Virgin - Crew Discussions II

[boeing boeing.. gone]

I have read the thread for while in utter dismay. I am a long term flyer and supporter of Virgin but I have to admit the last 4 or 5 times I have flown with VAA the service on the trips hasn't been great, at times the CC have been disinterested and have spent much of the trips in the galley talking about parties down route (granted not all CC are like this). Would I pay an extra £15 for my ticket to give CC a raise.... No, if ticket prices go up (and ticket prices end up over that of BA) to fund a deal I would take my business elsewhere, as countless posts have pointed out VAA has competition on all of its routes.

For me its simple if the wages at VAA were that bad people would leave and no-one would want to join, therefore VAA would have to increase pay levels to attract staff. You have all signed up to the wages and the terms and conditions. its simple economics.

You all want to protect seniority, but if this did not exist perhaps it would be easier to leave a company for another to get better wages rather than having to go to the bottom of the list????

When is the strike planned for does anyone know?? I am flying in december on VAA and really would rather change my flight than have my holiday plans suffer???

thanks

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Jcdcon:
"I for the record, am very happy with my current package, and my current T & C's of employment. I am aware that I am in the minority. I would however hope that those who are not, use their voices accordingly. The time to make stances without SERIOUS repercussions for all VAA depts is over. Its too late to say "I want, I want".

No we are not! Thats the only positive thing at the moment. 29% of our entire crew voted to reject this offer, how many do you think will have the courage of their convictions and vote yes to strike? I'd say about half!

It may still win them the vote within the union, but looking at the bigger picture, us Yes (to take the current offer) voters far outweigh them.

Boeing boeing gone:
I dont want to sound like a know-it-all, but I think that you're gonna be okay. You shall go to the ball!

[virginboi]

Virgin C/CStrike action

Belive me guys the company will not back down this has gone as far as it will go.
Just look at what is on the table now dont be silly and expect to blackmail the company into a pay rise it wont work all you will do is hurt our customers and other staff.
Stop being so selfish grow up and get on with it or get out!!

[stansdead]

As an A340 pilot with VS, I urge you all to consider this seriously.

I really do not believe there will be a better offer coming this time around.

You should accept the 4.8%, take the back pay, look forward to RPI next year and decide as a WHOLE GROUP what you want next time round.

Your pay deal is backdated to April. That means that in 12 months time your reps will be negotiating another deal.

Either back your reps by accepting this deal, or show them the door by refusing it. You can't have it both ways.

By the way, how many of you have thought of what happens if you get stuck down route on strike days? I don't know the answer, but I think you may be on your own with no allowances or hotel room.

What ever you all decide, I hope you understand why EXACTLY you are doing it.

[sukigirl]

I try to be a silent reader of this thread and not post to many of my comments, however I am amazed and also cringing at the immaturity of some of our crew.

Comments like incentives for mco, mia for example .... everyone has flights they like dislike for different reasons but we are no longer in high school being bribed by our parents to do our schoolwork. This is the real world of employment, In every job there are tasks that employees probably hate doing. I could go on with many more examples of childish demands of the company but I dont want to start getting into a 'tit for tat' scenario. However I feel that these are the comments that are letting us down and showing the crew in a bad light.

I will say though to posters in this forum from other depts, please do not tar us with the same brush by applying all your personal comments to all of us. comments about the cars we drive, where we drink etc are not helpfull and cause more bad feeling. I can understand why you may feel crew are being selfish and some are, but you could have your depts represented by a union also, and perhaps you should, as clearly and understandably you were unhappy with your latest pay offer. As it has been pointed out many times now only around 30% of crew have voted to reject the offer, There are still a number of us who are happy to accept the latest deal, not to strike and keep everyones jobs secure and not to forget our pax happy.

[sign-it-to-your-room]

This may seem terribly naive, but if only 29% of crew voted NO to the last ballot then that leaves 71% of the company who would say yes. Cant VAA conduct their own ballot or are we strictly unionised now? Seems odd that it is a such a small percentage 'ruling' the game.
What about those of us who choose not to be in a union? Cant we just accept it? lol
Feedback please

[jnr light blub tech]

strike!!!!

im sorry to say, that after talking to the crew today, they do not have the balls to fight this!!!!

there is no unity, and no belief. you have lost out!!!!

the postman stuck together and won !!!!
cabin crew no chance!!!!

[sign-it-to-your-room]

I knew it! I said it all along!
Daft monkeys some of them (n.b. I said some of them)

I feel frustrated for the rest of us. Please , anyone, give me some feedback on my last post!

[VIRGIN CSS]

As I have said in previous posts I will be voting No to Strike.

I have spoken to the CAB and to BALPA today and this is what they said to me. I am saying you as 1 person not we as in all us crew.

If you are downroute on a strike day and there is an Aircraft there waiting for you to take it back home and you refuse to work Virgin do not have to give you any extra allowance or provide a hotel room for you as you are refusing to work and as you are not on UK soil are not covered by UK law. It would be unlikley that they would do this as tey would need you to operate the flight once the strike wa sover. However if you did refuse to work a flight for no reason other than sickness then when you return to base Virgin have the right to cease your employment.The only way around this would be for a doctor downroute to say you were unfit to fly.

If you were downroute and there was no Aircraft for you take home then Virgin have a duty of care to consider and have to give you allowance and a hotel room. However if Virgin require you to fly elsewhere to take an Aircraft home then you will have to for e.g fly from BOS to JFK and then take a VS flight back to the UK. Again if you refused Virgin can cease your employment once back at base, Unless again you had a doctor say you were not fit to fly.

As for someone saying that we shoud get incentives to fly the less popular routes keep it real. Imangine if an Engineer said to Virgin they wanted an incentive to come to work on cold and rainy days as it was unpopular to work outside in those conditions. They would get laughed at. Its all part of the job. You just do it. Unless you can swap off it. Yes we can do that at Virgin.

Also some people saying all crew are the same were not all the same. I for 1 am not pushing for a strike. I voted YES to the last offer and will be voting NO to strike. I will like many others be offering my services to Virgin once my vote has been counted and after my union membership has been canx. I will not join the union again as I feel they have done a good job at communicating to virgin what we want. Virgin took it upon themselves to ask us. For that reason Virgin have a tiny bit more of my respect that the union do. I will be going to work on Strike day/s and I will be proving a great service to our customers that have been loyal to us.

Virgin are still our employer and they are still paying my wages they have broke no contract with me. So I will not break my contract with them. If we go on Strike it's not only us that will be affected but our Customers our business and above all the many other Virgin Atlantic staff around the world that help keep the Airline running. Think about how many people a strike will affect.

We are not BA,QF,AI,CX,AA,UA,CO,KL,SQ or any of the other major airlines we are Virgin Atlantic we are no more better that the rest but we are differant and we should all be doing whats best for Virgin Atlantic not just whats best for us. If you don't like the condition or pay at VS then have a look around at other carriers and see what they can offer you that Virgin can't if you liek what you see go there but please remember all the crew that have left and then came back to VS. I know a few.

I am going to cut and paste this as pointe dout in other posts I have 2 differant names. One Virgin CSS and the other Virgin FSM. I have nothing to hide. When I opened one I was a CSS then when I opened the other I was FSM. Simple.

When you get your ballot paper please think about what you are doing and how many people putting a cross next to the YES to strike will do and then look at the other option NO to strike and consider using it. Next time pay talks come up it will be be much better.

If you still vote YES to strike not many flights will be grounded. There are enough people out there to take flights out. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Let the insults begin. I know I will get a few.

Take Care and happy flying.

[Kasual Observer]

As a Virgin pilot, I am becoming increasingly concerned at the levels of naivety being displayed here and from chatting generally with the cabin crew when on flights. It is very frustrating to see some of the comments, especially those about "incentives" to work particular routes and also, how we, the pilots, supposedly voted to strike during our negotiations a few years ago.

First of all, we never voted for industrial action. We never even got close to that situation. Anyone mentioning that we did, as some kind of incentive for the cabin crew to vote for industrial action, needs their heads examining and should be treated as the incompetents that they really are.

As a reminder to all the cabin crew who bother to read this and listen to the advice we the pilots are able to offer, we had almost total union membership. The numbers were over 90%. On top of that, we had complete faith in our union reps and they had the total backing of our union with expert advice and assistance during our negotiations with the company. On top of that, we actually showed the company how we could fund our pay increase without hurting the company.

At no stage did the negotiations break down and the membership were never balloted for industrial action. So, any cabin crew member saying that we put the company in a situation whereby they had no choice but to agree to our demands is nothing but an ignorant and naive trouble maker.

In addition to having an overwhelming majority of pilots in the ONE union, we had complete faith in our negotiators, were kept fully informed of developments through our dedicated website and proper communications, AND, when balloted on recommendations, the overwhelming majority of us returned our ballots.

By comparison, you, the cabin crew, are fragmented, have no faith in your negotiators, have almost no idea what is being offered and are, in general, displaying naivety that is cringeworthy. From what I can gather, only about 65% of you are actually in THE union [sic]. Of those 65%, only 69% of them bothered to return their ballots and of those, only 60% agreed to turn down the offer. Basic maths, which appears to be deficient in many of those calling for industrial action, is obviously not a strong point. To assist, I will try and break it down into digestible pieces:

Approx 3,500 cabin crew.
Approx 65% in union = 2,275
69% returned ballot = 1,570
60% of returned ballots voted to reject the offer = 942

So, what is clear is that 942 out of 3,500 cabin crew rejected the offer. It is all very well claiming that 60% rejected the offer but without emphasising that it was only 60% of those that bothered to return their ballots, it is meaningless. Anyway, back to basic maths:

942 out of 3,500 cabin crew = 26.9% have rejected the offer. The other 73.1% have not rejected or accepted the offer.

So, having twice voted against the recommendations by your union reps which for all intents and purposes is a vote of no confidence in them, less than 30% of you have forced the union to ballot for industrial action. It's all very well having your reps then turn around and try to save face by going to the media and claiming that they have majority support for industrial action, which in turn has an immediate impact on the company with passengers changing plans and corporate customers making alternative arrangements, but the damage has been done and the more militant cabin crew members spout on about the fact that even if those that bother to return ballots are in a majority then the rest of the membership have to come out in support.

It is a bit like watching you all walk into a well prepared ambush. You have a slight majority of cabin crew in the union and of those, most don't understand what is involved in the negotiations thanks to overdoses of Big Brother, Hello magazine, Soap Operas and a very flawed education system. On top of that, those that did attempt to take part by returning their ballots, only 60% of them, not exactly an overwhelming majority, rejected the offer without understanding the consequences. To top it all off, you have no faith in your reps but are prepared to have them lead you into possible industrial action. If you can't see the futility in all of that then you probably deserve the consequences you are likely to suffer.

The idea that you need "incentives" to work particular routes should be a total non-starter. You ask us to ignore what you do downroute with your allowances, fair enough, but don't forget that we, the pilots, see how many crew fail to report due to "sickness". Whilst we all agree that no one should come to work if genuinely sick, it is very apparent that there are significant numbers of cabin crew who abuse the system. We all know that trips that infringe the weekend have a much higher number of crew calling in "sick". Whilst it is only a minority, it is a significant minority and gives the company ammunition to use against you when negotiating crew down payments. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see how that could be abused should they agree to some of the demands being made for increased crew down payments. I won't go into details here but if you don't follow my reasoning then you really should be doing a bit more homework.

At the end of the day, most of the pilots agree that you should get better remuneration for all the training and work you do. However, we strongly advise you to go about it properly. You need to get rid of your current union and their inept negotiators/reps. Those of you who are passionate about working for Virgin Atlantic Airways and have the intelligence and commitment to do something about it, need to organise the rest of your colleagues and educate them about the benefits of belonging to a proper union that has the ability to properly represent you. Your union needs to have a track record of successful negotiation and the management of that union needs to have the credentials and expertise on board.

Once you have found that union, you need to organise your colleagues into joining that union and then electing your reps. Your reps have to have the intelligence and education necessary to understand what is involved when negotiating with a corporate team and your union has to provide any necessary training for your reps to handle these situations. You also need to have a dedicated website where your reps can keep your membership up to date with DETAILED information on what is on offer and what is being requested.

Once you have that in place and you have persuaded a significant majority of your colleagues to join this union, only then will you be in a position to start negotiating for real improvements to your terms and conditions. Of course, none of this happens overnight and takes dedication and hard work. Also, unless someone is prepared to stick their heads above the parapet and start this organisation, you aren't going to be getting anywhere.

In the meantime, it is fairly obvious that there is no real stomach for industrial action by the overwhelming majority of cabin crew even though your union and reps are harping on about rejecting the current offer and voting for strike action. It is fairly obvious that there will be a rejection of industrial action and the current offer will be accepted. All that will have been achieved is a total waste of time and some damage to revenues for the company due to the feeble threat of industrial action in the first place.

The management of the company have a lot to answer for too. It is sheer incompetence that they let the negotiations get to this stage in the first place. Whilst there is always some give and take during negotiations, many of us pilots feel that the management showed a complete lack of understanding of the dissatisfaction amongst the cabin crew and their initial offers were indeed insulting. The least they could have done after revising the offer to the current one is apologise for not getting it right the first time around. That at least would have gone a long way towards pacifying many of you and accepting the current offer whilst giving yourselves time to regroup and plan your strategies for the next round of negotiations a year or so from now.

The whole situation is a mess. Shoddy management together with naive expectations from some cabin crew and now damage to revenues thanks to the threat of industrial action which will never get that far.

There is an old saying that goes along the lines of "Better to keep quiet and let others think you are a fool rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt." Just think about that before some of you post your thoughts on here and discuss the current situation. If you are going to make claims and comparisons, make sure you do your homework.

[sign-it-to-your-room]

KO

Welcome back Oh Voice of reason!
Good old common sense with no molly coddling.

[orangelitebulbtech]

At last some voices of reason

Having come into contact with jnr cabin crew whilst they are on aircraft visits on the ground at LHR i am not really that surprised at the level of naivety shown by some on this thread..... some of the questions asked during these visits are mind boggling

Perhaps some of these people should also consider the timescale involved in training flight deck and engineers...... it aint six weeks so perhaps the salary's involved may reflect this?.



Anyway i'm off now to work on a list of jobs i dont like doing while at work and some possible incentives the company could offer......

Erm......

1. Dont like working in the rain..... £10 ?

2. I hate working on mondays £20?

3. A wheel change...... oooh .....erm.... £50?

[Grease 7]

Kasual Observer : Extremely well said Sir!!


Oh and could I get £60 and a Lieu Day for a toilet change.............

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Stop taking the piss boys. You promised you wouldnt do it anymore!
Its less than 30% of crew remember?

[orangelitebulbtech]

No problem.... stop taking the p*ss...... yes........ it'll cost you........erm shall we say £25?

[stormin norman]

Stick with your convictions and take him on.

Good luck

[sign-it-to-your-room]

A glimpse into the future...........................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm6VC5gdaFA

and something to lighten the mood!

[Armed&Crosschecked]

Now is a very unsettling time for all concerned at Virgin.
Please think long and hard about the decision to strike... it will affect everyone -

* Passengers will look elsewhere to ensure they are not stranded or lose their flights
* The losses suffered by the company will no doubt result in redundancies from all areas... crew (whether they were involved or not) and ground based staff (who are not involved in the dispute at all).

Virgin is not that big an airline and historically the Aviation industry is an unstable one... (MyTravel merger / GB buyout by Easyjet are 2 current examples)

Cabin Crew should be paid better and recognised more for what they do
This talk of strikes must've made the Management sit up and take notice but a strike will be more detrimental than anyone could imagine and in the short term could make matters worse.

The Cabin crew have shown that they mean business and in the future this mess they are in now could be a great bargaining tool for future pay negotiations but if a stike goes ahead there may not be much of a company left to bargain with....

[scoobydooo]

So I go away for a few days and this like cc.com has become a mud slinging forum for people from other departments telling everyone who is fighting for their rights how bad they are.

Other departments taking a pop at crew and people posting things from allegedly the CAB which is utter tosh (do a search about what V FSM said CAB said last time and see if it came to fruition - nothing but an attempt at scare talk).

Not really interested in getting involved anymore as the debate has become childish banter and a lot of feet stomping - I only echo Stormin Normans post to stick with your convictions if you believe you deserve more (be it financial, conditions, not more standby - everyone has their own goals)


Being labelled etc etc by other departments and passengers for being prepared to strike for "our" conditions is frankly exactly what we expected. If you are not prepared to represent yourselves through a union (pilots excluded) I dont understand why you have so much to say about people who do fight for what they believe in.

Lucky other departments doesn't sit in on CRM , could be all out war !

Yes the last vote has been left on the table (after yet another false threat that it would be removed if the vote came back NO) and ta-da it's still there, the management really hoping and praying that it will get a last chance revival before having to cough up.


KO writes a sensible piece, however my only response would be that we are now working with what little resources we have left in order to achieve our goals as a direct result if inept union management and virgin management.


If that means using the A-Bomb to end it all as Hiroshima did then so be it - it was a drastic measure but achieved the end result. The pilots striking (I know %'s were very different but the weapon of choice was the same, the equivalent of a company A-Bomb and in your case it achieved its goals we are hoping for the same).

How many times have we heard "final offer", I think the answer is "not for the final time".

[orangelitebulbtech]

Scooby...... are you often prone to exagerating situations?

Accept the 4.8 % and just be happy you aint getting the 2% the rest of the company has been offered...... you will never see the day where you get the figures mentioned on this thread

Or as said by numerous other people on this thread just leave the company and find a job that pays a wage youre happy with... then the company can recruit one of the thousands waiting for your job as virgin cabin crew to replace you

It really is that simple