BA cabin crew strike ballot!
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My general experience with BA I hate to say as pax is pretty poor, they treat passengers with contempt and fellow staff even worse.
I had cause to complain recently as a meal I had pre ordered wasn't onboard leaving me unable to eat anything substantial for 10 hours, at first they thought I was a member of staff on a staff ticket, which I wasn't, I was a full fare passenger, whilst they thought I was a member of staff, I was treated like complete and utter sh*te....inexcusable really!
Once they'd realised they'd f*cked up, I still didn't get an apology, went all sheepish and I got the "it's not my fault so it's unfair of you to complain routine" so I was in a no-win situation!
Never been treated so shabbily by any other airline, not even Ryan Air!!!
Anyway my point is what hope have they got if they're prepared to treat their fellow colleagues so awfully let alone passengers, and why do the Virgin CC always look happy in their work for half the pay and dont seem (and I dont know what goes on behind the scenes, but I do know a few virgin CC) to bitch half as much. The job is hard enough at times as it is so why do they do it?
I had cause to complain recently as a meal I had pre ordered wasn't onboard leaving me unable to eat anything substantial for 10 hours, at first they thought I was a member of staff on a staff ticket, which I wasn't, I was a full fare passenger, whilst they thought I was a member of staff, I was treated like complete and utter sh*te....inexcusable really!
Once they'd realised they'd f*cked up, I still didn't get an apology, went all sheepish and I got the "it's not my fault so it's unfair of you to complain routine" so I was in a no-win situation!
Never been treated so shabbily by any other airline, not even Ryan Air!!!
Anyway my point is what hope have they got if they're prepared to treat their fellow colleagues so awfully let alone passengers, and why do the Virgin CC always look happy in their work for half the pay and dont seem (and I dont know what goes on behind the scenes, but I do know a few virgin CC) to bitch half as much. The job is hard enough at times as it is so why do they do it?
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's a quote:
" If we are to survive the winter, we must cut our costs dramatically. "
This was the BEA Chairman in his Christmas message the 1947 edition of the internal magazine.
British Airways shorthaul operation has a long legacy of high costs to overcome that has not been resolved since then and I doubt anyone here on PPRUNE has the solution - although there are already many offers!
Nothing that BA managers or staff do (or refuse to do) short of closing the shorthaul operation down can ever be as powerful as the market forces that decide whether or not passengers will fly with BA. Passengers vote with their feet at the slightest provocation but over time, will drift back again.
It is price, the schedule and convenience that makes people come back to BA and, dare I say it, the service on board which, compared to some other high-profile carriers, including oneworld members, is often a breath of fresh air.
So for sure, the airline will continue to introduce productivity measures and staff will continue to resist. But even if they take their eye off the ball and ignore the travelling public whilst squabbling amongst themselves, travellers who defect will eventually drift back once the airline resolves it's latest spat.
The question is will this be in enough numbers and in a short enough time to keep the shorthaul operation viable and will the end result justify the squabbles?
Perhaps the answer is to halt the shorthaul operation, take a hit on the profit, make the productivity changes they want, put the rosters they want in place, change salary structures and career paths, remove some senior CC positions and relaunch as a low-cost full service carrier and restart operations.
Either way, passengers will defect but this way, the end result may well be better for everyone.
" If we are to survive the winter, we must cut our costs dramatically. "
This was the BEA Chairman in his Christmas message the 1947 edition of the internal magazine.
British Airways shorthaul operation has a long legacy of high costs to overcome that has not been resolved since then and I doubt anyone here on PPRUNE has the solution - although there are already many offers!
Nothing that BA managers or staff do (or refuse to do) short of closing the shorthaul operation down can ever be as powerful as the market forces that decide whether or not passengers will fly with BA. Passengers vote with their feet at the slightest provocation but over time, will drift back again.
It is price, the schedule and convenience that makes people come back to BA and, dare I say it, the service on board which, compared to some other high-profile carriers, including oneworld members, is often a breath of fresh air.
So for sure, the airline will continue to introduce productivity measures and staff will continue to resist. But even if they take their eye off the ball and ignore the travelling public whilst squabbling amongst themselves, travellers who defect will eventually drift back once the airline resolves it's latest spat.
The question is will this be in enough numbers and in a short enough time to keep the shorthaul operation viable and will the end result justify the squabbles?
Perhaps the answer is to halt the shorthaul operation, take a hit on the profit, make the productivity changes they want, put the rosters they want in place, change salary structures and career paths, remove some senior CC positions and relaunch as a low-cost full service carrier and restart operations.
Either way, passengers will defect but this way, the end result may well be better for everyone.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem is that the union agreements and the management are both archaic state monsters of the past – the implementation of policies that monitor and support staff in equal measures are essential to bringing BA into the modern world.
The ability of cabin crew, management, drivers and other support staff to maintain their privileged positions of relatively high pay for the industry and a large number of staff – where others have managed easily with fewer – is simply a product of that heritage and continue to influence the thinking that perpetrates what the cabin crew on this thread write.
This has continued as the company – though forced on European routes to face low cost competition and up the game accordingly – still has a relatively protected position competitively, as no other can hope to compete with the route structure offered by BA to any London-based business. Businesses would not otherwise choose to fly BA these days with the service levels offered in many cases.
That is changing slowly, but don’t doubt that it will change faster once the EU renegotiate to remove Bermuda II.
The cabin crew ballot is quite frankly greedy – HOWEVER against the background of a management system that is ineffective and cannot sell policies such as the sickness monitoring to the staff effectively; their position is therefore entirely understandable.
An incorporation of cabin crew management with flight crew management is entirely sensible to reduce headcount at management level and enhance management of all crew with manageers who are effective for all staff, thereby eliminating any infighting between these two departments whose safety critical function is eroded by constant bickering and misunderstanding of each other.
Face facts though – with higher fuel costs in the future, the wages paid for what is effectively a job that can be done (legally) with just a few days training are excessive. The premium on top of that for ensuring a good cabin service above competitors and London weighting should not create a package anywhere near as high as it is.
Cabin crew / flight crew pay comparisons are irrelevant, as the latter requires 18 months training and in these days significant capital outlay.
The real comparison is with ground jobs that require erratic working hours in customer service roles with a strong element of responsibility. In this case grossly overpaid is not unjust. How can pay that – incorporating allowances and flight & duty pay – exceeds that of many professionals and graduates be justified? Recruitment policy should perhaps be reconsidered, when one experiences the appalling service levels of particular staff across all cabins – that is management’s problem again however.
All those are moot points however where the management and staff cannot work together. Blame never entirely lies with any one side.
The ability of cabin crew, management, drivers and other support staff to maintain their privileged positions of relatively high pay for the industry and a large number of staff – where others have managed easily with fewer – is simply a product of that heritage and continue to influence the thinking that perpetrates what the cabin crew on this thread write.
This has continued as the company – though forced on European routes to face low cost competition and up the game accordingly – still has a relatively protected position competitively, as no other can hope to compete with the route structure offered by BA to any London-based business. Businesses would not otherwise choose to fly BA these days with the service levels offered in many cases.
That is changing slowly, but don’t doubt that it will change faster once the EU renegotiate to remove Bermuda II.
The cabin crew ballot is quite frankly greedy – HOWEVER against the background of a management system that is ineffective and cannot sell policies such as the sickness monitoring to the staff effectively; their position is therefore entirely understandable.
An incorporation of cabin crew management with flight crew management is entirely sensible to reduce headcount at management level and enhance management of all crew with manageers who are effective for all staff, thereby eliminating any infighting between these two departments whose safety critical function is eroded by constant bickering and misunderstanding of each other.
Face facts though – with higher fuel costs in the future, the wages paid for what is effectively a job that can be done (legally) with just a few days training are excessive. The premium on top of that for ensuring a good cabin service above competitors and London weighting should not create a package anywhere near as high as it is.
Cabin crew / flight crew pay comparisons are irrelevant, as the latter requires 18 months training and in these days significant capital outlay.
The real comparison is with ground jobs that require erratic working hours in customer service roles with a strong element of responsibility. In this case grossly overpaid is not unjust. How can pay that – incorporating allowances and flight & duty pay – exceeds that of many professionals and graduates be justified? Recruitment policy should perhaps be reconsidered, when one experiences the appalling service levels of particular staff across all cabins – that is management’s problem again however.
All those are moot points however where the management and staff cannot work together. Blame never entirely lies with any one side.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rainbow said some cabin attendants at British Airways earn more than some pilots.
Is that really true?
I can't believe people who push trolleys are paid more than the pilots flying the aeroplane?
As a regular passenger and BA shareholder, I think that's bizarre and stupid. How did BA get into such a mess?
Average of 22.9 days sick a year!!!
That's the equivalent of more than a month a year off for so-called sickness. Sounds more like ripping the company off to me.
Is that really true?
I can't believe people who push trolleys are paid more than the pilots flying the aeroplane?
As a regular passenger and BA shareholder, I think that's bizarre and stupid. How did BA get into such a mess?
Average of 22.9 days sick a year!!!
That's the equivalent of more than a month a year off for so-called sickness. Sounds more like ripping the company off to me.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: About 3000 below Midhurst SID I reckon
Posts: 691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGHHHRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!
Rainboe -
Correct. - If you train them for 24 hours a day, seven days a week and cut out some of the important drills required by JAR.
Petitfromage -
Air conditioning is not the problem. Cabin crew members can come within a metre of up to 800 individuals per day! I've lost count of the amount of passengers with viruses, colds and coldsores who've boarded an aircraft, yet most airlines forbid crew operating with colds, flu, coldsores, rashes, within 24 hours of vomiting, diarrhoea, etc. They get an infection then can't fly if affected by the antibiotics prescribed. Its also a physical job and injuries often occur meaning they cannot fly, but can work in the office. All the above is perfectly fine if you're brave enough to struggle into an office, on the ground you dont know when youve got blocked ears!
Crew need to be physically fit, be legally fit to handle food under health and safety regulations, carry out medical procedures and not sniff all over pasengers, in their drinks, their food, etc.
Flying effects your body more at altitude too.
Flight crew are likely to go through some of these problems, but with respect dont have to face the passengers or handle food.
Also if a BA Shorthaul LHR cabin crew member goes sick on the last day of a working block, then has three days off, and phones in fit the day before they are due back, thats FOUR days off sick.
Days off are counted as sick days, 'weekends' off in offices arent.
Rainboe -
It takes 2 weeks to train a cabin crew member.
Petitfromage -
What germs, bacteria and viruses......that is a complete old wives tale. In modern jets the cabin air is completely replaced every 3-5mins. Any air that is recirculated is through Hepa filters. Aircraft cabin air is statistically much better quality than office aircon.
Crew need to be physically fit, be legally fit to handle food under health and safety regulations, carry out medical procedures and not sniff all over pasengers, in their drinks, their food, etc.
Flying effects your body more at altitude too.
Flight crew are likely to go through some of these problems, but with respect dont have to face the passengers or handle food.
Also if a BA Shorthaul LHR cabin crew member goes sick on the last day of a working block, then has three days off, and phones in fit the day before they are due back, thats FOUR days off sick.
Days off are counted as sick days, 'weekends' off in offices arent.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Correct. - If you train them for 24 hours a day, seven days a week and cut out some of the important drills required by JAR.
Air conditioning is not the problem. Cabin crew members can come within a metre of up to 800 individuals per day! I've lost count of the amount of passengers with viruses, colds and coldsores who've boarded an aircraft, yet most airlines forbid crew operating with colds, flu, coldsores, rashes, within 24 hours of vomiting, diarrhoea, etc. They get an infection then can't fly if affected by the antibiotics prescribed. Its also a physical job and injuries often occur meaning they cannot fly, but can work in the office. All the above is perfectly fine if you're brave enough to struggle into an office, on the ground you dont know when youve got blocked ears!
I don't know many people who are either productive or come in when sick on antibiotics in an office environment - others don't want to catch it, and you can't concentrate on office work either.
Also if a BA Shorthaul LHR cabin crew member goes sick on the last day of a working block, then has three days off, and phones in fit the day before they are due back, thats FOUR days off sick.
Stop making excuses...
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Same deal with sickness for pilots. If you go sick then you are classed as sick until you return, even if you weren't rostered any duties. Yet we still manage to be sick half as often as crew, even with more stringent medical requirements. I defy anyone to claim there is not a culture of 'sickies' amongst BA cabin crew. I know it. You know it. Every CC in BA knows somebody who does it, often on a regular basis. The question is how to tackle. EG300 is a blunt and ill-conceived tool, but tackle that culture they must.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: About 3000 below Midhurst SID I reckon
Posts: 691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of course theres the other issue with the fear of taking time off sick, or losing allowances, leading to crew coming into work and spreading it around.
Edited to comment on Re-Heats reply:
Charter training is usually 4 - 6 weeks. Scheduled airlines about the same. Longest I know of was 7 weeks but that was a start up.
Core legal elements are SEP (safety, emergency, equipment, rules, etc). Then aviation medicine and service training are offered. Airlines add in anything else they feel is fundamental to the business.
But then the crew are only there just to serve tea and coffee isn't that right Re-Heat? Hence why they only need 2 weeks. I look forward to seeing vending machines on crewless flights in the future. I'm sure the CAA can bend the regs a little.
An ear infection isnt contageuos as far as I know but antibiotics are used to treat it. Infections occur from initial colds, etc. BA rule is that you must take them for 24 hours clear of duty then if no side effects, you may fly.
Like Carnage, I know of crew who go sick for fun, unfortunately they create people like me that feel they have to make excuses for a sprained foot or a bunged up ear.
Rant over.
Edited to comment on Re-Heats reply:
Charter training is usually 4 - 6 weeks. Scheduled airlines about the same. Longest I know of was 7 weeks but that was a start up.
Core legal elements are SEP (safety, emergency, equipment, rules, etc). Then aviation medicine and service training are offered. Airlines add in anything else they feel is fundamental to the business.
But then the crew are only there just to serve tea and coffee isn't that right Re-Heat? Hence why they only need 2 weeks. I look forward to seeing vending machines on crewless flights in the future. I'm sure the CAA can bend the regs a little.
An ear infection isnt contageuos as far as I know but antibiotics are used to treat it. Infections occur from initial colds, etc. BA rule is that you must take them for 24 hours clear of duty then if no side effects, you may fly.
Like Carnage, I know of crew who go sick for fun, unfortunately they create people like me that feel they have to make excuses for a sprained foot or a bunged up ear.
Rant over.
Last edited by sixmilehighclub; 9th Mar 2005 at 19:09.
Alba Gu Brath
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Merseyside
Age: 55
Posts: 738
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps the answer is to halt the shorthaul operation
Anyway, back on track. If the CC unions think that 22.9 days sick per year is acceptable then they are living in a different world. Sick leave is not part of your annual entitlement, contrary to what some people seem to think.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But then the crew are only there just to serve tea and coffee isn't that right Re-Heat?
There is however no legally-required CAA position-holder in cabin crew management over cabin crew who is required to be cabin crew, nor individual licence as such. Perhaps that is the answer to re-instill the safety-related nature of all.
4 weeks training is what most will get in any role in any large company, be it legally required or not. That rather reinforces my point on the transferability of your skills.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: The Deep South (Sussex)
Posts: 783
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It would seem that the only people who support BA cabin crew claims are.....BA cabin crew.
Certainly the BA flight deck (who sometimes earn less) or other airline cabin crew who know just how quickly replacements can be trained and in the job, don't.
Sounds like they should make hay whilst the sun shines...and start collecting four leaf clovers!
Certainly the BA flight deck (who sometimes earn less) or other airline cabin crew who know just how quickly replacements can be trained and in the job, don't.
Sounds like they should make hay whilst the sun shines...and start collecting four leaf clovers!
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see BACX have inherited BA mainline hosties! Look whats happened there. Profitable franchises bought by BA and F~~~d up!!
Get rid of em!!
Pay them the industry going rate and allow the airline to compete, especially on short haul where competition is red hot.
That applies to CC, Dispatches, Tug Drivers, Check-in staff etc etc.
There is no room for hangers on who think they have a right to a job that pays more than some of our countries nurses for example.
Sort em out Willie!!
Get rid of em!!
Pay them the industry going rate and allow the airline to compete, especially on short haul where competition is red hot.
That applies to CC, Dispatches, Tug Drivers, Check-in staff etc etc.
There is no room for hangers on who think they have a right to a job that pays more than some of our countries nurses for example.
Sort em out Willie!!
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: manchester
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Paid more than nurses heh?
(Dont be stupid.)
Long haul cabin crew at BA can get £1700 pcm in allowances alone.
Add that to a basic salary and they take home more than doctors.
A CSD will NETT £3300 per month .
( for ref; hospital doctors will not make that unless they make it (after 10 years) to consultant level which is a whole different kettle of fish)
(Dont be stupid.)
Long haul cabin crew at BA can get £1700 pcm in allowances alone.
Add that to a basic salary and they take home more than doctors.
A CSD will NETT £3300 per month .
( for ref; hospital doctors will not make that unless they make it (after 10 years) to consultant level which is a whole different kettle of fish)
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shuttleworth. You are talking out of your A***.
I am a CSD, full time with many years of valued service.
I have never nett £3300 a month.
In fact this year I have only just gone into 40% tax.
Just work that out for yourself, either Gordon Brown isn't earning a penny out of me or I'm taking home a fraction of what you think.
I am a CSD, full time with many years of valued service.
I have never nett £3300 a month.
In fact this year I have only just gone into 40% tax.
Just work that out for yourself, either Gordon Brown isn't earning a penny out of me or I'm taking home a fraction of what you think.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only elements that aren't taxed are 64% of meal allowances which are currently hit by the low dollar rate to the pound and DOA's which is only £7.25 a day.
All airlines in the UK have tax reliefs.
All airlines in the UK have tax reliefs.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Seoul
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who would have thought you'd get to be a higher rate tax payer for handing our customer feedback forms and eating first food, my-oh-my you're hard done by. Try comparing what you do to our undervalued nurese/teachers/soldiers/sailors/airmen - I doubt they come anywhere near paying 40% tax even after many years valued service.
Well said sevenforeseven.
Well said sevenforeseven.