voiced this to the union...i fell though after the incentives that VS are now offering on ifly this will all fall flat and second strike in January will ot go ahead.

Leaving everybody with a ? over how much they will receive.

scoobydooo

Yes I sent my thought to BB and Dk a long time ago. Not seen the incentives yet as cant seem to login to secure pages at the mo, what they offering about £200 a flight at a guess in the hand ?

greigok

One off £150 disruption payment per trip, guaranteed to be a minimum of £100 after tax
Guaranteed minimum 4 crew down payment £160 e.g. even if you are only 1 crew member down you will receive £160 (if 5 crew down, a payment of £250 will apply)
Trip pay and allowances will be paid as normal
Help with hotel accommodation and travel if required before trip

If you go on strike your roster will be wiped and they will fit you in where they can...so i guess that will be febuary.

Im guessing most crew will see this and forget striking!

scoobydooo

So, £150 to operate a flight and £160 in crew down payment guaranteed, total £310, less tax & NI (30%) circa £217. So perhaps if you do 2 of these then its £434 extra for going to work on the 2 blocks of strike days. That's good money, ah but if I average it over 12 months it's £36.17 per month, now what was the last pay deal worth to me , oh yes I remember assuming 5 trips a month a junior stood to take home an extra £39.61 per month. http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3616165&postcount=211 so still actually by going into work on the strike days people will be worse of in one year than if I they accepted the last offer.


That's just over 1 year. Lets look at over the next 5 years any bargaining power the union has/had would be gone in effect we would probably be setting ourselves up for the union disintegration.... maybe that is why the company likes this, they might see this as a way to get rid of the cabin crew union ??


Hopefully people will see big picture, though I am sure there will be an element of crew (perhaps only here for the jolly) who will take the lolly not caring about the future.

As for scratching the rest of my roster after the strike dates, that's fine by me, but my days off are my days off.


I see the big freeze is forecast next week too snow Ice and -12 and maybe -17 in the midlands !! brrrr See Yahoo for details. so now we have bad weather, baa and virgin, it's going to make for a horrid start to the new year.


Out of interest what is min crew to despatch a 74 or scarebus I cant remember, I should probably know it too ! oops