From low cost airline to executive aviation
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I would think very deeply before making that move to the GA. Been there myself for 9 years. I must admit, i did not fly for a well known outfit with big shiny privet jets and was flying a small jet. The good thing is you see a lot. We were flying to places that you would normally never visit. But like everything, novelty wears off after a while and you start thinking about other things that are getting more important to you. Lifestyle, roster, money, social life and yes, having hobbies without being disturbed.
Afterwards i joined the airline. First pax airline, then cargo airline. BEST CHOICE EVER!!!!!! I must admit: it is also not all that perfect and sometimes tedious. Yes we do fly all the time the same routes and yes, sometimes i miss those GA flights to these odd places. But the quality of life i have now: much better and much more stability.
I would say it is for an outsider difficult to get in GA and flying immediate a Gulfstream or Global express. The best GA jobs are simply not advertised and it is all about connections. You will high likely start at the bottom, like a citation or king air (which can be also fun!!!). You will get to see the bits and pieces and everything that involves GA. And you have to be extreme flexible and planning your private life is almost impossible. As a younster who is fresh in the job this is not hard, but for an old timer like me......
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Most of the GA outfits are just crap. You simply dont want to work for them. Low salary and they push you all the time. In the end, it is just work. Nothing more. Perhaps 1 exception: Netjets. In general i hear a lot of goods stuff about them. But i must warn you. Even though Netjets is a great place, if you ever get made redundant, you are left behind with a useless typerating. So make sure you keep yourself current on that Airbus/Boeing.
My best advice is to stay with your airline gig. Try to go parttime and explore GA as an freelancer. Betting on 2 horses never hurts.
Afterwards i joined the airline. First pax airline, then cargo airline. BEST CHOICE EVER!!!!!! I must admit: it is also not all that perfect and sometimes tedious. Yes we do fly all the time the same routes and yes, sometimes i miss those GA flights to these odd places. But the quality of life i have now: much better and much more stability.
I would say it is for an outsider difficult to get in GA and flying immediate a Gulfstream or Global express. The best GA jobs are simply not advertised and it is all about connections. You will high likely start at the bottom, like a citation or king air (which can be also fun!!!). You will get to see the bits and pieces and everything that involves GA. And you have to be extreme flexible and planning your private life is almost impossible. As a younster who is fresh in the job this is not hard, but for an old timer like me......
.Most of the GA outfits are just crap. You simply dont want to work for them. Low salary and they push you all the time. In the end, it is just work. Nothing more. Perhaps 1 exception: Netjets. In general i hear a lot of goods stuff about them. But i must warn you. Even though Netjets is a great place, if you ever get made redundant, you are left behind with a useless typerating. So make sure you keep yourself current on that Airbus/Boeing.
My best advice is to stay with your airline gig. Try to go parttime and explore GA as an freelancer. Betting on 2 horses never hurts.
Join Date: Mar 2004
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One thing that has sometimes great bearing on you as an employee, is how you are covered in case of illness - you know, not the flu, but something that might put you out of action and your medical so long that you`d have to renew you rating as an example. Thats where you USUALLY are better covered in a bigger operation or as the employee of a company with a workers council. Is loss of license included or paid for in case you have your own ? OTOH I have a friend who started his airline flying after been lucky enough to have flown a KingAir - then, when is seniority number as a co was #2, the place (Aero-Lloyd in EDDF) closed shop, he went to LTU, was scheduled for a command a few years on, then....LTU went bust. Moved to Air Berlin, the same play unfolded, he nowadays flies for a Spanish outfit, which seems to be...welll.....not the very best place to work. But he made his fourth stripe there finally, after about 25 yrs in Aviation. That could happen to you - and if you are in a big company that goes bust, suddenly you are swept out of the place with HUNDREDS of your fellow airman....Eurowings could be put out of action when Carsten Spohr has a hickup. Granted, for the time being there seem to be job opportunities, but for how long is that going to last ? Economic downturn anyone ?
To predict or just give good career advice in Aviation in Europe sounds like a oxymoron to me, especially with all that idiotic climate stuff etc going on. For us GA types I think the future is less bright - Eindhoven are shutting down GA completely in 2025 IIRC and Dublin are thinking of the same, Amsterdam has a plan too. Portugal has put taxes on GA in place and getting slots in certain place there (and a lot of other place) is getting increasingly harder by the day.
The lobby power airlines have is CERTAINLY way bigger than what business/executive aviation can bring to bear - and that is going to hurt us hard, I´m sure. In part that is a problem within the 'community' NJE/FleaxJet/Vista play a different game than say corporate FDs, cause they see each other as competitors and are way too stupid (all sides) to understand what the divide and conquer strategy really is. In part its the populistic nature of our politics, where it is so easy (and frankly the lifeline of many politicians) to foster greed and envy towards the people sitting in our back. They are evil and thus their airplanes are as well, to say it in simple terms....
Last edited by His dudeness; 14th Jan 2024 at 21:16.
Well said, His dudeness
As I wrote before, I first worked in the airlines and looked down (you and stupid) on biz aviation. Once I accidentally got into Netjets I really enjoyed, 20 years it is now! If you are an airline pilot and get bored there, the sorts of Netjets and Flexjet are an excellent option. But be prepared to fly on tiny aircraft for a long time, although the remuneration is really good. The company pension scheme still leaves things to be desired, so you better use your extra salary to organize your own stuff. Should these two items already be a deal breaker, then better stay in the airlines.
As I wrote before, I first worked in the airlines and looked down (you and stupid) on biz aviation. Once I accidentally got into Netjets I really enjoyed, 20 years it is now! If you are an airline pilot and get bored there, the sorts of Netjets and Flexjet are an excellent option. But be prepared to fly on tiny aircraft for a long time, although the remuneration is really good. The company pension scheme still leaves things to be desired, so you better use your extra salary to organize your own stuff. Should these two items already be a deal breaker, then better stay in the airlines.
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Thanks for all your advice!
You're right. I have to evaluate the facts for me personally. No one can do that for me...
It would be so much easier if I wouldn't have so many choices here, but there are so many chances.
I think this job in the Biz Av isn't too bad. From what I've heard this company is already at the upper edge of the GA spectrum. With the possible move to a Gulfstream in a few years that shouldn't be that bad. Sounds for me personally like loads of fun compared to scheduled air service. I see it in the same way as EatMyShorts!. Technically I would prefer bizjets to old ac. like B737 and A320. I know one working for NJE and he suggested to move later on to NJE, if this job isn't for me. He seams to be also quite happy at NJE. Could be a way.
On the other hand the airlines offer huge benefits from the beginning as fully paid insurance, great compensation, travel opportunities, stability (but NJ also tries to provide these apparently)...
As you can see I'm more into BizAv as my feeling / heart or whatever says so. But I didn't fully decide yet.
At my current age of 27 a good financial perspective would be beneficial (living, wife, etc.) so this is fundamental for me right now. I think I'll try to get an exemplary duty schedule and talk to prospective colleagues from the cockpit there.
You're right. I have to evaluate the facts for me personally. No one can do that for me...
It would be so much easier if I wouldn't have so many choices here, but there are so many chances.
I think this job in the Biz Av isn't too bad. From what I've heard this company is already at the upper edge of the GA spectrum. With the possible move to a Gulfstream in a few years that shouldn't be that bad. Sounds for me personally like loads of fun compared to scheduled air service. I see it in the same way as EatMyShorts!. Technically I would prefer bizjets to old ac. like B737 and A320. I know one working for NJE and he suggested to move later on to NJE, if this job isn't for me. He seams to be also quite happy at NJE. Could be a way.
On the other hand the airlines offer huge benefits from the beginning as fully paid insurance, great compensation, travel opportunities, stability (but NJ also tries to provide these apparently)...
As you can see I'm more into BizAv as my feeling / heart or whatever says so. But I didn't fully decide yet.
At my current age of 27 a good financial perspective would be beneficial (living, wife, etc.) so this is fundamental for me right now. I think I'll try to get an exemplary duty schedule and talk to prospective colleagues from the cockpit there.
Last edited by flylevel390; 15th Jan 2024 at 14:19.
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It’s not too hard to go from airlines to biz av, it is comparatively much harder to go to airlines from biz. Personally for a bunch of reasons I would recommend airlines as the place to learn. It’s safer, training standards are higher and if you decide you like it - you can’t stay or if you still have the desire for biz, then you can still go that way. It’s the least risk to your career.
if on the other hand you’ve made up your mind, then ignore me and be you.
for context, I flew 18 months in a terrible turboprop outfit “airline” then went biz and never looked back. Airlines just ain’t for me, I love managing the craziness and the level of autonomy that I couldn’t get in an airline. That being said I much prefer the safety and training in a bigger company like NJE, which is why I’m happy here.
if on the other hand you’ve made up your mind, then ignore me and be you.
for context, I flew 18 months in a terrible turboprop outfit “airline” then went biz and never looked back. Airlines just ain’t for me, I love managing the craziness and the level of autonomy that I couldn’t get in an airline. That being said I much prefer the safety and training in a bigger company like NJE, which is why I’m happy here.
Exactly what outfits like Netjets and Flexjet offer. An airline like operation of aircraft that are far more fun to fly and operate than those dull Boeings and Airbus'. I jumped from the airlines to biz aviation exactly 20 years ago and do not regret it a single second! Some people are made for airlines with a fixed set of destinations that they can prepare for hours, days, weeks before they fly there, or they'd feel uncomfortable. Others would get bored to death by this and prefer a more dynamic environment. And, yes, there are many GA operators that are great to start your career with, but you'll need to jump **** ASAP to advance your career and life. We are not talking about those jobs. We are talking about jobs in GA that pay well, that don't make you sit on standby on a regular basis, that offer a stable roster and enough rest time and that stick to the rules and regulations.
I never found flying the 727, MD80, 757 and 767 ‘boring’ and we never had a ‘fixed set of destinations’
Our schedule was bid for but then could be modified as desired
With a worldwide route system the variety was outstanding
I´ll be the devils advocate, sorta...
If you care looking at an increasingly unpleasant passenger crowd at the finger and never really see and have time to explore foreign cities and countries - then the airline is the way to go. A lot offer even being home every night. "Hi Honey, were have you been today and how was your day?" ", "well Postion 493 at FRA to Gate24 in Mallorca and back, then had the police come and take a unruly drunkard off my aircraft, then I flew to Edinburgh and back with even more drunks on board"
If you like to meet (some) interesting people and are an explorer - go to the business jet side of things. "Hi Honey, were have you beentoday and how was your week ? "Well monday mornin I flew to Cairo and visited the pyramids, courtesy of the company, then I had dinner with the boss in the 5 Star Hotel we stayed in and the next day, at a civilized hour, we took off for Accra in Ghana, stayed 2 nights in a 5 Star with a fantastic pool and restaurant poolside and then we took of for Fez at 0900 in the morning and visited the medina and had lamb with humus in the evening under a full moon. Next day we took of at 1400 back home, then I did a toilet service, catered the airplane up, put it in the hangar, checked the oil and tire pressure, did my paperwork, the flight planning for the next big trip, hugged the aircraft and wished it a good rest, closed the hangar doors and now I´m here to be at home for 6 days before we go flying again - if the company does not change its mind, that is..."
Thats my take on my work life in a corporate flight department these days. Business aviation is a multifacetted world, very few operations are like the one next door, just like Ryanair is - I guess - really different than say Lufthansa.
If you care looking at an increasingly unpleasant passenger crowd at the finger and never really see and have time to explore foreign cities and countries - then the airline is the way to go. A lot offer even being home every night. "Hi Honey, were have you been today and how was your day?" ", "well Postion 493 at FRA to Gate24 in Mallorca and back, then had the police come and take a unruly drunkard off my aircraft, then I flew to Edinburgh and back with even more drunks on board"
If you like to meet (some) interesting people and are an explorer - go to the business jet side of things. "Hi Honey, were have you been
Thats my take on my work life in a corporate flight department these days. Business aviation is a multifacetted world, very few operations are like the one next door, just like Ryanair is - I guess - really different than say Lufthansa.
Never had to deal with passengers, they’re behind the cockpit door and taken care of by professionals
As to staying in nice hotels in exotic spots that’s normal with a good airline however I don’t want to hang around them for days, I’d prefer to be at home
Last edited by stilton; 19th Jan 2024 at 08:19.
According to my logbook I have been to over 360 destinations, worldwide. In my previous job as airline donkey I had maybe 50 destinations (which is already quite good for a European regional carrier).
On top of it, it is mostly interesting and positive to deal with a certain breed of people, except for the odd a$$hole, but they exist everywhere.
Which means you fit perfectly for the airlines and that is fine. There are other personalities who'd find your way of thinking and operating quite boring. Live and let live.
On top of it, it is mostly interesting and positive to deal with a certain breed of people, except for the odd a$$hole, but they exist everywhere.
Which means you fit perfectly for the airlines and that is fine. There are other personalities who'd find your way of thinking and operating quite boring. Live and let live.
According to my logbook I have been to over 360 destinations, worldwide. In my previous job as airline donkey I had maybe 50 destinations (which is already quite good for a European regional carrier).
On top of it, it is mostly interesting and positive to deal with a certain breed of people, except for the odd a$$hole, but they exist everywhere.
Which means you fit perfectly for the airlines and that is fine. There are other personalities who'd find your way of thinking and operating quite boring. Live and let live.
On top of it, it is mostly interesting and positive to deal with a certain breed of people, except for the odd a$$hole, but they exist everywhere.
Which means you fit perfectly for the airlines and that is fine. There are other personalities who'd find your way of thinking and operating quite boring. Live and let live.
Dont really understand your point, been to more airports, so what ?
Doesnt affect the paycheck
Big difference between working for a European regional carrier or a U.S. Major
Don’t know what an ‘airline donkey’ is
Seems like you’re trying to convince yourself of something
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Dont really understand your point, been to more airports, so what ?
Doesnt affect the paycheck
Big difference between working for a European regional carrier or a U.S. Major
Don’t know what an ‘airline donkey’ is
Seems like you’re trying to convince yourself of something
Doesnt affect the paycheck
Big difference between working for a European regional carrier or a U.S. Major
Don’t know what an ‘airline donkey’ is
Seems like you’re trying to convince yourself of something
Some others want adventures, something different every day, not knowing where you’ll end up that night considering the very variable schedule, flying to many different airport and mostly never feel completely in a comfort zone, which instead happens in an airline.
We’re all different personalities and like different things, that’s all!
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As to staying in nice hotels in exotic spots that’s normal with a good airline however I don’t want to hang around them for days, I’d prefer to be at home
Last but not least: working an airline in Europe vs. the US is vastly different, as is bizjet flying. My comments are made fro a european perspective after 34 yrs in business aviation. I do know some people in 'the airlines' very well, namely copilots that did their first baby steps in 'my' cockpit. One of them is PIC on 777s in airfreight, one flies A340s and is now in a regional, the other guy was with Emirates and now drives a 320 around Europe. One is with NetJets finally after many years in command. I talk regularly to these folks and think I know the other side(s) a bit.
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Thanks angel.pilot, I meant it exactly as you explained it as well. I guess stilton 's CRM was outstanding and his first officers loved flying with him.
and thanks for opening up previous topic questions. It was useful for me.
