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LFPB RWY 07 go-around

Old 14th Oct 2020, 10:05
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chr
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LFPB RWY 07 go-around

Hi guys

stupid question , beeing on ILS rwy 07 LFPB let's say 5.0 NM LBG alt 1770 ft you decide to perform go-around any reason , should you go down to at least 700 ft to make a right turn at MAP ?


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Old 14th Oct 2020, 10:11
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It's a long time since I've flow, and even longer since I've flown a procedure, but the instruction to "Adhere strictly to missed approach procedure due to proximity of final approach RWY 08R Charles-de-Gaulle" would suggest you descend to 700' first. That said, I guess it also depends on your reason for deciding a missed approach is needed at D5.0 LBG and what conversations you're having with ATC at the time.

Last edited by golfbananajam; 14th Oct 2020 at 10:12. Reason: typos corrected
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 10:38
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I read it as 700 ft max until 21D CLM, and 'Do not turn before passing MAP'. If I need to go around at 5D, I'd continue down the ILS, level off at 700, follow LOC to the MAP and fly the turn.
That is, if the reason for the go around allows me to fly this, otherwise a word with ATC and some vectoring is a way better option, and I would guess ATC would be on it if you say 'Going around' at 5 miles.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 10:49
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Last time I flew this approach in really bad weather (before COVID - haven't been there this year at all) the guys in the plane ahead of us, belonging to a well known fractional ownership company, asked for a simplified go-around procedure before even commencing the approach. And got something like "in case of missed approach turn right on heading 090 and climb to 3000ft". I thoiught that was a smart move and we were about to ask for the same but then the RVR improved significantly and it wasn't necessary any more. But next time I will surely ask early.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 13:25
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Fly in here frequently. During T&E analysis before launching, this in particular is a good one when briefing with FO’s. Good question by the OP.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 13:46
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I know someone who was given this exact plate to brief in an interview recently. Obviously, the assessor wants to see how you interpret it - but in real life it might be worth asking ATC, as the colleague from one of the previous posts suggested.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 13:55
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Not the same runway admittably but I once had a go around on rwy 27 LBG and it's equally ambiguoius G/A procedure. This was also pre having everything in the FMS. As soon as it was announced "going around" the return call was to contact CDG app who radar vectored us around the houses back to a LBG ILS. So I kinda think the go around published proceedure is just filling the legal requirement to publish one. In reality, it is much easier.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 13:59
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I've had to execute a go-around from minima on this approach - almost immediately ATC instructed us to turn south and climb to 3000' and re-contact CDG approach. But in the absence of ATC instruction/blocked frequency etc then I believe your assumption is correct - you'd have to descend to 700' if you were higher at the point of going missed.

Important note to bear in mind is 700' is 480' AGL which may be below your autopilot engage height - hand flown missed approach....? Depending on type.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 14:41
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It would be easier all round if MAP was 'Go-around instructions will be passed by ATC' especially in LOVIS.

I've lost count of the waste of time and breath briefing some complex go-around only to be told - 'climb straight ahead to x000' or somesuch.

Procedural environment go for the published version - radar environment, dynamic situation - leave it to ATC to tell you and that expectation should be published on the chart.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 15:35
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Originally Posted by judge11 View Post
It would be easier all round if MAP was 'Go-around instructions will be passed by ATC' especially in LOVIS.

I've lost count of the waste of time and breath briefing some complex go-around only to be told - 'climb straight ahead to x000' or somesuch.

Procedural environment go for the published version - radar environment, dynamic situation - leave it to ATC to tell you and that expectation should be published on the chart.
Never considered briefing a missed approach a waste of time personally, complex or not. But always discussed alternative options available to us; in the event of...
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 16:01
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The guys are right 700ft is the magic number. On case of a Go-around you have to climb or descent to 700.
Sure ATC will give you something else if you ask prior. But if you donít, thatís what you are going for.
Had this one several times in the Sim. Briefed it, flown the ILS, got a go-around command around 1500 and started to climb. Hard not to forget that a go-around can also be a further descent.
Problem on this is the traffic at CDG as it is too close to LBG.
CDG is also ruling the landing direction in LBG.
Be careful on this.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 17:29
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Going around from 1770ft indeed involves a descent at or above the glideslope down to 700ft to adhere to the published missed approach procedure. Same stuff at London City, approach starts at 3000ft and missed approach altitude is 2000ft, so again, descent if above.
Particularly tricky situations to develop as why you go-around from that altitude. Think of windshear, technical malfunctions etc. many possibilities which may prevent you from descending to 700ft and making those 185kts in the turn. Thorough briefing required for these kind of procedures, accompanied with some serious T&E management.
Easiest solution would be to contact ATC and tell them your intentions in situations like that, they're there to help you!
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 17:39
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Bear in mind that this MAP also caters for the very unlikely case of a total loss of comms
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 17:41
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A difficult one as if you are commencing an approach in marginal vis. you may not descend below 1000' agl if you do not have the required RVR. Descending to 700' would put you at 480' above the airfield. I would maintain 1220' and at 21D CLM continue climb.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 18:18
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Originally Posted by PaulH1 View Post
A difficult one as if you are commencing an approach in marginal vis. you may not descend below 1000' agl if you do not have the required RVR. Descending to 700' would put you at 480' above the airfield. I would maintain 1220' and at 21D CLM continue climb.

I don't think this would be correct. You are not continuing the approach below 1000ft AAL, you are executing the missed approach as published. And that means going to 700ft MSL. That's also how it's coded in the nav data base.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 21:50
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It would be bad airmanship to descend to such a low altitude in IMC. I won't be doing this. In my company these MAPs at Le Bourget have been discussed at length and I won't be descending if I need to go around from an altitude above. Normally you go missed at a lower altitude, because you cannot see the runway or because you hit windshear.
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Old 15th Oct 2020, 07:02
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Originally Posted by EatMyShorts! View Post
It would be bad airmanship to descend to such a low altitude in IMC. I won't be doing this. In my company these MAPs at Le Bourget have been discussed at length and I won't be descending if I need to go around from an altitude above. Normally you go missed at a lower altitude, because you cannot see the runway or because you hit windshear.
So, what has been the outcome of these discussions? Did they involve Paris ATC? Did they result in guidance staring not to fly the MA as published?

If you are concerned about not being able to safely execute the published missed then you should get different MA instructions prior to the event.

I do agree that this is not a desirable procedure but if briefed and perhaps even practiced in the sim it can be done safely. When briefing it the emphasis should not only be on the lateral and vertical profile but also how to fly it. Which modes, use of automation, configuration changes etc. If you are going down on the ILS all you have to do initially is continue on the ILS down to the initial MA altitude. You need to make sure the FMS sequences past the MAP and that the aircraft levels off at the MAA.

In the aircraft I fly there is an "activate MA" prompt on the procedures page of the FMS. That takes care of lateral NAV. Hitting TO/GA does the same thing but then I would have to disconnect the AT and select an appropriate vertical mode such as VS, keeping the last vertical speed, typically -700ft/min or so. I brief to leave the configuration alone until we start climbing in accordance with the procedure. At that point I call for the G/A flap setting and upon positive rate, gear up. From then on it's pretty much a normal go around.

Basically this MA if initiated from above the MAA requires no initial change in thrust, flight path and configuration. With that in mind, it doesn't have to turn into an ugly mess.
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Old 15th Oct 2020, 07:52
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On my last type, hitting TOGA would disconnect the AP. Aircraft limitation was 700í AGL for AP engagement whereas this is 480í AGL. Something to bear in mind when briefing modes? Weíre talking technicalities here (funny cos the AP can remain engaged normally down to 80í) but itís worth thinking about.
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Old 15th Oct 2020, 08:27
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Hello!

Originally Posted by 733driver View Post
In the aircraft I fly there is an "activate MA" ....
In the aircraft I fly the FMS will do nothing for you at all (and there is no autothrottle or even FADEC). It will have "CLM" as the one and only point of the missed approach procedure. Which means that this procedure has to be flown on "green needles" with several changes of VOR and DME frequencies and associated course settings within a short period of time. The pilot monitoring will be quite busy "on the phone" and occupied with moving levers and switches and not much capacity left to watch what you are doing. And all this below some obstacles shown on the chart in uncomfortably close vicinity. The best possible airmanship is really an early call for a safer procedure.
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Old 15th Oct 2020, 08:56
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
Hello!



In the aircraft I fly the FMS will do nothing for you at all (and there is no autothrottle or even FADEC). It will have "CLM" as the one and only point of the missed approach procedure. Which means that this procedure has to be flown on "green needles" with several changes of VOR and DME frequencies and associated course settings within a short period of time. The pilot monitoring will be quite busy "on the phone" and occupied with moving levers and switches and not much capacity left to watch what you are doing. And all this below some obstacles shown on the chart in uncomfortably close vicinity. The best possible airmanship is really an early call for a safer procedure.
Absolutely. Especially in cases like yours. I'm surprised your FMS does not have the full MA procedure. Never came across this in 20+ years and multiple different types. Mind telling me what you fly? I'm just curious. I'm in the Latitude but have flown various biz jets with honeywell and Collins FMSs as well as the 737 classic. As far as I can remember the missed approach was usually in the nav data base of all these types.
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