Virgin - Crew Discussions II
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bulbs,
Accepting only 2% when cost of lviing gone up >4% not smart.
Not happy with only 2% in your department - get a union.
Have to give up years of seniority and leave due to my employer reducing my working lifestyle and conditons - not on your nelly now exercising my rights as a union member.
It's that simple
for everything else there's mastercard !
p.s. Have never said am looking for crazy rises, my threads show what I am looking for.
Accepting only 2% when cost of lviing gone up >4% not smart.
Not happy with only 2% in your department - get a union.
Have to give up years of seniority and leave due to my employer reducing my working lifestyle and conditons - not on your nelly now exercising my rights as a union member.
It's that simple
for everything else there's mastercard !p.s. Have never said am looking for crazy rises, my threads show what I am looking for.
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Quotye Scoobydoo:
And there in that sentance we have the crux of the matter.
There is a small minority of Cabin crew who are prepared to destroy Virgin Atlantic so they can get their demands agreed totally.
Stuff the fact it will cause many to lose their jobs, just so when we go to the next airline they can say "We can get all our demands met just like at Virgin, even though they went down"
Just like the miners, just like the Rover workers, the end justifies the death of the industry/company.
If that means using the A-Bomb to end it all as Hiroshima did then so be it - it was a drastic measure but achieved the end result. The pilots striking (I know %'s were very different but the weapon of choice was the same, the equivalent of a company A-Bomb and in your case it achieved its goals we are hoping for the same).
There is a small minority of Cabin crew who are prepared to destroy Virgin Atlantic so they can get their demands agreed totally.
Stuff the fact it will cause many to lose their jobs, just so when we go to the next airline they can say "We can get all our demands met just like at Virgin, even though they went down"
Just like the miners, just like the Rover workers, the end justifies the death of the industry/company.
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Warkman
Every coin has 2 sides, you have focused and drawn reference to every industrial action which has led to company collapse - Though you have not drawn reference to the ones where the unions and employees achieved their goals. e.g. A near strike in Virgin a few years back by non other than our pilots. If you read the trade union news you can see a long list of companies in the last year who have taken industrial action and the result has been the employees have achieved their goals.
I would reword it, " There are a number of cabin crew who appreciate that in order to make any further progress the only course of action left is the threat of industrial action which may carry a risk however the risk to reward ratio is in their favour".
Every coin has 2 sides, you have focused and drawn reference to every industrial action which has led to company collapse - Though you have not drawn reference to the ones where the unions and employees achieved their goals. e.g. A near strike in Virgin a few years back by non other than our pilots. If you read the trade union news you can see a long list of companies in the last year who have taken industrial action and the result has been the employees have achieved their goals.
There is a small minority of Cabin crew who are prepared to destroy Virgin Atlantic so they can get their demands agreed totally.
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As you say two sides.
Re the companies where the Unions acheived their goals, at what cost? I bet the union paper does not tell you how many jobs were lost after that, or how many of those companies sent further jobs and buisness abroad.
What size were these companies? that can also have an effect. rather like comparing BA to Virgin really.
As for the pilots, I am sure one will be along in a min to explain that they were supported by all the pilots, that all (or was it the majority?) were in the union and that it had taken them years to get to that position, you don't have the support of the majority of unionised crew let alone the whole cabin crew comliment. That is a major difference.
But we will see soon.
What is the date given by the unions for the return of the ballot papers?
Re the companies where the Unions acheived their goals, at what cost? I bet the union paper does not tell you how many jobs were lost after that, or how many of those companies sent further jobs and buisness abroad.
What size were these companies? that can also have an effect. rather like comparing BA to Virgin really.
As for the pilots, I am sure one will be along in a min to explain that they were supported by all the pilots, that all (or was it the majority?) were in the union and that it had taken them years to get to that position, you don't have the support of the majority of unionised crew let alone the whole cabin crew comliment. That is a major difference.
But we will see soon.
What is the date given by the unions for the return of the ballot papers?
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I fully appreciate the following and percentages were different with the pilots I only drew reference to them striking as you drew reference to cabin crew being prepared to destroy Virgin Atlantic by threatening to strike. Exactly the same as the pilots did - this was the only similarity I was drawing, in effect the tool of choice is exactly the same (so by your rational the pilots were also prepared to destroy Virgin Atlantic by striking at a time when revenues and turnovers were lower) , but accept underlying conditions different.
As for companies and size, feel free to have a look at each union website site as for company sizes, take BMI for example if we are not allowed to use BA as an example and other companies, it's not all end of the world outcomes.
Dates - dont know not received my union communication yet.
Regards
Scooby
As for companies and size, feel free to have a look at each union website site as for company sizes, take BMI for example if we are not allowed to use BA as an example and other companies, it's not all end of the world outcomes.
Dates - dont know not received my union communication yet.
Regards
Scooby
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scooby.....
the differences between you and the pilots ive listed below...
1. Pilots take years to train..... and gain enough hours... and as a result are not easy for the company to replace
2. the pilots stuck together
1. Cabin crew........ dont take years to train......
2. Theres a queue a mile long of school leavers who would love to do the job..... so you are readily replaceable
3. From what i can see on here you all have different objectives and are disorganised.....
the differences between you and the pilots ive listed below...
1. Pilots take years to train..... and gain enough hours... and as a result are not easy for the company to replace
2. the pilots stuck together
1. Cabin crew........ dont take years to train......
2. Theres a queue a mile long of school leavers who would love to do the job..... so you are readily replaceable
3. From what i can see on here you all have different objectives and are disorganised.....
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Bulbs,
points noted, as mentioned in previous post only reason I drew parallel is that both were/are prepared to in warkmans words "destroy the company" in order to achieve to receive equal/similar remuneration/terms in comparison to those in equivalent roles with different employers.
However for one party to do it it was acceptable and for the other it is not. This is what I do not understand - or did the pilots cop as much flak from other departments when they were about to strike, I wasnt a pruner then
So those not in favour of striking and whilst I acknowledge the two scenarios are very different you have nothing to worry about then if it is such a minority prepared to strike right ?
points noted, as mentioned in previous post only reason I drew parallel is that both were/are prepared to in warkmans words "destroy the company" in order to achieve to receive equal/similar remuneration/terms in comparison to those in equivalent roles with different employers.
However for one party to do it it was acceptable and for the other it is not. This is what I do not understand - or did the pilots cop as much flak from other departments when they were about to strike, I wasnt a pruner then
So those not in favour of striking and whilst I acknowledge the two scenarios are very different you have nothing to worry about then if it is such a minority prepared to strike right ?
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It is becoming increasingly clear that some of you who are advocating industrial action have a very limited understanding of history and its relevance to your argument. The pilots never even came close to a strike. It is fairly obvious that it suits some militants to ignore that fact but in order to address it in isolation, during our negotiations with the company, there were times when we believed we may have to resort to it. However, we never came close and we certainly never rejected our union reps recommendations and we certainly never go to the stage where the cabin crew are at right now.
So, if you are going to keep harping on about how we the pilots, were prepared to bring the company down in order to achieve our demands, then at least get your facts straight. Had we been prepared to go that far? We'll never know. What we do know is that we had over 90% membership in one union and over 90% acceptance of our unions recommendation.
Now, let's compare that to the current cabin crew situation. You have barely 65% union membership and barely 60% bother to return their ballots and only 60% of those rejected the current offer. Your union leaders have not even given the company the mandatory information on their decision about when to ballot for industrial action. Yet here we have a few militants harping on with distortions and suppositions based on flawed information talking about being prepared to bring the company down as though the are sure that they'll have some sort of miraculous overwhelming support from a disinterested, marginal majority of their colleagues.
It is embarrassing to watch some of you use comparisons to the suffering of those who had to endure the hardships of world war II with your analogies of A-bombs and their influences on the outcome of the war. All you have succeeded in doing is convince many more of us who sympathise with your problems regarding pay and conditions, into believing that you are little more than a bunch of no-hopers with grandiose ideas which bear little relevance to the goals your colleagues would like to achieve.
You would be better served if you were to act realistically by accepting what is on offer now and then regrouping in readiness for the next round of negotiations in a little over a year from now. It's all very well harping on about how you are going to use your "A-Bomb" when in fact all you have is a few fire crackers. It would be comical if it weren't so pathetic.
All you and your pitiful excuse for a union leadership have managed to do is create some uncertainty for our customers which will have an adverse effect on the company's bottom line which in turn will mean that you have weakened your position even further for the next time around. When you can approach the company with a very solid majority of members who are able to comprehend what is involved in the negotiations and are prepared to support your reps overwhelmingly, then you can start to wield a bigger stick.
Do us all a favour and stop pretending that you are somehow going to bring the company to its knees with your unrealistic demands. You are about to fail miserably and that damage will set you even further back than if you were to accept the current offer, as per YOUR unions recommendation. All that will happen is that you are going to be in an even weaker position for the next time you have to go into negotiations.
The pilots have never threatened to strike. We never rejected the recommendations of our union. And most importantly, the vast majority of our membership had a very clear understanding of what was on offer and what our options were. Do not compare yourself to the pilots as it is like comparing chalk and cheese when it comes to the examples being bandied about by a few blinkered militants.
So, if you are going to keep harping on about how we the pilots, were prepared to bring the company down in order to achieve our demands, then at least get your facts straight. Had we been prepared to go that far? We'll never know. What we do know is that we had over 90% membership in one union and over 90% acceptance of our unions recommendation.
Now, let's compare that to the current cabin crew situation. You have barely 65% union membership and barely 60% bother to return their ballots and only 60% of those rejected the current offer. Your union leaders have not even given the company the mandatory information on their decision about when to ballot for industrial action. Yet here we have a few militants harping on with distortions and suppositions based on flawed information talking about being prepared to bring the company down as though the are sure that they'll have some sort of miraculous overwhelming support from a disinterested, marginal majority of their colleagues.
It is embarrassing to watch some of you use comparisons to the suffering of those who had to endure the hardships of world war II with your analogies of A-bombs and their influences on the outcome of the war. All you have succeeded in doing is convince many more of us who sympathise with your problems regarding pay and conditions, into believing that you are little more than a bunch of no-hopers with grandiose ideas which bear little relevance to the goals your colleagues would like to achieve.
You would be better served if you were to act realistically by accepting what is on offer now and then regrouping in readiness for the next round of negotiations in a little over a year from now. It's all very well harping on about how you are going to use your "A-Bomb" when in fact all you have is a few fire crackers. It would be comical if it weren't so pathetic.
All you and your pitiful excuse for a union leadership have managed to do is create some uncertainty for our customers which will have an adverse effect on the company's bottom line which in turn will mean that you have weakened your position even further for the next time around. When you can approach the company with a very solid majority of members who are able to comprehend what is involved in the negotiations and are prepared to support your reps overwhelmingly, then you can start to wield a bigger stick.
Do us all a favour and stop pretending that you are somehow going to bring the company to its knees with your unrealistic demands. You are about to fail miserably and that damage will set you even further back than if you were to accept the current offer, as per YOUR unions recommendation. All that will happen is that you are going to be in an even weaker position for the next time you have to go into negotiations.
The pilots have never threatened to strike. We never rejected the recommendations of our union. And most importantly, the vast majority of our membership had a very clear understanding of what was on offer and what our options were. Do not compare yourself to the pilots as it is like comparing chalk and cheese when it comes to the examples being bandied about by a few blinkered militants.
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It is embarrassing to watch some of you use comparisons to the suffering of those who had to endure the hardships of world war II with your analogies of A-bombs and their influences on the outcome of the war
The pilots never even came close to a strike.
The following is fromt he independant 2001, you rejected an offer and the union was preparing an industrial ballot (as they are now in our case) I would say that is a similar position in terms of how close to striking, thoughe once again I stress the differences are noted.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/tra...icle253740.ece
Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Atlantic airline faces strike action after 95 per cent of its pilots rejected a pay offer.
Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Atlantic airline faces strike action after 95 per cent of its pilots rejected a pay offer.
Sir Richard, anxious to avoid cancellations by passengers seeking to avoid industrial action, intervened personally but failed to persuade flight crew to accept a 5 per cent pay rise.
An internal memo reveals that Virgin tried to ensure that news of the strike threat did not leak out. The confidential letter warned that the business would be damaged and Virgin's image tarnished if passengers "get wind of potential disruption".
Virgin management will make a final attempt to reach a deal on Monday but members of the British Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa) said there would need to be a significant improvement in the pay offer. The union, which recently secured recognition by Virgin, is preparing for a ballot on industrial action if there is no breakthrough.
Pilots want a two-year deal worth 12 per cent above inflation and a 3.5 per cent boost to pensions. Pilots' representatives argue that Virgin's flight crew are paid 25 per cent less than their colleagues at British Airways, where senior captains earn more than £100,000 a year.
The letter, by Malcolm Wagstaff, Virgin Atlantic's flight operations director, conceded that the airline was "not a market leader" for pay but said it could not afford a bigger rise. "The commercial damage ... starts from the moment customers get wind of a potential for disruption," he wrote. "Our reputation and image, as well as opportunities for growth and stability, will be jeopardised."
Many thanks for your responses, if I have made a mistake and you did not indeed get close to striking as the news article details then I apologise, however I feel your aggressive tone is unwarranted.
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If crew are so easy to replace then why are we always short of crew?
If pilots are sooooo hard to find - why do we have enough!!!!!
If pilots are sooooo hard to find - why do we have enough!!!!!
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Income Protection
Hello all,
I have just reread my benefits page in my offer letter, and I noticed that after 12 months we get Income Protection.
Please could someone let me know about this? I have private cover and wondering if it would be worth saving the £25 a month if Virgin will cover me.
Any advice would be great, either here or PVT.
Thanks,
Keiran.
I have just reread my benefits page in my offer letter, and I noticed that after 12 months we get Income Protection.
Please could someone let me know about this? I have private cover and wondering if it would be worth saving the £25 a month if Virgin will cover me.
Any advice would be great, either here or PVT.
Thanks,
Keiran.
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Now Is Not The Time To Get Disheartened My Fellow Cabin Crew, Lets Not Lose Sight Of Our Goal,
To Get A Fair Pay For The Job That We Do,
Do Not Get Dragged Into Other Dept's Debates That Is Their Issues
The Do Not Have A Union And I Bet They Wish They Did
We Have Came This Far And We Are Close To Obtaining More
We Can Afford To Lose A Days Pay More Than The Company Can
Any 'Downsizing' In The Company Should Be Done At The Expense Of Strambi, Moir, Lee And Ridgeway
They Are The Ones That Are Inept At Their Jobs Sack Them!!!
I Have Spoken To Many Many Crew Who Feel The Same
Vote Yes To Strike!!!!!!
To Get A Fair Pay For The Job That We Do,
Do Not Get Dragged Into Other Dept's Debates That Is Their Issues
The Do Not Have A Union And I Bet They Wish They Did
We Have Came This Far And We Are Close To Obtaining More
We Can Afford To Lose A Days Pay More Than The Company Can
Any 'Downsizing' In The Company Should Be Done At The Expense Of Strambi, Moir, Lee And Ridgeway
They Are The Ones That Are Inept At Their Jobs Sack Them!!!
I Have Spoken To Many Many Crew Who Feel The Same
Vote Yes To Strike!!!!!!
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What a load of old tosh! Your union hasn't exactly done you proud so you lot seem to think. You've been told twice to accept the offer yet you seem to think there's still more in the pot. You guys are always wittering on about how bad your pay is, yet you're happy to strike and lose more wages. Do you lot actually understand what "strike" means? From what I hear there's a hardcore minority of crew who want to strike and are dragging many other crew members in on it all who don't really understand the implications of what they are actually saying "yes" or "no" to.
The majority of us on the ground don't have unions, and I don't think we wished we did either - we deal with the management ourselves face to face, and they don't get an easy ride these days. I think mentioning sacking Strambi, Moir, Lee and Ridgeway is a bit harsh. It's more than likely thanks to those guys that we still have an airline to work for when you consider all the events of the last few years - 9/11 etc etc.
The airline doesn't revolve around the cabin crew - yes you're on the front line but you're not the only people working for Virgin Atlantic. There's a lot more to it that means our aircraft get off the ground everyday, and all you're doing is holding everybody and their jobs to ransom.
And yes, we did only get a 2% payrise this year - but did we all switch off our pc's, put down our biros, tools etc and strike - no, I think not. What would the Cabin Crew have done then if we had been able to strike and grounded the aircraft - because you wouldn't have been flying. You would have all been up in arms no doubt!
Seems you guys want it all your own way, when unfortunately life isn't like that. Just accept the offer on the table because I very much doubt it'll change.
The majority of us on the ground don't have unions, and I don't think we wished we did either - we deal with the management ourselves face to face, and they don't get an easy ride these days. I think mentioning sacking Strambi, Moir, Lee and Ridgeway is a bit harsh. It's more than likely thanks to those guys that we still have an airline to work for when you consider all the events of the last few years - 9/11 etc etc.
The airline doesn't revolve around the cabin crew - yes you're on the front line but you're not the only people working for Virgin Atlantic. There's a lot more to it that means our aircraft get off the ground everyday, and all you're doing is holding everybody and their jobs to ransom.
And yes, we did only get a 2% payrise this year - but did we all switch off our pc's, put down our biros, tools etc and strike - no, I think not. What would the Cabin Crew have done then if we had been able to strike and grounded the aircraft - because you wouldn't have been flying. You would have all been up in arms no doubt!
Seems you guys want it all your own way, when unfortunately life isn't like that. Just accept the offer on the table because I very much doubt it'll change.
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What a load of old tosh! - you are just jealous because you don't have the balls to form a union to represent you.
You deal with management face to face - well I suppose better being lied to face to face than via iFly.
We only got a 2% payrise - so form a union obviously your face to face negotiations didn't work?
What would the cabin crew have done if you had gone on strike? - support you
Want it all our own way - I don't think so. The pilots stuck together, we can, you should.
VOTE YES to STRIKE
You deal with management face to face - well I suppose better being lied to face to face than via iFly.
We only got a 2% payrise - so form a union obviously your face to face negotiations didn't work?
What would the cabin crew have done if you had gone on strike? - support you
Want it all our own way - I don't think so. The pilots stuck together, we can, you should.
VOTE YES to STRIKE
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Thats enough mud slinging methinks.........
nuts&bolts: Please do not make judgements of crew as a whole. Its unfair and downright rude. Look back through the threads, this has been agreed that we would not do this. 29% of crew voted No to the last offer, so you have no right to refer to the other 71% in the way that you do.
Backtofront and JB1888:
Load of old tosh!
Think I'll only read Kasual Observers posts from now on, and of course our Scoobs................................
Thats a thought. Scoobs, why dont you take on board what KO has said and become our new rep?
nuts&bolts: Please do not make judgements of crew as a whole. Its unfair and downright rude. Look back through the threads, this has been agreed that we would not do this. 29% of crew voted No to the last offer, so you have no right to refer to the other 71% in the way that you do.
Backtofront and JB1888:
Load of old tosh!
Think I'll only read Kasual Observers posts from now on, and of course our Scoobs................................
Thats a thought. Scoobs, why dont you take on board what KO has said and become our new rep?
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Sign-it-to-your-room, I do apologise but the last couple of pages on this post were enough to rile me. This negotiation is at a crucial stage and we're now hearing quite enough in the workplace, in the press etc etc. Some of the comments on the last couple of pages are VERY valid and sensible such as Kasual Observers, yet others are still dead set on striking. I'm not juding the crew as a whole. We're very aware of the breakdowns of what percentage did or didnt return a vote. We have around 3500 crew yet how many actually bothered to vote or are in the union - we know because it's been worked out on here. There's no way I'd tar all the crew with the same brush and I can assure you I don't. We have an excellent bunch of crew who unfortunately are being dragged down by a minority.
Back2front - What difference does having a union make, if the money isn't in the pot to start with you can't have it in your wage packet. How many crew in the union have slagged of Unite/Amicus because they feel they've been sold down the river or they haven't got the result they wanted. After being strongly advised to accept the 2nd offer it still came back as a "NO" vote. To see the mess you guys are in now and arguing amongst yourselves, what good has the union done the crew? If I thought you guys were getting a bad deal then yes I'd support you, but at this stage I think you need to be realistic and accept whats there. The pilots did stick together, but never found themselves in the mess the crew are currently in.
It's all a bit of a shambles to be honest, and I'll just sit back and watch as to when those voting "YES" to a strike create uncertainly amongst our customers, and cause unrest for others working in the company.
Back2front - What difference does having a union make, if the money isn't in the pot to start with you can't have it in your wage packet. How many crew in the union have slagged of Unite/Amicus because they feel they've been sold down the river or they haven't got the result they wanted. After being strongly advised to accept the 2nd offer it still came back as a "NO" vote. To see the mess you guys are in now and arguing amongst yourselves, what good has the union done the crew? If I thought you guys were getting a bad deal then yes I'd support you, but at this stage I think you need to be realistic and accept whats there. The pilots did stick together, but never found themselves in the mess the crew are currently in.
It's all a bit of a shambles to be honest, and I'll just sit back and watch as to when those voting "YES" to a strike create uncertainly amongst our customers, and cause unrest for others working in the company.
Last edited by Nuts&Bolts; 11th Nov 2007 at 12:49.
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N&B
TO keep it short and simple, yes the union is not perfect, what good has it done...
in summary without it the pay rises that have been negotiated over the last 5 years would at maximum half of what we have achieved, so - less union fees we are still better off than not having a union.
Granted it could do with some serious improvements in the communications with members area and a few other areas to but on the whole crew are better off because of it.
TO keep it short and simple, yes the union is not perfect, what good has it done...
in summary without it the pay rises that have been negotiated over the last 5 years would at maximum half of what we have achieved, so - less union fees we are still better off than not having a union.
Granted it could do with some serious improvements in the communications with members area and a few other areas to but on the whole crew are better off because of it.